Two handed swords

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iain

...You can look at http://takouba.org if you like, which is my website...

And why not here ?

http://takouba.org/the_takouba_form_...stribution.pdf

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Excellent, Iain,

I guess we are on the same page now - thank you! And I do like your site although this is not my expertise; this hopefully will explain for my mixing up the terminology.

Anyway, my post did not mean to criticize, just clarify.

Best,
Michael

No problem Michael, I only study a pretty small topic so I am a very limited collector and I don't get to post much in the European forum! I saw a little chance so I wanted to help out if I could. I really enjoy reading the expert posts from you and others on European arms.

Originally Posted by fernando

And why not here ?

http://takouba.org/the_takouba_form_...stribution.pdf

Hi Fernando,

You are very kind to also link to my PDF. Maybe it can also be useful. But I don't want to distract to much from the real topic of this thread!

[Matchlock]

That's exactly true for me as well - just that I am on the 'other side' of the forum!
m

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Iain

...Hi Fernando,
You are very kind to also link to my PDF. Maybe it can also be useful. But I don't want to distract to much from the real topic of this thread!

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour .

[Iain]

Originally Posted by fernando

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour .

Well I could have linked to my pride and joy... http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14757

Actually I think this blade with the three half moons could be some kind of later trade blade? Like the one I am attaching images of. These astral symbols with stars and moons seem to have been very popular in many areas outside of Europe.

The thing that seems odd to me, being a little used to looking at trade blades, is that the profile on this blade, flat, no fullers, not really any taper and rounded tip, is that it would be pretty unusual for a export blade for African or maybe middle Eastern swords. Actually I am struggling to think of what type of sword would have used it outside of Europe.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

No real distraction; not so distant from the thread topic. Besides,Takouba blades do have a nostalgic European flavour .

They definitely do, just like the stocks of Turkish matchlock and miquelet guns, as well as those of Indian matchlock guns (and the mechanisms of the latter) carry on the early 16th c. North European tradition!

m

[cornelistromp]

re; Katzbalger
Unfortunately it is not possible, merely on the basis of the pictures to determine the authenticity.
The blade of flat lenticular section without a ricasso came one more katbalgers.
A one-piece iron grip I have not seen before, but this does not mean it has never existed.
The simple chisseled spirally fluting at the s-guard looks looks unusual so do the flat terminals, but again this means nothing.


The damage to the edge at the point is in my point of view not the result of fighting but is added later! At the tip, there are several notches applied at the same angle and force, it looks simulated!
I agree with Michaels comments on the marks orb and passau wolf.
( maybe not African but it does not look authentic/European)

all this does not mean that the sword is not the real thing , but when in doubt I would always have it examined.

re: 2hand sword
it is clear it never had the fleur de lys inside the guard.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

Thanks for the posts. For information, here are the comments of Mr. Juan J. Perez (moderator at Sword Forum International forum) on the katzbalger blade markings:

'Nice sword indeed. From the distance it looks good to me, although in such pieces one should be very cautious regarding authenticity.

The markings are quite typical from the Renaissance and the Germanic area. Moons are easily found on German blades up to the 18th century, while orbs are a medieval theme often found in the next centuries.'


I have some clues that clearly show that these exact 'three crescent moon motifs' and three 'orb and cross' motifs are indeed German of the 16th century period. Have to find once more this information on the web and will post them in the forum

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello All,

The IDENTICAL shape of the 'three moon' motif is found in a German city coat-of-arms of the renaissance period. In this city coat-of-arms that contains three moons arranged in a triangle, the shape of the moons is IDENTICAL to that etched on the blade of the katzbalger. I have to review the 15,000 German city coat-of-arms to refind it one more time (Siebmacher, year 1605; link http://www.wappenbuch.com/) !
At the moment, I have reviewed only about a thousand of coat-of-arms !

Hope this helps,

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here is a katzbalger that was sold by Hermann Historica (found it on the web). It appears to be similar to the one I bought from Bolk antiques, including at the level of blade and hilt.

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

In reference to the 'Three moons' motif mark found on blade of 16th century Katzbalger : as mentioned previously, such an IDENTICAL 'three moons' motif is found on German coat-of-arms (see third quarter) of Sachsen-Lauenburg, indicating an actual german origin of such motif, rather than african or so (as suggested in some posts). I will search in other german cities coat-of-arms too.

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

The 'three orbs and crosses' motif (three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle) is described to be typical german mark of the mid-16th century. There is a previous post in the forum showing exactly the same pattern of three orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle.

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

Here are some information from specialized books, that I got on the web (Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie, published in 1885; Gyngell's Armourers marks, page 30).

- The shape of 'orb and cross' motif found on katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one shown on pic (plate 1: number 24, and plate 2: middle orb mark), indicating a 16th century period, coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'three orbs and crosses' motif -with orbs and crosses arranged in a triangle- is also reported to be typical German 16th century (not shown in this post: I have to refind it on the web ), also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade;

- The 'Passau running wolf' motif etched on both sides of katzbalger's blade is exactly the same as the one described to be mid-16th century, also coherent with what is expected for a 16th century katzbalger's blade. Interestingly, it has some additional details that were also reported amongst known variants of the 'Passau running wolf' (see plate 3, number 14).

