On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[M ELEY]

Dmitry, I love your Brazilian (until proven otherwise!) cutlass. It is similar, but superior to my example. Not to divert the subject away from the Berber sabers, but as far as the Brazilian goes, I don't think there is much question that they aren't at least Spanish colonial if not specific to the Brazilian region.

Jim, I had also seen that saber with Pedro II's coat-of-arms. It was spot-on. The only thing was the timeline...later period than I would have suspected, but then again, many of the Spanish broadswords were used over many centuries. I tried to track it down again to no avail.

Dmitry's sword has that distinctive snake design on the finial we've discussed before on espada. I just saw a nice espada for sale on a website with the same pattern, but because it was an active sale, I didn't list it here (I am assuming a sale item and an active auction are considered the same??).

The Brazil sabers seem to have two distinct types of blades- straight (or nearly straight) and the classic curved type. I'm wondering what these swords were ultimately used for? Horseman's sabers? Cutlass in the many coastal ports? The pattern obviously was repeated, yet not a "model" used by any military or militia, apparently. Not trying to offend anyone, but I'm having trouble envisioning anyone riding around in the jungle or pampas on horseback with these strapped to their side. True, horseman's sabers could be rather large, but the guard seems more cutlass-like (what, me biased ).
The folded stirrup on these seems to indicate one worn on the side, like the smaller espada. So...was it like an infantry-type sword? I'm just struggling trying to imagine HOW the sword was put to use in this environment if not as the classic ship-board pattern.

Teodor, you started this great topic (thank you!) with a picture of the sabers in Barcelona. I'm curious what that museum listed all these swords (the Brazil sword (?), the Berber sabers (?) and espada) as in their collection? Do you know? Thanks.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Teodor, you started this great topic (thank you!) with a picture of the sabers in Barcelona. I'm curious what that museum listed all these swords (the Brazil sword (?), the Berber sabers (?) and espada) as in their collection? Do you know? Thanks.

The picture was made by a friend of mine, who visited the Military Museum in Montjuic a year ago - I just noticed it recently among all the rest of the pictures. Unfortunately, he has not made any pictures of labels.

I will be going to Barcelona in a month. Unfortunately, I read that the museum was closed permanently in May of this year. Part of the collection may have been transferred to Girona, and if true, I will try to visit there as well, as I am also very curious to see how these swords are identified.

If one of the Spanish members is reading this, please let me know where all the weapons from the Barcelona Military Museum are to be found now.

Best regards,
Teodor

[Marc]

Well, I have to check, but IIRC the collection was indeed supposedly set to be moved to the Figueres Castle (in the province of Girona, but not in Girona city itself, just to clarify), bit I think it's still far from being actually on display there.
I'll confirm before you leave, though.

Best,

Marc

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Marc

Well, I have to check, but IIRC the collection was indeed supposedly set to be moved to the Figueres Castle (in the province of Girona, but not in Girona city itself, just to clarify), bit I think it's still far from being actually on display there.
I'll confirm before you leave, though.

Best,

Marc

Thanks a lot Marc.

[Gonzalo G]

Continuing with my post in home and not knowing if somebody made a response to my comments meanwhile, I would like to add some more
commentaries. First, the fact that Morocco was not a colony until the
20th Century. Of course, there were wars and temporal occupation of
some ports by spanish and portuguese. In the 15th Century the portuguese occupied four ports and the spanish one, but were defeated and expelled latter. The war of 1859-60 against Spain ended with a treaty by which the sultan of Morocco gave to the spaniards the coastal area in the north of the country. It was a war to spoil Morocco of the ports, not to colonize it, in the same way that Gibraltar is not a colony, but a military post. The Rif berbers were not subjugated until the decade of 1930´s (with great loses to the spaniards).

So, of what colonial weapons are we talking about when refering to the
berbers? To beging with, what is a colonial weapon? The answer seems
obvious, but is not. Anytime I see this concept (colonial weapon), is
associated with european colonization. Which seems to be another
ethnocentric misunderstanding. Why never a yataghan from Greece or the Balkans is called 'colonial'? Colonialism is not a phenomenon exclusive of the capitalist countries, as feudal Portugal and Spain demonstrates. And so the historians writte of greek or carthaginean colonies in Europe. This is not off-topic, since the concept must be clarified, as it is taken in loan from the social sciences and sometimes used too liberally.

