Recently Acquired Espada Ancha for Comment

drac2k · 23rd October 2016, 07:58 PM

It seems that recently I've drifted a little into Colonial Spanish Swords.My most recent acquisition(sounds more impressive than purchase), is a bone handled sword, that at one time must have been very beautiful.It looks like it had 2 branches and the folding guard removed .I doubt it came with the crude bone handle and I believe this to be a later addition
Any information or comments as to the age, style, location, etc. would be a
appreciated

Jim McDougall · 23rd October 2016, 09:16 PM

As these are grouped, in the first photo, from top to bottom,
1. These are classified by Levine (1985) as Central American dirk, seeming to be mid to latter 19th c. though he does not specify period.
2.This does appear to be an espada ancha, which technically refers to the stirrup guard hangers with large heavy SE blades of latter 18th into 19th.
These were the utilitarian hangers worn by the 'Soldado's de Cuera' or leather jacket presidial troopers in the northern frontiers of New Spain (Mexico).
This one does appear to have two branches no longer present, and as such was one of the variant espada types with such branches as seen in #3.
These according to Adams (1985) are termed 'round tang espadas' or in other references 'gavilan' ( for the branches).
The cross hatch in the bone is a motif apparent in many of these, which also are known in the same regions of Mexico as the espada ancha

3. As described above, the branched espada, but what is most interesting is the sectioned grip with metal insert at center, just as seen on the grip of #1 which as noted is stated Central America. It is tempting to presume these grips are regionally connected between these two forms, however the lack of regulation and clear diffusion of forms would preclude being accurate with this. Still it is important to observe and note .

Often the character and features of many of these swords of New Spain from South and Central America through Mexico and into American southwest was well diffused as far west as the Philippines, the outer sector of the Spanish Main in that direction.

Fantastic examples!!! and while to many these seem crude, they have a rugged charm which reflects the fascinating history of these Spanish colonial regions. It is not unusual to see these altered or refurbished with somewhat incongruent components or sometimes removed as with the example noted.
In the remote outposts of these frontiers, most everything was recycled or repurposed as much as possible.

With the numbers on the blade of the 'dirk', this seems in line with what were possibly lot or batch numbers of blades from German mfg. as I have seen sometimes on similar examples.
The E.S. in the cartouche may be initials, but more likely for a unit as many of regiments etc were named rather than numbered, especially in the very common cases of para military units. It would take quite a bit of research and luck to define I think.

drac2k · 23rd October 2016, 10:12 PM

Jim, I was hoping you would comment on this post as I know you are very well informed on these swords as well as others ; our previous conversations may have been the impetus for my attraction to these weapons.

Jim McDougall · 24th October 2016, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Jim, I was hoping you would comment on this post as I know you are very well informed on these swords as well as others ; our previous conversations may have been the impetus for my attraction to these weapons.

David, you are definitely rekindling my fires with these great examples!!! auuughhh!! outstanding.
Thank you for sharing !!

M ELEY · 27th October 2016, 03:39 AM

I must also thank you, David, for posting these! I have always found these colonial Spanish weapons both fascinating and historically relevant. Many approach the bounds of 'folk art' in my opinion!

Jim, you indeed are an expert when it comes to these amazing pieces! Living in the South West and assisting museums out that way undoubtedly contributed to your endless knowledge on the subject!

The second piece intrigues me, as I have seen espada where another guard or hilt is superimposed over another to create this double effect. The first one I ever saw I assumed to be a makeshift one-ff piece, but since then, it was definitely a repeated form. Frederick's Swords catalog had one years ago with a dish guard followed by up/down facing quillons before the blade. Interestingly, he listed it as 'possible Spanish pirate??', which is why I remember it so keenly! Always great to see these types of weapons, where the bladesmith used what he had in outposts limited for supplies...

drac2k · 28th October 2016, 01:43 AM

Thanks for the kind words;Spanish Pirate Sword, I think I like that !

