Tulwar for comment - Page 2

Jens Nordlunde · 11th October 2019, 03:42 PM

Kubur's blade should be turned like this.

Khanjar1, to make it easier please show the round mark turning the right way.
Hold the sword with the blade pointing up in the air, and take a picture of the mark. Thank you.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th October 2019, 05:44 PM

Reference;
A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon
B. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram

The thread is most interesting since it illustrates the latten inlay on six pointed stars most accurately and draws in another style of star with eight points. Of the eight pointer I have absolutely no idea except that there is no distinction between a five and a six pointer thus perhaps they mean the same... but with eight?

On the Six Pointer; There are two main separate meanings ...One in Indian religious form and the other European sense. The one we all know about is The Seal of Solomon but this is misleading since it was used for centuries in Christian form before it was adopted into Jewish . It would seem to support the view that latten inlay being used first in European swords from an ancient European seal of Solomon / star of David design points to the subject blade being European not middle eastern. Note however that ancient Damascus blades had the star form on the blade..confusingly appearing on British military blades even today as a mark of quality or in memory of high quality blades with that insignia. Wilkinson Swords all have that same star on the blade at the throat.

From Reference B Quote"It is not to be wondered at, therefore, that for a long time both the five-pointed and the six-pointed stars were called by one name, the "Seal of Solomon," and that no distinction was made between them. This name is obviously related to the Jewish legend of Solomon's dominion over the spirits, and of his ring with the Ineffable Name engraved on it. These legends expanded and proliferated in a marked fashion during the Middle Ages, among Jews and Arabs alike, but the name, "Seal of Solomon," apparently originated with the Arabs."Unquote.

Please see wikepedia at Reference B on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons?

Below an actual ring; .. The Seal of Solomon.

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2019, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Stu you are right the stars are abut different but enough similar to me.
Jim the sword that I posted is not mine but the whole blade is absolutely Indian (the cut, the ricasso, the yelman) and if you search a bit you will find hundred of them and dozen with the little stars.
Indians copied European blades.
The man in the moon on Stu's blade is very different from the European blades that I have with the same "moon face".
I will be very happy if Stu's sword has an European blade.
But please brings me evidences.
Now Jim look at the post of a guy called McDougall

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...olingen+Blades

Post 28: this one seems to me a serious contender and then maybe a proof that your blade Stu is European... OR Caucasian!!! Caucasian sounds good to me...

Who is this guy called McDougall!!????

Kubur, seriously, thank you for linking that most interesting discussion, which really did cover a lot on the wide diffusion and copying of the crescent 'man in the moon' figure . There is no doubt this was widely copied, not just obviously Solingen, but in numbers of native shops in various cultures.
The crescent moon seems to have had a sort of universal application which worked nicely into the symbolisms of various religious, talismanic and occult followings.

What I have been referring to primarily the 'stars', again termed the 'cogwheel' colloquially in European parlance, and there again in European heraldry as the 'mullet' (fr. mollette) which loosely represents a spur.

I really do appreciate everyone's patience in discussing this dilemma in trying to determine which blades (with Stu's example) are indeed European as opposed to Indian made copies. There is no denying that Indian artisans were remarkably skilled, but we are looking at what symbols, designs or conventions were adopted by them in producing their own versions of blades.

I think the example Jens shows is interesting, and is of course more in regard to the proper position in viewing the blade markings, with point held upward.
It is obviously not meant in comparison to Kuburs blade (on a tulwar) wih lines of 'stars'.

As I had noted, these 'stars' (cogwheel, mullet) were not a feature I have seen on Indian made mark groupings. Again, as well pointed out and confirmed by Jens, the use of gold metal inlay (in these type marks) was not done by Indian makers. It was very much a European affectation, used mostly on the cross and orb or Passau wolf, but in this case obviously used more liberally in cosmological designs.