I understand as colonial weapons, those made by the colonial powers,
specifically in the colonies, by the colonial settlers or by the 'natives' undertheir direction. Or made exclusively for colonial uses. This does not include the weapons not made specifically in this way, as the colonial powere manofactured their weapons in the metropolis for purposes not exusively or specifically related with the colonies, but with their general military needs. Brazil (remember the 'brazilian' sword?), is independent since 1822, and Spain had a little presence there, if any, since that was an area under the influence of the Great Britain, and before, a portuguese colony which was not allowed to commerce with anybody but Portugal. America had not ports of call, for the spaniards, except Cuba, since around 1820-22,
including the Dominicana Republic. The blade on the berber sabre from Teodor was made after the independence of this country from Spain,
which give us a time span for this weapon. The machete of Guanabacoa is another history.

The weapons made by the 'natives' using 'trade blades', or blades taken in war from the colonial enemy, are not 'colonial', in the same way the saifs made with 'trade blades' from the persians are not 'colonial', nor the firangis from India are.

Would it be causal that the european (most probably) painter whose work was mentioned by Ariel represented the berber sabre ALSO confused with an american sword? Not likely. Too much distance and the relative ignorance in Europe about the late evolution of the american weapons, makes it very unprobable (such a coincidence!). I think the swords from the spanish museum and the painting in Versailles are enough proof, since the curators also can be right about how to classify a sword, mainly if they are from a country which colonized the berber area of the Rif (well, on the other side, this is not a garantee, in this case). Those are hard evidences dreserving to be taked on account.

I insist. As there were european influences, so there were african influences over all the countries which enslaved african people. When they were taken, they came to stay, with all the cultural and racial implications this carries. Republica Dominicana and Haiti are in the same little island, only divided by a political frontier. Their culture is strongly black. Papa Doc used the vodoo to dominate his people in Haiti just decades ago. Also this are the cases of Cuba and Brazil. Berbers surely had also decorative influences from the territories to their south. And they were also enslavers and slave traders. Mutual influences could perfectly be developed. We know a just a few from them, as far as I can see.
Regards

Gonzalo G

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by TVV

As for guard vs. no guard, I am not sure that the lack of a guard is necessarily unknown in Spanish long bladed weapons. For example, here is a Spanish colonial sword/machete from the sold section of Oriental Arms (I hope Artzi would not mind using his pictures as an example):

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3052

Note the similarities in hilt construction and the pointed tip.

I just saw your post, Teodor. Yes, you have a point. I don´t ignore this features in the machete of Guanabacoa. You can see more like this here:

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/34-Ultramar.pdf

Anyway, the history and details related with this weapon are not really known. Checking the manofacture of the blades, since I wrotte from memory my first post, shows the presence of Toledo blades on this machetes from the beginning. They could be used as blade of opportunity, or manofactured purposedly for this model, we don´t know. You have to take on account, also, that this machetes were not developed as weapons, but mainly as tools due to the dense vegetation on the island of Cuba. Maybe this is another factor to take on account in order to explain the absence of a guard. But I think this is not the case of the berber sabres, which clearly are a cavalry weapon used mainly fight.

Still, the absence of a guard is not a common feature in the spanish swords and this machete is precisely a proof of the validity of my arguments, though I can be mistaken. I believe this kind of weapon-tool was developed for the units called "Pardos" (because of their brown color, as they were blacks and half breed), but not exclusively, though the type of decoration which can be found in some blades seems very...un-spanish. As it can be understood, this machetes were originally designed and developed in Cuba, and apoved by the local authorities in the 1850´s decade, and latter adopted officially by the spanish army overseas in the 1890´s decade. I think the design originally has a strong african flavor, and at some point a guard was added in some variants. So, the construction of the handle and the absence of guard are not characteristically spanish.

Please check the spanish military weapons, and hardly you will find a machete (or any other sword) without guard and with this construction (if any). If you don´t understand spanish, there are plenty of illustrations in the articles from José Luis Calvó. You can save them and study the models of spanish military weapons which appear in this articles in PDF. At least, you will understand the name of the models and the dates.


On the other side, I am not expert in anything related with swords, just a student. But I studied history, and I like to relate swords, technology and history (including economic history or history of the economy) as different faces of the same phenomenon.

Please excuse my mistakes, but I am always is a hurry due lack of time online.
Regards

Gonzalo

[TVV]

Gonzalo,

All excellent points, as usual. I agree that the term "colonial" may have been used too freely here, something of which I am certainly guilty of.

