Officers sword pattern 1796 for Light Cavalry?

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Calien

Radboud could you explain that a bit? When I get home I can take some better pictures of the scabbard.

Hopefully these photos better explain what I mean, they are all from early 19th Century British Cavalry Officer swords.

The first one is a Osborn 1796 Pattern light Cavalry from before 1801, the second is a Gill 1796 Pattern light cavalry dating to around 1817. You can see how the top split ring has broken, leaving half of it.

The last one is from a 1796 Pattern Heavy cavalry officer’s sword for dismounted service, you can clearly see the split ring and the seam along the underside of the scabbard where the two sides of the scabbard meet.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Calien

... i do have issues with the dates though because officially Toledo was shut down there until 1814, but the British did have control of it during several months in 1812.

Calien, i have burnt my eyelashes searching the Web, under various contexts, on such British control of the factory during some time 1812, but found no results. Can you give us a clue as to where we can learn that ?
Thank you.

[midelburgo]

Calien sword is very interesting. I have seen blades marked in 1812 as made in Cadiz. And Toledo in 1813. And I have a Toledo 1814 blade. The obscured word before Fbca shall be Rl (Real).

I think it is copying a French model.

I do not think the grip and hilt were made at Toledo. Possibly they were recicled from another sword or mounted later. At that time Toledo was not using fishskin. And I have not seen those hilt ears at a Toledo sword.

[Calien]

Originally Posted by fernando

Calien, i have burnt my eyelashes searching the Web, under various contexts, on such British control of the factory during some time 1812, but found no results. Can you give us a clue as to where we can learn that ?
Thank you.

What I meant to say is that after the battle of Salamanca the British liberated central Spain including Madrid and Toledo for a period of about 5 months, after the French concentrated their army he retreated to Portugal again until 1813. So Toledo itself was under British/Spanish control for a few months that year.

[Calien]

Rad this particular scabbard and guard are somewhat unique, Ive never seen those rings on sabers made in spain just earlier english ones.

[Calien]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

Calien sword is very interesting. I have seen blades marked in 1812 as made in Cadiz. And Toledo in 1813. And I have a Toledo 1814 blade. The obscured word before Fbca shall be Rl (Real).

I think it is copying a French model.

I do not think the grip and hilt were made at Toledo. Possibly they were recicled from another sword or mounted later. At that time Toledo was not using fishskin. And I have not seen those hilt ears at a Toledo sword.

I would love to see some pictures of those samples, its very rare to see anything made in spain during these years so im rather curious.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Calien

What I meant to say is that after the battle of Salamanca the British liberated central Spain including Madrid and Toledo for a period of about 5 months, after the French concentrated their army he retreated to Portugal again until 1813. So Toledo itself was under British/Spanish control for a few months that year.

Indeed the battles of Salamanca and Talavera were a strategic move in war.
However i would guess that, the factory of Toledo having been emptied from equipment and personel to tansfer all to Seville (and later Cadiz) arguably such facilities would be operational during that short period. Temporary British control of the city would no be the same thing as having weapons being fabricated; no tools, no mills ... no resources.
Interesting how a Toledan blogger cares more about the Spanish coming back to the city as he doesn't mention the British, who were potentially more presential in neighbour Madrid.

"Toledo continuó estando ocupada por tropas tras la retirada francesa en agosto de 1812. Llegaron las tropas españolas, “los brigantes de Palarea, los del Abuelo y las del Comisario de Yepes”. Se hicieron fiestas por la proclamación de la Constitución y el fin de la Guerra...pero la situación seguía siendo grave. Ahora la ciudad debía acomodar a las tropas españolas, pero los mayores alojamientos habían sido destruidos y la situación de penuria azotaba todos los barrios."