The blade fullering, linear mullets/cogwheels on Kubur's example (post #26) simply ring Italian, and my post illustrating 'storta' swords from Boccia & Coelho (1975) show these swords with similar blade features....as well as the profuse use of the 'stars'.

The roundel, as Kubur as pointed out several times (in Stu's example OP) seems possibly to have what remains of a crescent moon as also repeatedly mentioned as a possible enclosure in it. Again, it seems well established that the moon itself was widely copied in astral themes, but with the cogwheels, it seems to point to European application.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th October 2019, 06:20 PM

NOTE IT IS AN Indian FORM Please see wikepedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons?

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2019, 07:06 PM

Ibrahiim we crossed posts, and thank you so much for the interesting detail and insights into these 'stars' etc.
The point I have been making is that these 'cogwheels' (aka mullets) seen consistently in many European marking groups, while often appearing to represent stars, are actually more aligned with mill components (hence cogwheel) as used in blade making. The same representation is present in the familiar use of the 'mill rind' (aka twig) marking which has become at times entwined with the 'marca mosca' or fly marking. These are all basically Italian marks which have diffused into other European repertoire.

In the thread linked by Kubur, there is considerable discussion on the use of the crescent man in the moon, as well as notes toward the 'Star of Solomon' or six point star. Here is where we digress.
The number of points on the star are in my opinion, moot, as far as the use of these mullets, or cogwheels in various blade marking configurations.

The 'mill' theme seems to have been notably present in Italian marking systems as pointed out with mill rinds (twigs) and cogwheels , but in other European parlance may well have been seen resembling the 'mullet' in their heraldry.
The mullet represents a chivalry spur, and the number of rowels varied. Some may be seen as forms of stars, i.e. six point; five point (pentagram) or eight point.
Here I would note that the six point star, or Star of Solomon, is actually two transposed triangles, not a star with six points. The six point star much later became the Mogan David used in the Jewish Faith.

Here we see the widely disparate perceptions of certain symbols, which is well known with European symbols being copied in native contexts as they received trade blades imported from European sources.

The crescent moon easily melded into various cultures with the prevalence of lunar phases and observances keyed into their beliefs.

The cogwheel or mullet, as far as I can determine, even though perhaps seen as a star via the astral prism, did not have the same importance as the crescent in native interpretation.

In European (particularly Italian) parlance, the cogwheel just as the mill rind would have been cognate with the elements of the work of blade making, as might well have been recognized by guilds and marks used by makers in accord with record keeping.

To return to the discussion on Stu's tulwar, I personally feel that the blade is European, probably German (the latten inlay) and likely a cavalry blade of 18th c.
While Kubur posted a tulwar with a most impressive blade with linear use of the cogwheels (post #26) suggesting the blade is Indian using 'stars', it is my impression this is an Italian blade resembling those of storta swords.
The markings are configured in the same Italian convention I have seen on numerous sword blades of Italian origin (typically schiavona type) found in khanda (thus termed 'firangi').

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th October 2019, 08:30 PM

Yes fascinating inroads indeed... In fact I just read that the Moon and Star typically Othmanli decoration/insignis was not originally Muslim but in fact owes its origins further East in Hindu roots going much further back with the moon at the bottom of the diagram …

Here is a further link to Indian Crescent moon structures at http://www.sikhmuseum.com/nishan/mistaken/crescent.html …

My other point here was to look at the hilt which also tends to illustrate cogs...but I needed other examples of this decoration...and perhaps this is only artistic impressions of geometric floral style. See Below.

kahnjar1 · 11th October 2019, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Kubur's blade should be turned like this.

Khanjar1, to make it easier please show the round mark turning the right way.
Hold the sword with the blade pointing up in the air, and take a picture of the mark. Thank you.

Hi Jens,
Here are the pics rotated. Yes I see it now...."man in the moon" mark.
Stu

Jens Nordlunde · 12th October 2019, 03:26 PM

Hi Stu - glad it worked:-).

ariel · 12th October 2019, 05:33 PM

I am adding oil to the fire. Two pics with markings from both sides of the blade.

