Lionhilt Broadsword 17th Century?

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Hello Together,


Some month ago I got this interesting sword. It was covered by a thick patina (see first picture) which was easy to remove. Surprisingly the condition under the patina was quite good. It is 90cm long, the blade is 77cm. The Guard is cutted from iron, no iron casting. There was a thumb-ring on the shell-guard, removed in the old times and the blade is signed with the "passauer Wolf" and the "magical number" 1518. I found a similar piece (converning the lion-guard) at Hermann-Historica, Auction 62/63 -> a selection of collectibles -> Hunting Hangers Lot Nr. 2330c http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_...ion-62-63.html


I got three different opinions on this piece:
- "maybe historism (19th cent.) while using a blade of the 17th."
- "Officers Felddegen, around 1660, the guard in the style of Gottfried Leygebe"
- "Guard around 1580, Northitalian, the blade marriaged with the guard around 1600"

My opinion: Due to searching a lot of catalogues etc. I think the second opinion (around 1660) is the most likely one. But I couldn´t find an identical or nearly identical piece. In my eyes evidence against historism is the removed thumb-ring and the deep nick/cut on one of the stirrups (sse picture), which seems to originate from another edge weapon, also as this potential hit bended the stirrup out of shape (see last pic).

I would be very interested in your opinion about this peace. Maybe you can also help me to find out about the geographical context of the sword.

Thanks and best regards,
Andi

Fantastic sword, congratulations! Can you share with us how you managed to get rid of all that rust/patina to reveal such beautiful detail?

[Jim McDougall]

Great thread from 'the old days'!!!
Mark, perfectly illustrates what an astute collector you are, and how much we have learned with the things you have shared here over so many years.
Outstanding Cap'n!!!

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Cap'n Jim! Mine pales in comparison to the original starter of this thread, but it is interesting to note that the hilt on my more primitive piece is made from tropical carved orangy-colored wood. These Dutch lion hangers and swords all date to the 1650-1700 period, right during the time of the Anglo-Dutch Wars. This conflict mostly took place in the Spice Islands and there-abouts. It seems mine might have been fashioned in such a place for a Dutch sailor or captain, as this style of sword was, as noted, carried by some of the heads of the VOC.

[AHorsa]

Thank you gentlemen.

I cleaned it with a small wire brush (for gimlets). Luckily the rust or patina was thick but very easy to remove. On other items it didn´t work with that method.

Intererstingly there are remains of glasslike black material in some of the carves, which makes me think that maybe the structure was elaborated with a Niello technique.

Best regards
Andreas

[AHorsa]

Dear all,

allow me to fetch up this old thread. It´s now nearly 10 Years I own this piece and it still won´t let me go. From time to time I do a bit of research on it and my biggest dream is to find a painting showing it´s owner with the sword I know it is very very unlikely, but I am sure such a painting once existed. The question is: did it survive and is it listed somewhere...

But anyway: I just stumbled over a picture I saved as a reference years ago with the comment "Sweden, 1660-90". I´ve found several swords with similar lion cross-guard, many of them indicates the Netherlands as origin but there are also pieces with other provenience. But this is the first time I found this wave-like decorations on the guards. Also the tool used to decorate the stylized head seems to be similar to the one used to form the lions coat. Maybe this can be a another hint to its origin.
Sadly I can´t remember where I saved it from, only that it was a (Swedish?) museums online gallery without more information.

Does anyone of you know similar examples?

Kind regards
Andreas

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Dear all,

allow me to fetch up this old thread. It´s now nearly 10 Years I own this piece and it still won´t let me go. From time to time I do a bit of research on it and my biggest dream is to find a painting showing it´s owner with the sword I know it is very very unlikely, but I am sure such a painting once existed. The question is: did it survive and is it listed somewhere...

But anyway: I just stumbled over a picture I saved as a reference years ago with the comment "Sweden, 1660-90". I´ve found several swords with similar lion cross-guard, many of them indicates the Netherlands as origin but there are also pieces with other provenience. But this is the first time I found this wave-like decorations on the guards. Also the tool used to decorate the stylized head seems to be similar to the one used to form the lions coat. Maybe this can be a another hint to its origin.
Sadly I can´t remember where I saved it from, only that it was a (Swedish?) museums online gallery without more information.

Does anyone of you know similar examples?

Kind regards
Andreas

Not sure how ”Swedish” this piece could be. The lion as an animal was frequently used to represent the Kingdom of Sweden. Swords were mostly imported by Sweden from Netherlands and Germany until domestic manufacturing was established in Vira bruk, which had formal monopoly rights in military sword blade production 1635-1775. The smiths were imported from Germany like Caspar Kohl, Hans Danckwardt, Jurgen Ollich and Johan Bertram. There was also some sword production in Arboga, Norrköping, and Kvarnbacka-Wedevåg. These swords tended to be quite simple in design but functional. So if your sword was used in Sweden I guess it would have been made in Netherlands or Germany and imported.

[AHorsa]

Dear Victrix,

thank you very much for your important information on Swedish sword production! These information and the fact that it was found in Northern Germany make it indeed not so likely, that it is a Swedish piece. But it underlines the good possibility to be Dutch.

Kind regards
Andreas

Originally Posted by Victrix

Not sure how ”Swedish” this piece could be. The lion as an animal was frequently used to represent the Kingdom of Sweden. Swords were mostly imported by Sweden from Netherlands and Germany until domestic manufacturing was established in Vira bruk, which had formal monopoly rights in military sword blade production 1635-1775. The smiths were imported from Germany like Caspar Kohl, Hans Danckwardt, Jurgen Ollich and Johan Bertram. There was also some sword production in Arboga, Norrköping, and Kvarnbacka-Wedevåg. These swords tended to be quite simple in design but functional. So if your sword was used in Sweden I guess it would have been made in Netherlands or Germany and imported.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

... But it underlines the good possibility to be Dutch. ...

The Blade, at least, looks Dutch from the two tulips stamp. The more I look, the more tulipy the flowers look.

[AHorsa]

That´s a pretty interesting point! I did never pay attention to the form of the flower. Just looked at it as a flower pot mark. It indeed looks pretty much like the flower pot is filled with tulips! On the other hand the running wolf mark is mostly attributed to Solingen...

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by AHorsa

That´s a pretty interesting point! I did never pay attention to the form of the flower. Just looked at it as a flower pot mark. It indeed looks pretty much like the flower pot is filled with tulips! On the other hand the running wolf mark is mostly attributed to Solingen...

A Photo of the wolf would be nice.

[AHorsa]

Of course

[kronckew]

Thanks, wolf & Tulips add a conundrum to the enigma.