Toledo continued to be occupied by troops after the French withdrawal in August 1812. The Spanish troops arrived, “the brigantes de Palarea, those of the Grandfather and those of the Comisario de Yepes”. Parties were held for the proclamation of the Constitution and the end of the War ... but the situation was still serious. Now the city had to accommodate the Spanish troops, but the main lodgings had been destroyed and the situation of hardship plagued all the neighborhoods

[fernando]

I know i am a pain in the bottom but ...
After a zillion searches i find results not better than this (type of) blade having been introduced in Spanish swords earlier than in the mid XIX century. Call it espadas (sables) alfanjadas, a la Turca, you name it. How come the yelman was present in the low(est) 1800's ?. What am i missing here ? Assuming Calien's blade is Toledan, can anyone help me find written work referring to these blades existing in Toledo as soon as posted and discussed here ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Calien

... its very rare to see anything made in spain during these years so im rather curious.

Calvó shows us a sword inscribed CADIZ. CALLAR Y OBRAR ( Shut up and work). AÑO D 1811.


.

[Calien]

wow very interesting, this is clearly a sword after the 1803 british flank officer saber. First time I see the same ears as on mine, smaller and more of a half circle rather than a half oval like most british made 1796s.

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by Calien

I would love to see some pictures of those samples, its very rare to see anything made in spain during these years so im rather curious.

I will put a light cavalry and a light infantry examples from Cadiz 1811.


Then a couple of Toledo 1814 Line cavalry.

I could not find Toledo/Cadiz 1813, Although I found a couple of Cadiz with lost date, and a 1812 no clear if Cadiz (probably) or Toledo (unlikely).

[midelburgo]

I would like to take advantage of this already going thread.

I just won this, from Spain. I will say it is a Chasseur sabre from about 1805, but I am not sure of the country. It does not look French or Austrian to me.

Has it a 1796 blade? or it is too curved?

[Calien]

Wow these are amazing! That flank officer definitely has the same style tip or very similar, are these yours?

Originally Posted by midelburgo

I will put a light cavalry and a light infantry examples from Cadiz 1811.


Then a couple of Toledo 1814 Line cavalry.

I could not find Toledo/Cadiz 1813, Although I found a couple of Cadiz with lost date, and a 1812 no clear if Cadiz (probably) or Toledo (unlikely).

[Calien]

Reviving this older thread with this amazing sample I got last night off a French website. Having a little trouble getting a hit on the crest but the model is fantastic. Samuel Brunn was around from 1797 to 1820 making top end guns and sabers (On par with Prusser) after the war he hit hard times and ended up bankrupt. As far as the crest goes I have not gotten any hits, clearly this officer was a freemason so that's one clue, and I'm not 100% sure but I think a crown is also not very common. If anyone recognizes it please let me know. Thank you and enjoy.

[Radboud]

Wonderful quality on the etching, I wonder if it wasn't an export sword. I've seen an example of a Dutch naval officer's sword by Prosser, so it is possible that Brunn exported as well.

[Radboud]

Another sword in this 'fashion style.'

I don't think that we can conclusively call these swords 1796 Pattern light cavalry sabres. There are too many variations (the 1796 LC is a pattern after all) and a lot of specific examples that can be attributed to a regimental pattern.

This sword is very light and has a short un-fullered blade. It could be a flank officer's or a light cavalry officer's dress sword or just having belonged to a militia officer. There are too many options to ever be sure.

Weight (sans scabbard) 530 grams
LOA: 865 mm
Blade length 745 mm

[Calien]

I got one very similar Radbound but its a flak officers. I wonder if there is a link.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Calien

I got one very similar Radbound but its a flak officers. I wonder if there is a link.

I’ve asked that very question on another forum using your sword plus another as examples that might suggest a link. Unfortunately the consensus was that it was likely to be fashion rather than any regimental design.

One of my other swords has the same wave pattern etched up the blade edges as well but has triple fullers and etching without the guilding.

[Bryce]

G'day Calien,
I can't help you with the crest, but I do have a couple of swords with similar blade decoration including the "all seeing eye". Originally I thought this style of blade decoration may be regimental, but have since found blades marked to the 12th LD, 7th Hussars and 82nd Regiment of foot. They also come from several different makers. Like you I think that the common link may be Freemasonry, or simply fashion. Do you have a shot showing the whole blade decoration?

Brunn and Prosser marked swords are often very similar if not identical. As the two were neighbours I have often wondered if the swords came out of the same workshop.
Cheers,
Bryce