I am purposefully not showing the entire sword to have an opinion unbiased by any extraneous factors. .
When we reach a consensus on those markings I shall do it.

Kubur · 12th October 2019, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am adding oil to the fire. Two pics with markings from both sides of the blade.

I am purposefully not showing the entire sword to have an opinion unbiased by any extraneous factors. .
When we reach a consensus on those markings I shall do it.

Looks like markings on Yemeni sword...
Of course doesn't mean that the blade is Yemeni...
But deep crude engravings or stampings don't look European to me...

Jim McDougall · 12th October 2019, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Looks like markings on Yemeni sword...
Of course doesn't mean that the blade is Yemeni...
But deep crude engravings or stampings don't look European to me...

I'm with you Kubur, I have seen these kinds of groupings (the stars in V configuration and usually a 'comet' or moon as seen here, on blades in Arab context, often the 'Zanzibar' type nimchas.......used in Yemen.
It is hard to say where these markings were applied, but it does not seem they were European work, but seemingly copied. It has been suggested that some of the entrepots receiving blades for trade networks were duplicating various markings they had seen in the volumes of imports that came through.

These 'stars' are more like asterisks rather than the 'cogwheel' which is a disc with points surround. The cogwheel represents, as previously noted, a machinery element from the mills which produced blades.
The 'star' was an element of cosmological groupings.

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2019, 02:34 PM

When it comes to markings, I just found a funny quote in Sultans of the South. MET, 2008. Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries: Their Manufacture and the Influence of European Imports. On p. 224 Robert Elgood writes, 'English swordsmiths followed the custom of their Solingen contemporaries and struck whatever mark on the blade seemed likely to impress a potential buyer.'

So it was not only the Indian swordsmiths who copied the European maks, the Europeans copied each others marks as well.

kronckew · 8th December 2019, 04:56 PM

I also see the "Man in the Moon" in profile.

11th October 2019, 03:42 PM	#31
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Kubur's blade should be turned like this. Khanjar1, to make it easier please show the round mark turning the right way. Hold the sword with the blade pointing up in the air, and take a picture of the mark. Thank you. Attached Images

11th October 2019, 05:44 PM	#32
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Reference; A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon B. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram The thread is most interesting since it illustrates the latten inlay on six pointed stars most accurately and draws in another style of star with eight points. Of the eight pointer I have absolutely no idea except that there is no distinction between a five and a six pointer thus perhaps they mean the same... but with eight? On the Six Pointer; There are two main separate meanings ...One in Indian religious form and the other European sense. The one we all know about is The Seal of Solomon but this is misleading since it was used for centuries in Christian form before it was adopted into Jewish . It would seem to support the view that latten inlay being used first in European swords from an ancient European seal of Solomon / star of David design points to the subject blade being European not middle eastern. Note however that ancient Damascus blades had the star form on the blade..confusingly appearing on British military blades even today as a mark of quality or in memory of high quality blades with that insignia. Wilkinson Swords all have that same star on the blade at the throat. From Reference B Quote"It is not to be wondered at, therefore, that for a long time both the five-pointed and the six-pointed stars were called by one name, the "Seal of Solomon," and that no distinction was made between them. This name is obviously related to the Jewish legend of Solomon's dominion over the spirits, and of his ring with the Ineffable Name engraved on it. These legends expanded and proliferated in a marked fashion during the Middle Ages, among Jews and Arabs alike, but the name, "Seal of Solomon," apparently originated with the Arabs."Unquote. Please see wikepedia at Reference B on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons? Below an actual ring; .. The Seal of Solomon. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th October 2019 at 06:18 PM.

11th October 2019, 07:06 PM	#35
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Ibrahiim we crossed posts, and thank you so much for the interesting detail and insights into these 'stars' etc. The point I have been making is that these 'cogwheels' (aka mullets) seen consistently in many European marking groups, while often appearing to represent stars, are actually more aligned with mill components (hence cogwheel) as used in blade making. The same representation is present in the familiar use of the 'mill rind' (aka twig) marking which has become at times entwined with the 'marca mosca' or fly marking. These are all basically Italian marks which have diffused into other European repertoire. In the thread linked by Kubur, there is considerable discussion on the use of the crescent man in the moon, as well as notes toward the 'Star of Solomon' or six point star. Here is where we digress. The number of points on the star are in my opinion, moot, as far as the use of these mullets, or cogwheels in various blade marking configurations. The 'mill' theme seems to have been notably present in Italian marking systems as pointed out with mill rinds (twigs) and cogwheels , but in other European parlance may well have been seen resembling the 'mullet' in their heraldry. The mullet represents a chivalry spur, and the number of rowels varied. Some may be seen as forms of stars, i.e. six point; five point (pentagram) or eight point. Here I would note that the six point star, or Star of Solomon, is actually two transposed triangles, not a star with six points. The six point star much later became the Mogan David used in the Jewish Faith. Here we see the widely disparate perceptions of certain symbols, which is well known with European symbols being copied in native contexts as they received trade blades imported from European sources. The crescent moon easily melded into various cultures with the prevalence of lunar phases and observances keyed into their beliefs. The cogwheel or mullet, as far as I can determine, even though perhaps seen as a star via the astral prism, did not have the same importance as the crescent in native interpretation. In European (particularly Italian) parlance, the cogwheel just as the mill rind would have been cognate with the elements of the work of blade making, as might well have been recognized by guilds and marks used by makers in accord with record keeping. To return to the discussion on Stu's tulwar, I personally feel that the blade is European, probably German (the latten inlay) and likely a cavalry blade of 18th c. While Kubur posted a tulwar with a most impressive blade with linear use of the cogwheels (post #26) suggesting the blade is Indian using 'stars', it is my impression this is an Italian blade resembling those of storta swords. The markings are configured in the same Italian convention I have seen on numerous sword blades of Italian origin (typically schiavona type) found in khanda (thus termed 'firangi'). Attached Images

11th October 2019, 08:30 PM	#36
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Yes fascinating inroads indeed... In fact I just read that the Moon and Star typically Othmanli decoration/insignis was not originally Muslim but in fact owes its origins further East in Hindu roots going much further back with the moon at the bottom of the diagram … Here is a further link to Indian Crescent moon structures at http://www.sikhmuseum.com/nishan/mistaken/crescent.html … My other point here was to look at the hilt which also tends to illustrate cogs...but I needed other examples of this decoration...and perhaps this is only artistic impressions of geometric floral style. See Below. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th October 2019 at 09:00 PM.

12th October 2019, 05:33 PM	#39
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am adding oil to the fire. Two pics with markings from both sides of the blade. I am purposefully not showing the entire sword to have an opinion unbiased by any extraneous factors. . When we reach a consensus on those markings I shall do it. Attached Images

11th October 2019, 06:20 PM	#34
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	NOTE IT IS AN Indian FORM Please see wikepedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagram on the subject of this sign and the amazing array of different meanings attached in particular the Indian form of the star which is entirely different to the European reason...but may well be why it may have appeared on Indian weapons?

12th October 2019, 03:26 PM	#38
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Stu - glad it worked:-).

8th December 2019, 02:34 PM	#42
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	When it comes to markings, I just found a funny quote in Sultans of the South. MET, 2008. Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries: Their Manufacture and the Influence of European Imports. On p. 224 Robert Elgood writes, 'English swordsmiths followed the custom of their Solingen contemporaries and struck whatever mark on the blade seemed likely to impress a potential buyer.' So it was not only the Indian swordsmiths who copied the European maks, the Europeans copied each others marks as well.

8th December 2019, 04:56 PM	#43
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	I also see the "Man in the Moon" in profile.