I still do not see how a Balkan yataghan could be a colonial weapon though, because a colony implies a settlement or territory divided from the mother state by an obstacle, natural or other. The Ottoman Empire was contiguous, and its Balkan possessions under imemdiate control and access from the capital of Istanbul. I really do not see any similarities to the Spanish Empire here - maybe Tunis would have been a better analogy.

Another thing I need to point out is that in my opinion, the short length of these sabers, similar to that of a cutlass, would not make them great cavalry weapons. To me they seem much better suited for fighting on foot, or maybe even intended for a naval use.

I agree with the rest of your points. However, after re-reading your posts, I am still not sure what is your take on the origins of these sabres. I am sure you must have a hypothesis of your own, but to me it remains unclear.

Best regards and thank you for your participation,
Teodor

[Marc]

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Marc

Well, I confirmed it.
Right now, the collection is not on display anywhere. After being taken off its former location in Montjuïc Castle it was put in storage, and there remains. Institutions and particulars have been reclaiming the items that were in deposit, and a relocation of what remains of the collection in Figueres will have to wait for quite extensive (and so far without funds) reformations in the new location.
In short, the collection of Barcelona's Military Museum in Montjuïc is no more. And will hardly be again.

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?
Thank you very much for confirming that the Barcelona Miliatry Museum is closed, so that I can plan my vacation properly.
Best regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

Teodor, the term ´colonial´seems to be very laxus. The greek and cartaghinean colonies were only cities established as commercial settlements. They were nearer from the metropili than the balkans from Istambul, or at least there were similar distances. The idea of settlements established by a conqueror in other continent, is similar, since Africa and the Balkans are not in the same continent as the Ottoman metropoli. But in all case, I was not intending a precise comparison, it was just a reference.

Maybe I passed without looking the dimensions of those sabres. In some way the description from Ariel evoked to me, in my quick reading, a cavalry-like image, but it was my mistake. This is the reason why I feel important to know the exact measures of the weapons exposed in this forum, and also the weight, point of balance, thickness, geometry of the blade, etc.

In relation with the sabre: my feeling is that those sabre were made, among others, with european blades, and with the references form the spanish and french museums, I am inclined to think that the best hypothesis, in view of the available evidences, is that those sabres were more probably north african. I can add no more, since all the references I can find in internet point in this direction. I have not bibliography over the subject, but as soon I have more information I will writte to you.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Marc]

Originally Posted by TVV

Sad news indeed, Marc. Are there any arms and armor related museums in Barcelona that I should visit?

Uh.... no. Not really. Nothing really worth going out of your way just for the weapons themselves. To be sincere, Barcelona has a lot of unique and wonderful places to visit, including a lot of excellent museums. My reccomendation is that you enjoy your visit and wait to go elsewhere (Madrid, for example) to see remarkable arms and armour collections (specially european).

On the other hand, aside from the most usual touristic routes, if you happen to have some spare time, you might want to try the Ethnological Museum or even the the Maritime Museum , out of curiosity, if you like the subject (a 1:1 scale reproduction of a 16th c. galley, anyone? ).

[TVV]

Another example with interesting inscriptions in Spanish ended on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

On one side the inscription is "Para Los Valientes ____enos", as opposed to "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos" on one of mine. On the other is what looks like a regimental marking - can someone read and decipher it? If this sword can be ascribed to a military unit, then that would likely provide a conclusive answer on who used these interesting swords. In any case, the Berber attribution seems more and more unlikely.

I am attaching some pictures from the auction.

Regards,
Teodor

[carlos]

I have seen another sword like this, with the words Para Los valientes Cibaenos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cibao
and on the other II HYD VT IA PTO PLATA. This is the link, with this PC I can,t copy the pictures, sorry.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEDWX%3AIT
best regards
carlos

[TVV]

In an effort to bring yet another angle to the origin discussion of these swords, I am posting a comparison between the file work on the back of the tang on one of my "Berber" swords, and the hilt of an Albacete dagger, taken by Marcus back in 2006 while the Barcelona Military Museum still existed. The motif is similar.

Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting that Teodor! another intriguing element that compels the Spanish colonial aspects of these swords, though suggesting thier origins may indeed have been in Spains colonies in the Maghreb before diffusion abroad.
While in discussions of earlier years I had also considered the absence of these sabres in Charles Buttin's works. I am wondering if perhaps because they seem to have been situated in regions farther west from the French areas he was of course in, maybe he did not encounter these and they were not enough in presence by then to have been largely noticeable. I would presume that by the time of his residency in Morocco these would have already become diffused to the west.
The fact that these sabres seem to be almost invariably identified in groupings in Latin America and other Spanish ports of call does not necessarily mean that thier origins could not have indeed been in Moroccan regions, the Tirri references being the instance supporting this.