Such blade marks are therefore totally coherent with a German 16th century blade...

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi,

Here is another 16th century katzbalger (found among forum posts) that does not show any fullers on blade. Interestingly, a renaissance poem is etched on the blade

jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Here is an additional pic of katzbalger.

[Matchlock]

I am sorry to say that the two Katzbalgers last posted are spitting images of 19th c. copies! No genuine Renaissance sword is known to have a poem on its blade! This was the characteristically overexaggerating, idealizing 19th c. Neo-Renaissance manner.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I am sorry to say that the two Katzbalgers last posted are spitting images of 19th c. copies! No genuine Renaissance sword is known to have a poem on its blade! This was the characteristically overexaggerating, idealizing 19th c. Neo-Renaissance manner.

Best,
Michael

@ Michael,

which two katzbalgers do you mean ?, the first katzbalger is posted by Lee in your katzbalger thread!!!!(also in post#37 of this thread)
I do believe Lee's katzbalger is a genuine piece! probably with a later added poem.

and the second one is the katzbalger of Jean-Marc under discussion


@ Jean-Marc
the type and shape of the katzbalger are in accordance with katzbalgers which are known.
The symbols from the 16th century are also well known.

nevertheless there are some features that I find difficult to place:
- The grip is made outof one single piece of iron, there is no horn ring used between the guard and pommelgrip, this differs from the known katzbalgers of this type.

- The three moons in the blade are struck in as a makers mark, a coat of arms would have been engraved in the blade not stamped.
Also, the size and position is rather unusual for a makers mark.

- The Passau wolf and orbs are engraved very lightly on the surface.
many of these marks are deeper and often also have an inlay in latten hammered in.

- The "business" damage to the edge is ​​too extreme.

I really hope like you that this turns out to be an original katzbalger, but my advice is to have this investigated by a specialist with the piece in hands.

hopes it helps

best,

[Matchlock]

O.k., you cannot prove the 'authenticiry' of a 19th c. item by comparing it with another 19th c. companion. Of course, they are similar and show the same characteristics - but they are both not genuine.

Guess I'd better quit on this topic. I know what I know and I stick to what I said.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi,
Thanks for the posts.
Indeed, the first katzbalger is from Lee. You are right on the different points and also when saying that one should have the sword in hands to analyze it with better feeling and accuracy in judgment. Last week, I have shown the beast to an old senior collector owning an incredible collection of antique swords and armors he started in the 1970's (of course very rich ! I got the landsknecht captain armor with him); After careful expertise de visu, he confirmed the katzbalger is fully renaissance period (not composite), similar to the advised opinion of Ton Bolk.

Jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Contrary to your opinion on this thread, I do think both katzbalgers are genuine, of renaissance period. No doubt about that, but please stay with us on this thread !

Thanks in advance,

Jm

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello all,

I discovered an interesting find (at least to me): when looking at the book entitled 'The Landsknechts' (Mens-at-arms series number 58, Douglas Miller and GA Embleton), I noticed that, facing the third quarter of coat-of-arms depicting the 'three moons' motif (which is found on katzbalger's blade), the fourth quarter of the same coat-of-arms shows the personal flag/standard of Georg Von Frundsberg (Lord of Midelheim), the father and supreme commander of Landsknechts !
Therefore, it appears clear that this particular 'three moons' motif should be somehow 'linked' to the Landsknechts...

jm

To Michael: for information, the etching ('Passau wolf' and 'three orbs and crosses' motifs) on katzbalger's blade is not light (the pics of poor quality do not actually render justice to etching).

[cornelistromp]

the third quarter of sachsen-lauenburg coat of arms are no moons but three water-lily leaves, standing for the County of Brehna! see picture count Friedrich.
the crossed swords indicate the Saxon office as Imperial Arch-Marshal meaning the Saxon privilege to elect a prince.
This weapon of "kurzschwerter"are widely spread among the German nobility.

Unfortunately the logic of your theory in the previous post escapes me completely.

Due to the average execution and workmanship, this katzbalger is not very convincing. it looks like there is not much support to find, to designate this katzbalger as original 16thC.

though I also incline strongly to a later 19thC reproduction, it can still be authentic.
if you can live with this that's fine, if you want more certainty, you can ask a specialist/authority in the known auction houses.
For example, Hermann Historica; Robert Weis or Nicholas McCullough
they have made an excellent cataloque describtion of the Karsten Klingbeil collection.

best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Thanks Cornelistromp for giving your opinion, that appears to have now evolved (and which is not mine).
In heraldry, the quarters of almost every coat-of-arms vary significantly over the years or decades. Accordingly, I found another shape for the same quarter, also resembling the 'three moons' motif but still different from the two presented here.

jm

[Matchlock]

A documentation of typical 19th-20th century Katzbalger copies similar to the one posted here in post 45 is available!