Belizechopper · 15th January 2017, 10:54 PM

The espada anchas are truly facinating and with very distinct hilt styles in many variations over time. Aging can be a problem as many blades and hilts are married old to new. Some styles were used for many years. The blades styles are better dating. Juan recently mentioned a mid 18th century Spanish Dragoon sword with the straighter forte and sweeping upturned foible that could be inspiration for mid 18th century blacksmith made espada ancha blade. Eric

colin henshaw · 30th January 2017, 06:24 PM

Fine pieces, thanks for posting. I do like these old colonial, slightly primitive weapons, they have lots of character !

Sajen · 30th January 2017, 09:34 PM

Most interesting thread! Eric, first welcome to the forum! Second, can we see please the complete swords?

Regards,
Detlef

Belizechopper · 31st January 2017, 02:44 AM

Sajen, I will on my return home post better photos. I am traveling and posted what I had. Jim the dating is a complete bear as the reuse of hilts, blades and parts sometimes span a century or more.the more I look at these latin blacksmith swords the more patterns I see in style and design Bill Adams notes the heavy thick short blades may have been designed to cut the hocks of horses for men on foot. Interesting thought process. The earliest espada anchas were much longer and straight bladed, then the short straight blades (possibly reused) then the flat blades with straight forte and sharp upturn in foible, possibly copied from mid 18th century Spanish Dragoon saber with the same blade design. The straight blades with slight turn up in foible seem to start around the beginning of the 19th century. Then seem to get very crude in 1810 to 1830 and straighter still untill taking on a machete look by 1880 or 1890. Then again because as Jim said the reuse of parts disregard everything I said as there can be any number of variations of my theories. While many were used by Soldados de Cuera as many more were used by land owners, los Invalidos and peasants. If others have better information or theories I would love to hear them. Eric

dana_w · 15th October 2018, 10:52 PM

Jim McDougall,

Is your reference to (Levine, 1985) intended to point to "Guide to Knife Values (Levine's Guide to Knives & Their Values) by Bernard Levine (1985-12-13)", or something else?

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2018, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dana_w

Jim McDougall,

Is your reference to (Levine, 1985) intended to point to "Guide to Knife Values (Levine's Guide to Knives & Their Values) by Bernard Levine (1985-12-13)", or something else?

Yes.....should have added the title.

15th January 2017, 10:54 PM	#7
Belizechopper Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 10	Bone grip espada ancha with forward quillions The espada anchas are truly facinating and with very distinct hilt styles in many variations over time. Aging can be a problem as many blades and hilts are married old to new. Some styles were used for many years. The blades styles are better dating. Juan recently mentioned a mid 18th century Spanish Dragoon sword with the straighter forte and sweeping upturned foible that could be inspiration for mid 18th century blacksmith made espada ancha blade. Eric Attached Images

23rd October 2016, 07:58 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Recently Acquired Espada Ancha for Comment It seems that recently I've drifted a little into Colonial Spanish Swords.My most recent acquisition(sounds more impressive than purchase), is a bone handled sword, that at one time must have been very beautiful.It looks like it had 2 branches and the folding guard removed .I doubt it came with the crude bone handle and I believe this to be a later addition Any information or comments as to the age, style, location, etc. would be a appreciated Attached Images