[TVV]

Jim,

How reliable is Tirri as a reference? I am sure he is correct about many attributions, but then, according to his book, we should still be looking for the laz bicagi in Egypt. We have to be careful not to propagate false information.

Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Teodor you know you and I are very much on the same page regarding the Tirri 'references', and who can forget the BSY drama! However as with most of these kinds of books, subsequent research and findings can often either further refute or sometimes support entries . In the case of these sabres I personally have not held to Tirri's classification, but as with many cases there is a wide scope of qualification and things can often be in gray areas.
Overall the larger balance of his attributions are reliable, and very much so considering those who consulted in preparation of the book, however it seems the major problem is the lack of cited references and sources.

I definitely agree, that we as students of arms history should not propogate false information, but continue research to properly balance information at hand. If these are indeed with the origins in Morocco then we need to properly acknowledge that with new findings, but frankly at this point the jury is still out.
Conversely, with the Laz Bicagi case, a classic example of revision, reminding us to recheck data used from many of the references we consult. I once read "...the thing I like most about history, is how its always changing!".


All the best,
JIm

[ariel]

Can't find my copy of Spring's book on african weapons.
But the scabbard of the "berber" one has the same protrusion at the end as the ethiopian ones. Yes, Berbers are not Ethiopians, but heck of a lot closer to them geographically than the Brazilians:-)

[Jim McDougall]

That was something that I noticed as well when I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in the early 1990s, and could not figure out why those examples shown in Spring as Ethiopian had the same type protrusions. I think that discussions some years ago also suggested that the 'thum' type extension on khanjhar scabbards and from Algerian regions some of the koummya scabbards was considered possible in influence.

Again, aside from Spring, other references on Ethiopian edged weapons do not include these type sabres, and as far as I know most of the varying shotel scabbards (excluding Spring) do not have these protrusions.

[ariel]

The pic I showed is not from Spring. BTW, I found my copy of Spring:-) and can photo the examples from it for general reference.
These protrusions may be infrequent on the Ethiopian scabbards, but they do exist. I know of no other examples of weapons that share such a feature. We cannot ignore it as a potential evidence of the "berber" sabres belonging to Africa rather than S. America

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks, I knew this example was not from Spring, and it is really an interesting anomaly as far as I can see. I had not seen swords with the S guard in this context. It would be great to have the examples from Spring shown here to illustrate what we're discussing for the readers.

I agree that these factors are pressing for a North African presence of these distinctly hilted and scabbarded sabres. Another sword discussion which may have some oblique bearing on this conundrum does recall another item in the Tirri reference which had disputed provenance, the so called 'Zanzibar sword'. This is the baselard (H shape hilt) form smallsword which was identified as a 'Zanzibar' sword in Burton (1884). I found that this exact and apparant misidentification was lifted directly from Demmin (1877) right down to the line drawing, and subsequently found that Buttin (1933) had classified these as Moroccan s'boula. In his footnotes he cites the Burton/Demmin 'error' .

What was most interesting was that Tirri had an example of one of these exact swords with Amharic inscription and I found an example of one of these among Ethiopian weapons in "Weapons of Africa" (Lindert, 1964) a small pamphlet.

These elements suggest the strong ties via trade route networking which existed transcontinentally, and pronounced presence of Moroccan weapons as far as Zanzibar, which would of course include Berber forms in cases. These networks included of course routes through Ethiopian points, and may explain the presence of s'boula in Zanzibar and Ethiopia...as well as conversely these scabbards with distinct vertical protrusion (resembling the Arab influence suggested) being in Ethiopian and Berber contexts.

I would point out as I have throught the years the interesting case of the Manding sabres which have cylindrical hilts compellingly similar to the Omani kattara, yet they occur in distant Saharan context far from Omani contact...except through possible trade presence from Zanzibar, which was of course an Omani Sultanate as well as powerful trade entrepot. Of further note is again the scabbards, which carry the flared tip characteristic of the kaskara, and revealing probable diffusion westward in these trade routes.

While these notes are concerning other sword forms, they seem pertinant to the study of these Berber sabres and thier likely origins and development, which seems to favor North African Berber regions at this point.
As I have once again brought Buttin into the discussion, it seems a bit contrary to suggest that these sabres cannot have been among Moroccan weapons as they do not appear in Buttin...while noting that the 'Zanzibar' swords are in fact Moroccan because they DO appear in his reference.