I do not wish to post them here so anybody interested please pm me and you will receive that documentation, including close-ups and current market prices!

Best,
m

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hello,

According to the last post of Cornelistromp, I have sent yesterday a series of detailed pics (up to 5.5 Mo resolution each !) of my katzbalger to famous Andrew Garcia for expertise (Armor4Sale: Authentication and Valuations of Antique Arms and Armor, including a service of museum restorers). He just replies that, from the pics, this katzbalger is actually all 16th century
This opinion is shared by advised persons or experts in antique swords, such as Juan J. Perez (moderator at Sword Forum International), David Gray, Raymond Tort and Ton Bolk (Bolk Antiques, a leading specialist dealer in Europe of Fine Antique Arms and Armor). Of note, some of them have had the katzbalger in hands.

jm

[Matchlock]

Hi JM,

Would you be interested in reading the documentation on Historismus Katzbalgers I announced?

If so, please pm me and leave your email.

Best,
Michael

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Michael,

Ok. Thanks. Please send it to my email address, as I cannot access your page due to a limited access account.

jm

[cornelistromp]

Hi Jean-Marc,

After seeing Michaels mail, which can not be published here in this thread because it is about a similar/same katzbalger as yours in a future auction, (it can be published after the Hermann Historica auction).
Iam unfortunately 100 percent sure that your katzbalger is a reproduction.
Iam very sorry for this information.

Best,

[Jean-Marc S.]

Hi Cornelistromp,

Are you referring to his posts such as the previous one mentioned below ?
If yes, this is not convincing at all.

'This 'Katzbalger' blade was shortened from a Tuareg sword (kaskara) and bears the characteristic crescent marks which were struck into the cold iron, in contrary to Northern European blades where the makers marks were always deeply stuck into the red-hot iron. The so-called 'wolf' and 'orb and cross' are just primitively and crudely scratched instead of cut with an engraver's gouge - nothing else! All original orb and cross marks are inlaid with yellow metal (line tausia).
In short, I am sorry to state that this is one of the most brutal forgeries I have ever seen ... my word on it! Return it as soon as possible.

Please study my thread on Katzbalgers and show me just one genuine sample with
- this kind of marks
- this kind of blade without the ricasso flutings!

Sorry but best,
Michael'

[Jean-Marc S.]

To Cornelistromp:

Or are you referring to Michael's previous posts I just found on this forum ?


Michael's post 1:
A very good Katzbalger, ca. 1500-10, retaining its original blackened hilt, the blade struck with a Gothic minuscule p mark, overall length 118 cm (!).
Provenance: Sotheby's London, June 20, 1929 (800 USD), bought by Wiliam Randolph Hearst and sold again Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, Nov 27, 1961, lot 33 (estimate 2,500 SFr; I do not know what it went for).


Michael's post 2:
Could you please post an example of the Swedish P, Manuel, and give a date for the blade(s)?


Celtan's post (Manuel):
Most certainly, my good sir. Your wish is my command: c. Late 19th C. 1748 -1800s
: )
Manuel


Michael's post 3:
Hi Jim and Manuel,

First of all: thank you, Manuel, for sharing these good images. As I am in no way an expert in 18th/19th century items I am unable to decide on whether this P mark is related to that on the early 16th century Katzbalger or not. All I can say is that I do not believe in a relationship between the two.

If you have close look at the respective shapes of the letter P you will see the decisive difference between an early 16th century P (actually it is a minuscule p) and the same letter, only 200 years old.
I have managed to find a few examples of 15th to 16th century p minuscules although some of them are of rather poor quality. Still I hope that you can see my point. They are taken from 15th century manuscripts; the one showing two p minuscules one above the other is the mark of the Munich gunsmith Peter Peck which is found to be struck on the barrel of a ca. 1565 wheel-lock harquebus or long pistol.
Now that brings me to the important point that you made, Jim. Altough this is the case with Peter Peck's mark and the famous PGM mark attached ("Pegnitzer goss mich", Pegnitzer founded me) on early 16th century copper alloy cast haquebut and cannon barrels, the presence of a certain letter on a late medieval or early Renaissance weapon or on any item of arts and crafts does not necessarily mean that it is the maker's mark and the inital of his name. Often enough, e.g., we find the Gothic minuscules m on 500 year old caskets ond parts of armor where it usually stands for Mary, Mother of Jesus, or ihs meaning Jesus hominum salvator, Jesus Savior of Mankind. Another good example is, I think, the Gothic minuscule n on pieces of armor and firearm barrels where it is a town mark denoting that those items were made at Nuremberg. This kept in mind, the letter p on the Katzbalger blade might well stand for the Saints Peter or Paul - or it might be the maker's initial, or a town mark. Who knows? This is open to interpretation and makes such discussions worth while.
With all my best wishes,
Michael


Therefore, if Michael describes an actual 19th century katzbalger replica as being a 16th century original katzbalger, one might suggest that he will find an original 16th century katzbalger as being a 19th century katzbalger replica !

Am I right ???

jm