23rd October 2016, 09:16 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	As these are grouped, in the first photo, from top to bottom, 1. These are classified by Levine (1985) as Central American dirk, seeming to be mid to latter 19th c. though he does not specify period. 2.This does appear to be an espada ancha, which technically refers to the stirrup guard hangers with large heavy SE blades of latter 18th into 19th. These were the utilitarian hangers worn by the 'Soldado's de Cuera' or leather jacket presidial troopers in the northern frontiers of New Spain (Mexico). This one does appear to have two branches no longer present, and as such was one of the variant espada types with such branches as seen in #3. These according to Adams (1985) are termed 'round tang espadas' or in other references 'gavilan' ( for the branches). The cross hatch in the bone is a motif apparent in many of these, which also are known in the same regions of Mexico as the espada ancha 3. As described above, the branched espada, but what is most interesting is the sectioned grip with metal insert at center, just as seen on the grip of #1 which as noted is stated Central America. It is tempting to presume these grips are regionally connected between these two forms, however the lack of regulation and clear diffusion of forms would preclude being accurate with this. Still it is important to observe and note . Often the character and features of many of these swords of New Spain from South and Central America through Mexico and into American southwest was well diffused as far west as the Philippines, the outer sector of the Spanish Main in that direction. Fantastic examples!!! and while to many these seem crude, they have a rugged charm which reflects the fascinating history of these Spanish colonial regions. It is not unusual to see these altered or refurbished with somewhat incongruent components or sometimes removed as with the example noted. In the remote outposts of these frontiers, most everything was recycled or repurposed as much as possible. With the numbers on the blade of the 'dirk', this seems in line with what were possibly lot or batch numbers of blades from German mfg. as I have seen sometimes on similar examples. The E.S. in the cartouche may be initials, but more likely for a unit as many of regiments etc were named rather than numbered, especially in the very common cases of para military units. It would take quite a bit of research and luck to define I think.

23rd October 2016, 10:12 PM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Jim, I was hoping you would comment on this post as I know you are very well informed on these swords as well as others ; our previous conversations may have been the impetus for my attraction to these weapons.

27th October 2016, 03:39 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,096	I must also thank you, David, for posting these! I have always found these colonial Spanish weapons both fascinating and historically relevant. Many approach the bounds of 'folk art' in my opinion! Jim, you indeed are an expert when it comes to these amazing pieces! Living in the South West and assisting museums out that way undoubtedly contributed to your endless knowledge on the subject! The second piece intrigues me, as I have seen espada where another guard or hilt is superimposed over another to create this double effect. The first one I ever saw I assumed to be a makeshift one-ff piece, but since then, it was definitely a repeated form. Frederick's Swords catalog had one years ago with a dish guard followed by up/down facing quillons before the blade. Interestingly, he listed it as 'possible Spanish pirate??', which is why I remember it so keenly! Always great to see these types of weapons, where the bladesmith used what he had in outposts limited for supplies...

28th October 2016, 01:43 AM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks for the kind words;Spanish Pirate Sword, I think I like that !

30th January 2017, 06:24 PM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Fine pieces, thanks for posting. I do like these old colonial, slightly primitive weapons, they have lots of character !

30th January 2017, 09:34 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Most interesting thread! Eric, first welcome to the forum! Second, can we see please the complete swords? Regards, Detlef

31st January 2017, 02:44 AM	#10
Belizechopper Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 10	Sajen, I will on my return home post better photos. I am traveling and posted what I had. Jim the dating is a complete bear as the reuse of hilts, blades and parts sometimes span a century or more.the more I look at these latin blacksmith swords the more patterns I see in style and design Bill Adams notes the heavy thick short blades may have been designed to cut the hocks of horses for men on foot. Interesting thought process. The earliest espada anchas were much longer and straight bladed, then the short straight blades (possibly reused) then the flat blades with straight forte and sharp upturn in foible, possibly copied from mid 18th century Spanish Dragoon saber with the same blade design. The straight blades with slight turn up in foible seem to start around the beginning of the 19th century. Then seem to get very crude in 1810 to 1830 and straighter still untill taking on a machete look by 1880 or 1890. Then again because as Jim said the reuse of parts disregard everything I said as there can be any number of variations of my theories. While many were used by Soldados de Cuera as many more were used by land owners, los Invalidos and peasants. If others have better information or theories I would love to hear them. Eric

15th October 2018, 10:52 PM	#11
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Jim McDougall, Is your reference to (Levine, 1985) intended to point to "Guide to Knife Values (Levine's Guide to Knives & Their Values) by Bernard Levine (1985-12-13)", or something else?