It is clear that more support is needed for those weapons' origin as well as continuing viable research on the 'Berber' sabres. As Teodor has well noted, many misperceptions have been perpetuated with the use of material from earlier references without further study and evidence. I think that is why we are here.

[ariel]

Here they are: Ethiopian Gurades from Spring's book.
Do they remind us of something? :-)

[ariel]

I would venture to say that scabbards ( at least in this case) are more important determinants: blades traveled, scabbards were locally made and reflected local traditions.
My vote for North Africa.

[TVV]

The protrusion is indeed quite similar. There are other swords with scabbard protrusions, like for example Taiwanese aboriginal knives, but those scabbards tend to be wood, not leather. The tips on Ethiopian gurades bear the closest resemblance to the tips on Berber cutlasses.

I am not sure we can settle attributions by a matter of voting . Personally, I do not even know how to vote, as I can see the following possibilities:

1. A North African sword from areas close to the Spanish colonial holdings: North Morocco or Spanish Sahara (or Spanish Guinea?). The Spanish mottos can be explained as a result of no alternative sources of blades. We know that colonial powers tried to limit access to weapons for the local population in controlled and neighboring areas, or it may simply be a matter of restricting trade to merchants and goods from the respective Metropole. If that hypothesis is true, it may explain why we see almost exclusively Spanish blades on these swords, and mostly French blades on Mandingo sabers, in areas not too far.

2. A Caribbean weapon, which combines features from the diverse demographic composition of the Spanish colonies in Central America. By the 19th century, the population in the Spanish part of Hispaniola was of mixed Spanish, African and Amerindian descent. This may explain why the inscriptions refer to this particular island, while the decoration, which varies from simple geometric patterns to complex floral designs, is so eclectic.

3. A private purchase, non-standard issue weapon of Spanish officers and/or soldiers or sailors, who saw service in various parts of the Empire.

I am sure others may come up with further possibilities. In the end, I am afraid we will need photographic evidence to resolve the mystery conclusively, assuming of course that the use of these cutlasses does not predate photography.

Regards,
Teodor

[M ELEY]

Excellent points, Teodor.

I, myself, wasn't trying to imply that the Berber sabers were of Brazilian or Spanish origin. It was just a question of who influenced whom. I agree that the blades don't define the piece, as all areas discussed had trade blades present. I have no doubt the scabbard on the Berbers come from that region, or at least from the African northern provinces stretching to Morocco.

The question for me remains with the hilt. We see Brazilian and Cuban swords with these distinct and fascinating shapes that are so similar to the ninchas and saifs. All the pieces discussed frequently have the same types of inlay concentric circles and wavy lines. The time periods when we start seeing Berber sabers, Brazilian cutlass and the Cuban examples with the odd hilts all seem to be post 1800. I'm just still trying to make a connection, but perhaps am seeing more than is really there? The Brazilian cutlass hilt resemble a throw-back to the old Houndslow swords of the 17th century and look nothing like the hilts on other espada ancha. The mystery continues...

[TVV]

I was fortunate enough to visit Madrid this week and just yesterday took the train to Toledo, where the Spanish National Military History Museum is now located. Among all the exhibits there is a single sword of the type discussed in this thread, identified as originating from the Dominican Republic from the mid 19th century.

This is just the latest in a series of evidence, all pointing to the Dominican Republic. Museums are known to make mistakes, but my impression from the Museo del Ejercito was that the items there were for the most part very accurately researched and identified. There were displays to the wars fought in Morocco both in Toledo and in the Museo Naval in Madrid, and neither contained these machetes, but contained the typical Maghrebi saifs and muskets instead, along with koumayas and flyssas.

Personally, I am now of the opinion that these short sabres or machetes are entirely Dominican in origin, and any occurence in a North African context may have been purely incidental.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!!
It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant.

Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Teodor, thank you!!!!
It is so great when these older threads are brought up with new data, and finally we can put this one to rest. I agree the Museo del Ejercito has as far as I have known always had well placed research, and it seems that the Caribbean attribution to these has also been consistant.

Sounds like a fantastic trip, and thank you again for sharing this.

All the best,
Jim

[archer]

I just noticed a mention on the third page of Faganarms,Inc. Spring 2014 catalog a Berber Back sword listed with the mention that the Kabyle Berbers fought for the French in Mexico in the 1850s. Perhaps, this is partially how and why they were connected. Steve

[Masich]

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich