On ethnography, hallucinogens, improvised knife, etc. - Page 2

fearn · 13th August 2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Thanks for those comments.

Can I just request for your comments please on my two back-of-the-envelope calculations?

Here's quick-and-dirty calculation no. 1 --

[a] there are currently about 13,000 drugs per US Food & Drug Admin., if I understood correctly this webpage;

[b] if the stat we picked up was correct in that 25% of Western drugs came from rainforest ingredients, then that would be 3,250 out of the 13,000;

[c] again if it's true that only 1% of rainforest flora has been tested, then shouldn't that mean that the 99% untested plants ought to give us thousands of more new drugs?

On the one hand, I myself like anybody else will find it ridiculous if someone will say that we expect to see 321,750 new drugs (i.e., 99 x 3,250) once the remaining 99% have been tested.

On the other hand, if we are to say that no significant new drugs are to be expected from the 99%, wouldn't that be swinging to the opposite extreme?

After all, the 1% tested did yield 3,000+ drugs.

Could it be that the most likely scenario will be somewhere in between? (though perhaps skewed towards the scenario you just described, in that the success rate will be much lower this time, on account of the similar traits of many species, etc.).

Just thinking out loud ...

I'll post next that second rough calcs

Hi Miguel,

As I noted above, it isn't a linear calculation, because diversity isn't evenly distributed among plant families, and because some groups of plants are far more likely to have potential drug properties than others.

For example, the three most common plant families worldwide are the asters, orchids, and grasses. Of these, we're alive as a civilization because of the grasses (they're our main food source), and we get some interesting herbals (echinacea, wormwood, etc) from the Asters. Orchids? Pretty flowers and vanilla, yet they're the most diverse family in the tropical forests. It isn't that people don't use orchids for various things (like fiber or pretty flowers) but they aren't a drug source.

Figs are another great example. I suspect there are some herbal uses that might even be useful for medicine. There are 800+ species of figs, and they're a keystone of life for tropical forests, because they fruit all year. Yet as far as I know, they all have much the same biochemistry, so no one is looking at figs as a source of medicine. That's another 800 species.

I can keep on going until I run out of space, but the point is that, while most plants have some basic herbal use, often those uses are things we already know about. Finding a genuinely new drug is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Those 1% that were already tested belonged to families that we knew contained drug compounds (like the nightshade family) or were used by indigenous people to do amazing things (like the curare plants or Davis' hallucinogens). Effectively, we've high-graded the forests for their easily accessible drug plants. While I'm sure that there's new undiscovered drugs out there, I don't think it's going to be easy to find, and the cost of finding those unknowns is what's keeping people from testing them.

Hope this helps. It's nothing like a linear calculation. It's more like gold-mining.

Best,

F

David · 13th August 2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

PS - Maybe somebody should ask Wade Davis what exactly did the Indians mean when they said that they hear those plants "singing" under the moonlight. It's also possible that something was lost in the translation.

I believe that even you and i would be able to hear the plants singing under the moonlight if we were to participate in a peyote ceremony.

I don't make this as a flippant remark. Castaneda was always asking Don Juan, "did that really happen? Is it true or just a hallucination?". Well this "separate reality" thing can get complicated.

VANDOO · 13th August 2009, 06:08 PM

IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE FOR PLANTS TO TALK TO YOU WHEN USING SOME OF THE VARIOUS PLANTS USED IN CEREMONIES BY SHAMEN AND OTHERS FOR MANY CENTURIES. MANY OTHER THINGS ARE POSSIBLE AS WELL WHILE MUCH THAT IS EXPERIENCED IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE OR FOR AN OUTSIDE OBSERVER TO CONFIRM THINGS ARE SEEN THAT CAN BE CONFIRMED.
OBSERVERS HAVE SEEN A PERSON HANDLE DANGEROUS OR WILD CREATURES OR FOR WILD CREATURES TO WILLINGLY COME TO A PERSON UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF A DRUG. WITH SOME DRUGS THE VISION BECOMES MUCH BETTER SO YOU CAN SEE THINGS YOU NORMALLY CAN NOT SUCH AS COUNT HOW MANY TIMES A FLY FLAPS ITS WINGS AS IT FLIES BY OR SEE THE HEAT RISING ABOVE A PERSONS HEAD IN SWIRLS AND SEE THE GNATS RIDING THE THERMALS ABOVE A MANS HEAD LIKE THE VULTURES RIDE THERMALS. DID YOU EVER WONDER WHY GNATS LIKE TO COLLECT AROUND AND ABOVE YOUR HEAD, THATS WHY.
MANY MORE THINGS CAN BE OBSERVED THAT CAN BE PROVEN BY CAREFUL STUDY BUT MANY OTHER HAPPENINGS CANNOT SUCH AS TALKING TO TREES OR PLANTS AND EVEN KNOWING THE PERSONALITIES OF DIFFERENT ONES. INDEED MANY THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE THAT CAN'T BE EXPLAINED AND THAT GO FAR BEYOND MAN'S NORMAL SENSES AND ABILITIES AND NOT ALL IS FICTION, ITS JUST NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE OR EXPLAIN.
I THINK WE HAVE MUCH MORE POWER AND MANY MORE SENSES THAT WE CANNOT USE HERE IN THIS LIFE AS THERE IS A GOVENOR SHUTTING THEM OFF AND PERHAPS THE SHAMEN FIND A WAY TO PARTIALLY UNLOCK THESE SENSES THRU THE USE OF THEIR DRUGS AND RITUALS TO HELP THEIR TRIBE.

FOR ALL MAN'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND KNOWLEGE IT WOULD BE JUST A SMALL SPECK AMONG ALL THAT GOD HAS CREATED. WE HAVE AN AWFUL LOT TO LEARN AND REALLY ARENT THAT SMART AFTER ALL.

Rick · 13th August 2009, 06:38 PM

Anyone here read 'At Play In The Fields of the Lord' ?

The movie ??
Meh .

We share the same planet but not the same world .

fearn · 13th August 2009, 07:44 PM

I'd also point out that plants do make sounds pretty routinely. Trees creak and groan under strain, and if you have a stethoscope, you can hear the sounds of fluids moving within the stems.

Yes, I'm aware that this is probably not what the "singing hallucinogenic plants" is about, but it's just as short-sighted to think that plants don't make sounds, move, communicate with each other, or sense their environments. Each of these has been proven by science, and none of these is news to anyone who pays close attention to plants in any culture.

Best,

F

David · 13th August 2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

We share the same planet but not the same world .

Ain't that the truth.

Wow, this conversation sure is getting esoteric....and way off forum topic. Hope those other mods don't shut us down.

Yes Fearn, creaking and groaning under stress and fluids running through plant systems is definitely not what we are talking about here, nor is it plants sensing their environments or even communicating with each other. What we are talking about is basically a "shamanistic" journeying experience where information about plant use is brought back from the journey and applied to "real" life situations....and proves to actually be correct and work! Certainly it is next to impossible to verify these experiences in any scientific way, but results are still results and i am not one to argue with them. Anyone who has had a peyote or "magic" mushroom experience can probably relate better to this, but maybe discussions of such personal experiences might be better left to private chats.

So i get what you are saying Fearn, really i do. The 99% of untested plants in the Amazon are not likely to yield anywhere near the number of medicinal drugs that we have already discovered in that 1 percentile. But what if they yield just a fraction, say 100 new drugs....or just 50....or only 25? What if they yield just one. What if that one is the cure for leukemia?

fearn · 13th August 2009, 09:23 PM

Hi David,

Check out Vincristine or vinblastine (link). We already have leukemia drugs from tropical plants.

Anyway, I know more about shamanism than I'm willing to talk about here, but that's only half my point. A bigger point is that we're assuming that, because they're hallucinogens, the people must have been hallucinating to hear the song. I don't know that Davis went out to check, but for all I know, you can hear the difference around the different cultivars of that vine. Maybe it has to do with the mosquitos that were buzzing around it, or something. Miguel's comment was right on: most shamans aren't stupid, and the ones I've met are pretty darn observant. Instead of wallowing in the mysticism of the comment, it's good to ask them whether they can teach you to hear that song, so that you can evaluate their evidence for yourself. It might be that all you have to do is stand under a vine and listen, simple as that.

As for the cost of finding a new drug.... That's a complex question. I'll approach it by telling some anecdotes.

1. A lot of the initial scientific research on Echinacea is incorrect, because the researchers were bad taxonomists and chose the wrong species for their sample. Moral: Correct identification is CRITICAL. This week, the New York times ran an article, one of many noting how taxonomy is a disappearing science. Think about the connection for a second.

2. Drug companies can only make money off of novel products. There's a huge number of drug plants out there, but as one herbalist noted, "how many cures for an upset stomach do you need to know, anyway?" A lot of plants have similar chemicals and work in similar ways. Good for the herbalists, but useless for the drug prospectors. If they can't patent it in some form, they're not interested.

2b. How much does it cost to screen plants? Depends on the method. Davis and his cohorts try to short-circuit the screening process by checking out known herbal medicines. Still, it costs around a billion $US to bring a drug to market in the US, and that includes finding something that might work, clearing all regulatory hurdles and safety tests, plus that wonderful 30% of the budget to marketing (When the time is right...Cialis). This raises the question of how much it is worth to go prospecting, considering how big the strike has to be to pay off for the financiers.

2c. Who owns the knowledge? A company in Texas patented bismati rice, and someone attempted to patent yoga, both in the US. The Indian government has been creating a multi-lingual database of ayurvedic healing preparations, so that anyone who tries to patent a traditional Indian drug in another country can have their patent rejected out-of-hand. Nevertheless, people will use the patent process, especially in the US, to take advantage of tradtional knowledge and even to lock out the people who gave them that knowledge as a gift. I think Davis is a strong advocate for traditional knowledge, but there still is the question about whether the healers and shamans should be talking to him at all, if someone else is going to exploit their knowledge without recompensing them.

2d. Similarly, one can look at the drug molecules as a form of knowledge, and talk about whether the drug prospectors are willing to pay to conserve the forest they're prospecting in. In many cases, they are not, because the economics are messy. You only have to find the drug until you can synthesize it in a lab. Once it's synthesized, the forest is irrelevant to the drug company. Whether this is fair and reasonable is an ethical question.

As I noted before, bioprospecting is a fad among drug companies with about a ten-year return interval. What happens is that they send out a bunch of drug prospectors, test whatever they find, and if they're lucky, bring something to market. If not, they get discouraged, and turn to some other field (like combinatorial chemistry or metagenomics, or whatever) to find new sources for potential drugs. When those fields don't pan out, they hear about some new, neat research about a class of novel biologicals, say the antibiotics found in the skins of frogs, and off they go to the jungle again.

And so it goes. Long answer to a short question, David, but bioprospecting really is like any other form of prospecting. It's risky, and as a result, it tends to be faddish. Is it worth it? You tell me. I'm too busy panning for gold, given the current inflated market

(oh wait, that was last year

).

Best,

F

Andrew · 13th August 2009, 09:54 PM

This thread has drifted way off topic!!!!111!!!11one!!

Let's get immediately back to fecal blades and penis-bone knives.

Rick · 13th August 2009, 10:17 PM

Pass the Ayahuasca .

fearn · 13th August 2009, 11:10 PM

Sure thing. Fine by me boss.

Actually, it is interesting, because we collector-types don't normally collect improvised or discardable knives. Exceptions out there? Anyone? Still, it's an interesting area for those interested in very basic ideas of design (i.e., the category, "sharp edges, what can I make them from, part XXX.")

Interestingly, there's a howto on how to make an ice knife. Don't know if it works, as it's summer here. Maybe someday I'll find out.

As for the drugs, I'm surprised that no ones gotten into the curare angle. That's as neat a story as any, and it does have collectible artifacts associated with it. Blowguns anyone?

Best,

F

David · 13th August 2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Anyway, I know more about shamanism than I'm willing to talk about here, but that's only half my point. A bigger point is that we're assuming that, because they're hallucinogens, the people must have been hallucinating to hear the song.

hmmm....well i, for one am not assuming that. Firstly i prefer to refer to these substances as entheogens. Hallucinations imply something that is not really there. I do not believe that is the case with the visions produced by these substances. Nor do i believe that these substances are necessary in order to hear the plants "sing", but they have been know to guide the people to the knowledge of this kind of listening.
And i guess you are right, we do already have a couple of leukemia drugs from tropically plants so i guess it makes no sense to keep looking for one that might actually cure the disease.

David · 13th August 2009, 11:16 PM

The ice knife idea is cool

, but if you already have the chisel, rock or stick needed to fashion it i think you might make a better, more permanent knife out of them.

Blow guns are also neat things, but i am afraid i do not have any. True though that we haven't had much discussion of them on these forums.

fearn · 13th August 2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....well i, for one am not assuming that. Firstly i prefer to refer to these substances as entheogens. Hallucinations imply something that is not really there. I do not believe that is the case with the visions produced by these substances. Nor do i believe that these substances are necessary in order to hear the plants "sing", but they have been know to guide the people to the knowledge of this kind of listening.
And i guess you are right, we do already have a couple of leukemia drugs from tropically plants so i guess it makes no sense to keep looking for one that might actually cure the disease.

Hi David,

I used to work at a hospital in the Bay Area, in the early 90s, when AIDS was really becoming epidemic. A doctor had gotten a birthday card that said, "Remember when childhood leukemia was lethal, and sex wasn't?" That was back in the 1970s. Childhood leukemia is now one of the most curable cancers, thanks in part to vincristine and similar plant drugs. I think of it as a success story, even though we don't have a 100% cure rate.

Now, if there was a drug out there to cure stupidity, I could use that!

As for what to call mind-altering plants, you're right. If I call them entheogens, someone gets mad, if I call them hallucinogens, someone gets mad, if I call them medicines, someone gets mad, if I call them drugs, someone gets mad, and if I call them poisons, someone gets mad. This is not to insult you in any way, but to point out that such plants are a touchy subject for our society, and I don't think there's a neutral way to talk about them. At least the term hallucinogens has been around long enough for you to know what I'm talking about, more or less. In my mind, that shared communication is reason enough to use the term.

Best,

F

David · 13th August 2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Now, if there was a drug out there to cure stupidity, I could use that!

Ain't that the truth.

And please don't misunderstand. I am in no way angered by your use of the term hallucinogen. Just explaining my point of view. And i do understand that entheogen is not a word that the general masses would recognize.

migueldiaz · 14th August 2009, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

... Hope this helps. It's nothing like a linear calculation. It's more like gold-mining.

Fearn, it wasn't helpful. It was super

Thanks for the elaboration.

And being a mining engineer who in my younger days had been blasting gold veins deep within the bowels of our mountains, I know exactly what you mean.

But hopefully not hoping against hope, I still look forward to the day when more drugs will be discovered, be they coming from plants or insects of the rain forests or from elsewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I believe that even you and i would be able to hear the plants singing under the moonlight if we were to participate in a peyote ceremony.

Then what are we waiting for?

Earlier all I know was that the day destroys the night, and night divides the day. Now I feel like breaking through to the other side

But as mentioned, enough talking about shamans and chemically-assisted meditations!

On a more serious note, I'm sure we all agree with Vandoo when he said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

FOR ALL MAN'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND KNOWLEGE IT WOULD BE JUST A SMALL SPECK AMONG ALL THAT GOD HAS CREATED. WE HAVE AN AWFUL LOT TO LEARN AND REALLY ARENT THAT SMART AFTER ALL.

Referring to Davis again in the video, it's of course true that our present techie world is but just 300 years old. With all the progress it has made, I hope people will also not forget to tap into the wisdom of the ancients. Their knowledge gathered over a course of thousands of years, is to me a more valuable gold mine ... which reminds me of one of the greatest tragedies ever, the burning of the ancient library of Alexandria *sigh*

We would have found a lot of info there for sure regarding metallurgy, ancient weapons, if we are to go back to the subject as we should ...

migueldiaz · 14th August 2009, 01:21 PM

Links for those wishing to know more about Wade Davis:

The one we all saw earlier -- Video: Endangered cultures (2003)

The story continues -- Video: Worldwide beliefs and rituals (2008)

Interview with Anthropologist Wade Davis

Links pertaining to Wade Davis

migueldiaz · 14th August 2009, 01:33 PM

I often wonder how a particular culture can be preserved in this day and age ...

For instance, watch this short video of a modern samurai who displays amazing feats with his katana.

Is he cheapening the proud heritage of the samurai by such seeming crass commercialism? Or is he in fact ensuring in his own little way that the ways of the samurai are not forgetten?

fearn · 15th August 2009, 04:02 PM

Interesting synchronicity.

This week in Science News, one of the feature stories is "Venom hunters: scientists probe toxins, revealing the healing powers of biochemical weapons."

So that's where the bioprospecting action is right now, the rapidly growing field of "venomics" (and I'm not making the name up), a combination of the studies of venom effects and the genes and genomics behind it. Interesting stuff, if you're into bioscience.

If you're not into it, just think of it as a way of turning pit viper venom into heart medications, or just a 21st century way of turning swords into plowshares.

Best,

Frank

migueldiaz · 16th August 2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

So that's where the bioprospecting action is right now, the rapidly growing field of "venomics" (and I'm not making the name up), a combination of the studies of venom effects and the genes and genomics behind it. Interesting stuff, if you're into bioscience.

Thanks, Frank!

Filipinos are actually quite familiar with this line of research. And one reason for that is that there's a local research agency that keeps a lot of live poisonous snakes, as they study precisely how to make anti-venom vaccine, among other stuff.

On using nature as inspiration for industrial design, everybody might want to check out this interesting video: Janine Benyus shares nature's designs.

KuKulzA28 · 17th August 2009, 01:18 AM

very cool, thanks for posting this up!

fearn · 30th August 2009, 05:16 AM

Bumping this one up, because in the US, National Geographic channel is running an hour-long program on Wade Davis working with the aborigines in Arnhem Land. No hallucinogens, but they do show spear-making and spear use.

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2009, 09:39 PM

This thread, which began with a sort of whimsical, yet interesting topic, has evolved into somewhat the pinnacle of off topic digression

...but I confess to having followed it with ever increasing fascination.
I am constantly amazed at the incredible core of knowledge on such a vast array of fields here, many of course not directly related to weapons.

One thing that I have found through many years of studying arms, often particularly with ethnographic forms, is that finding true understanding of them very often extends into subjects which would not seem related.

One of my favorite areas in examining arms has always been markings and symbolism, and understanding these often leads down incredibly esoteric and even occult paths. This is especially the case in American Indian culture as well as Spanish colonial situations, where in many cases these have melded together.

I could not resist following the Castaneda topic, which led me to the American Indian religions that follow the use of peyote and some of the other hallucinogenics, and its development from prehistoric times in America's southwest and northern Mexico. This leads to Meso American cultures, including the Aztecs and Olmecs, and the influences that evolved into the American Indian and Mexican cultures as well as Spanish, which in many cases included....weaponry.

Bruno Thomas and Ortwin Gamber in thier 'Harnitschstudian' (Studies in Armour) from 1937-1955, convincingly explained that "...rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period".

The study of art of course includes religion and all material culture, including that of folk religion, which as discusses, may often include botanicals that in turn include hallucinogens.

Just my thoughts, and thanks for the intriguing discussion....really enjoyed the adventure and added some great dimension to my present studies in Spanish colonial and American southwest study.

Best regards,
Jim

aiontay · 30th August 2009, 10:04 PM

The last practicing Kiowa horn doctor (a form of blood letting) uses buffalo horns handed down through her family and for cutting instruments, slivers of glass from broken brown (they have to be brown) booze bottles instead of splinters of buffalo bones like they used to. I use broken glass to scrape down bow staves, and brown glass is harder and sharper based on my admittedly subjective experience.

What about the use of gar's teeth for scratching at the SE ceremonial grounds? Would that count as an improvised "knife"?

As for hearing plants or animals sing, uh, the bad news is for the majority of folks on this board, (myself included) is that the don't speak English. Strangely enough, even sheep can speak Kiowa, but they don't speak English-I kid you not.

Montino Bourbon · 31st August 2009, 01:28 AM

Weapons are often loaded with shamanic power, and even so-called straightforward religious energy. The aspiring knight stayed up all night praying over his weapons, and there are lots of instances of various kinds of power in weapons. Keris is just one example.

Shaka Zulu totally changed South African combat methods from basically ritualistic spear throwing from a distance to a very methodical and effective military science. The long throwing spear was discarded for the short stabbing assegai, and the first of these, which he commissioned (Supposedly after a vision) was tempered with various animal entrails by his ally, the medicine woman Isangoma.

Castaneda's teacher talked about leaving weapons where spirits could touch them and empower them.

The ordinary and extraordinary realities exist at the same time and in the same place. And weapons are full of that kind of energy. In fact, I would say that weapons are one of the primary sources and repositories of shamanic energy.

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2009, 02:01 AM

Very nicely done guys!!! Talk about bringin it around.......beautiful.

Aiontay, its always great to learn more on the true American Indian perspective, and Montino, well placed notes on the shamanic connections to weapons.

All the very best,
Jim

migueldiaz · 31st August 2009, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

One thing that I have found through many years of studying arms, often particularly with ethnographic forms, is that finding true understanding of them very often extends into subjects which would not seem related.

Thanks Jim, and all of us couldn't agree more of course

When I started the serious study of Phil. ethnic weapons, I thought I would just be dealing with blades. Now I see myself (reluctantly) studying the weaving patterns for instance of the many Phil. ethnic groups.

It's becoming one heck of a journey, but I never regretted it and I'm definitely enjoying the ride.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

... As for hearing plants or animals sing, uh, the bad news is for the majority of folks on this board, (myself included) is that the don't speak English. Strangely enough, even sheep can speak Kiowa, but they don't speak English-I kid you not.

Thanks for the info aiontay on the improvised knife and blood-letting. That's quite interesting!

It's also interesting to think that our peoples may be related, if certain theories of anthropologists are to be believed.

By that I meant the hypothesis that from Asia, a group of people crossed the land bridge during the Ice Age into Alaska. Or perhaps your people would have a totally different belief, in which case it will also be interesting to know about it. Thanks in advance!

By the way, can you kindly please elaborate please on the last sentence of your post?

On another matter, on the attempt to blend the supernatural with the physical, I'd like to repeat this account I first quoted here, describing an Igorot "amazon priestess" in action in the battlefield:

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

aiontay · 31st August 2009, 04:07 AM

My Kiowa ancestors came out from underground through a hollow log as ants. A pregnant woman got caught and that is why there aren't too many of us. On my Chickasaw side, we came from the west and ended up in the SE USA, before the Andrew Jackson repaid our help in fighting the Brits with him at the Battle of New Orleans by removing us to Oklahoma. For a rather interesting story regarding the Chickasaw migration legend, which was a common one in the SE, read Du Pratz's story of a Yazoo Indian who basically tries to find out if the story is true. Du Pratz was a French settler in Louisiana in the early 18th century, and his book is available online.

Which leads us to an Asian connection. Over here we say it was actually the other way around; you guys came from here (just kidding), and Du Pratz story indicates there might be a connection. My Kachin friends assert that their migrations legends lead them to believe that American Indians are their brothers. Interestingly enough, the linguist Sapir posited a link between the Tibeto-Burman languages and the Dine languages (Apache, Navajo, and tribes in Alaska and Canada). As for a link to the Philippines, the only link I can think of is that I've studied Pekiti Tirsia for over 20 years. Sorry, that's the best I can do. Oh, I like chocolate meat, which is a very Kiowa style dish.

As for my last sentence, their is a Kiowa Christian hymn "Son of God, the Spirit of Joy He Is" or that's how it is translated into English. It is my favorite hymn. A number of years ago a Kiowa man's wife died. One day not long after her death he was walking along a country road and passed a herd of sheep, animals not native to the Americas. As he passed by the herd, he realized they were singing a hymn. That is where that song comes from, sheep. As my Yuchi friend said when I told him that story, "See their own animals don't speak English!"

KuKulzA28 · 31st August 2009, 04:15 AM

aiontay, that is fascinating. My family has lost touch with almost all of their traditional Chinese/Taiwanese beliefs and world-views. Maybe that's a good thing... maybe it isn't at all. The last 300 years of sino-history has been a lot of cultural decay...

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Thanks Jim, and all of us couldn't agree more of course

When I started the serious study of Phil. ethnic weapons, I thought I would just be dealing with blades. Now I see myself (reluctantly) studying the weaving patterns for instance of the many Phil. ethnic groups.

I too have found that happening. My quest to learn more about the Southern Chinese way of fighting, as well as Taiwanese aborigines has led me to brush up on my Mandarin and also try to relearn Min-nan/Taiwanese! I've found myself looking at Chinese clothing styles from Fujian, their boats, etc. I have also been listening to Taiwanese aboriginal songs and folktales, as well as their weaving and tribal structures... because a weapon is an artifact of survival in a society, and thus will be imbued and crafted with the hues and beliefs of that culture. Unfortunately, few people I know share the same enthusiasm for Taiwanese history and weaponry, but hey, never hurts to be different.

But the same goes for European weapons too. If an inscription has a reference to God but you don't know their religion well, you wouldn't get far. If a cavalry saber has a number and a mark on it but you don't know the system of master craftsmen and apprentice, you don't know the mass production of things, you don't know the exportation of British and German blades to Africa and India, etc... you'd be lost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

On another matter, on the attempt to blend the supernatural with the physical, I'd like to repeat this account I first quoted here, describing an Igorot "amazon priestess" in action in the battlefield:

"On the 25th [June 1747], Don Cuarto began the attack, but was soon put out of action himself by two rocks which struck him in the head. Apparently directing the defense forces was a sort of amazon priestess in their midst, naked to the waist, who kept inciting the Ipituys to fever pitch with her shouts and taunting the enemy with her invective and challenging them to shoot her, and although she was a frequent target, no ball found its mark -- a circumstance analyzed in the friar report of the battle as a sure sign of direct covenant with the Devil. The Igorots fought with such fury and war cries they literally foamed at the mouth, causing their enemies to suspect they had chewed some narcotic root to provide a suicidal intoxication."

The account was taken from WH Scott's The Discovery of the Igorots: Spanish Contacts with the Pagans of Northern Luzon (1974).

If she was hot I'd fight for her too

But on a more serious note... how real is this?
The Spanish tend to make their best enemies seem like demonic fanatics... rather than well-trained combatants fighting invaders... this probably also has to do with the Spanish world-view (leading back to what you were saying).

The Mayans idolaters, the Moro Mohemmadans, the Igorot pagans...

fearn · 31st August 2009, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

My Kiowa ancestors came out from underground through a hollow log as ants. A pregnant woman got caught and that is why there aren't too many of us. On my Chickasaw side, we came from the west and ended up in the SE USA, before the Andrew Jackson repaid our help in fighting the Brits with him at the Battle of New Orleans by removing us to Oklahoma. For a rather interesting story regarding the Chickasaw migration legend, which was a common one in the SE, read Du Pratz's story of a Yazoo Indian who basically tries to find out if the story is true. Du Pratz was a French settler in Louisiana in the early 18th century, and his book is available online.

Which leads us to an Asian connection. Over here we say it was actually the other way around; you guys came from here (just kidding), and Du Pratz story indicates there might be a connection. My Kachin friends assert that their migrations legends lead them to believe that American Indians are their brothers. Interestingly enough, the linguist Sapir posited a link between the Tibeto-Burman languages and the Dine languages (Apache, Navajo, and tribes in Alaska and Canada). As for a link to the Philippines, the only link I can think of is that I've studied Pekiti Tirsia for over 20 years. Sorry, that's the best I can do. Oh, I like chocolate meat, which is a very Kiowa style dish.

As for my last sentence, their is a Kiowa Christian hymn "Son of God, the Spirit of Joy He Is" or that's how it is translated into English. It is my favorite hymn. A number of years ago a Kiowa man's wife died. One day not long after her death he was walking along a country road and passed a herd of sheep, animals not native to the Americas. As he passed by the herd, he realized they were singing a hymn. That is where that song comes from, sheep. As my Yuchi friend said when I told him that story, "See their own animals don't speak English!"

Hi Aiontay,

You don't think that sheep would speak to Judean shepherds as well?

Seriously, though, I wonder if the sheep were humming, rather than speaking. People get their melodies from all over the place, and for all I know (and feel free to correct me), the person who wrote that Kiowa hymn was a shepherd who picked up his inspiration from the field.

Mozart did the same thing. He had a pet starling of whom he was quite fond. Starlings are mimics that can learn words, but Mozart put starling-like musical phrasings into at least one of his pieces.

Best,

F

aiontay · 31st August 2009, 12:42 PM

Hebrew or Arabic was the original language, of course, and plenty of ethnographic blades were used to prove that point. At least it was Semetic, and of course the animals understand it otherwise they would have gotten in the ark.

Fearn it was the words, not the tune. The hymn is 20th Century and there are still people alive who know the "composer" ( now deceased). He wasn't a shepard. The interesting thing to me is there are lots of songs attributed to animals in all the tribes, but they all pre-date Christianity as far as I know. Now there are plenty of Indian hymns that came via dreams or direct revelation, sort of like lots of medicines.

KukulzA28, Taiwan is a great place. I lived there for a year. Lots of interesting history.

14th August 2009, 01:33 PM	#47
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	I often wonder how a particular culture can be preserved in this day and age ... For instance, watch this short video of a modern samurai who displays amazing feats with his katana. Is he cheapening the proud heritage of the samurai by such seeming crass commercialism? Or is he in fact ensuring in his own little way that the ways of the samurai are not forgetten? Attached Images

30th August 2009, 05:16 AM	#51
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Bumping this one up, because in the US, National Geographic channel is running an hour-long program on Wade Davis working with the aborigines in Arnhem Land. No hallucinogens, but they do show spear-making and spear use. Last edited by fearn; 31st August 2009 at 01:46 AM.

31st August 2009, 01:28 AM	#54
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	a very interesting thread... Weapons are often loaded with shamanic power, and even so-called straightforward religious energy. The aspiring knight stayed up all night praying over his weapons, and there are lots of instances of various kinds of power in weapons. Keris is just one example. Shaka Zulu totally changed South African combat methods from basically ritualistic spear throwing from a distance to a very methodical and effective military science. The long throwing spear was discarded for the short stabbing assegai, and the first of these, which he commissioned (Supposedly after a vision) was tempered with various animal entrails by his ally, the medicine woman Isangoma. Castaneda's teacher talked about leaving weapons where spirits could touch them and empower them. The ordinary and extraordinary realities exist at the same time and in the same place. And weapons are full of that kind of energy. In fact, I would say that weapons are one of the primary sources and repositories of shamanic energy.

13th August 2009, 06:08 PM	#33
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE FOR PLANTS TO TALK TO YOU WHEN USING SOME OF THE VARIOUS PLANTS USED IN CEREMONIES BY SHAMEN AND OTHERS FOR MANY CENTURIES. MANY OTHER THINGS ARE POSSIBLE AS WELL WHILE MUCH THAT IS EXPERIENCED IS NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE OR FOR AN OUTSIDE OBSERVER TO CONFIRM THINGS ARE SEEN THAT CAN BE CONFIRMED. OBSERVERS HAVE SEEN A PERSON HANDLE DANGEROUS OR WILD CREATURES OR FOR WILD CREATURES TO WILLINGLY COME TO A PERSON UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF A DRUG. WITH SOME DRUGS THE VISION BECOMES MUCH BETTER SO YOU CAN SEE THINGS YOU NORMALLY CAN NOT SUCH AS COUNT HOW MANY TIMES A FLY FLAPS ITS WINGS AS IT FLIES BY OR SEE THE HEAT RISING ABOVE A PERSONS HEAD IN SWIRLS AND SEE THE GNATS RIDING THE THERMALS ABOVE A MANS HEAD LIKE THE VULTURES RIDE THERMALS. DID YOU EVER WONDER WHY GNATS LIKE TO COLLECT AROUND AND ABOVE YOUR HEAD, THATS WHY. MANY MORE THINGS CAN BE OBSERVED THAT CAN BE PROVEN BY CAREFUL STUDY BUT MANY OTHER HAPPENINGS CANNOT SUCH AS TALKING TO TREES OR PLANTS AND EVEN KNOWING THE PERSONALITIES OF DIFFERENT ONES. INDEED MANY THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE THAT CAN'T BE EXPLAINED AND THAT GO FAR BEYOND MAN'S NORMAL SENSES AND ABILITIES AND NOT ALL IS FICTION, ITS JUST NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE OR EXPLAIN. I THINK WE HAVE MUCH MORE POWER AND MANY MORE SENSES THAT WE CANNOT USE HERE IN THIS LIFE AS THERE IS A GOVENOR SHUTTING THEM OFF AND PERHAPS THE SHAMEN FIND A WAY TO PARTIALLY UNLOCK THESE SENSES THRU THE USE OF THEIR DRUGS AND RITUALS TO HELP THEIR TRIBE. FOR ALL MAN'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND KNOWLEGE IT WOULD BE JUST A SMALL SPECK AMONG ALL THAT GOD HAS CREATED. WE HAVE AN AWFUL LOT TO LEARN AND REALLY ARENT THAT SMART AFTER ALL.

13th August 2009, 06:38 PM	#34
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Anyone here read 'At Play In The Fields of the Lord' ? The movie ?? Meh . We share the same planet but not the same world .

13th August 2009, 07:44 PM	#35
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'd also point out that plants do make sounds pretty routinely. Trees creak and groan under strain, and if you have a stethoscope, you can hear the sounds of fluids moving within the stems. Yes, I'm aware that this is probably not what the "singing hallucinogenic plants" is about, but it's just as short-sighted to think that plants don't make sounds, move, communicate with each other, or sense their environments. Each of these has been proven by science, and none of these is news to anyone who pays close attention to plants in any culture. Best, F

13th August 2009, 09:23 PM	#37
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi David, Check out Vincristine or vinblastine (link). We already have leukemia drugs from tropical plants. Anyway, I know more about shamanism than I'm willing to talk about here, but that's only half my point. A bigger point is that we're assuming that, because they're hallucinogens, the people must have been hallucinating to hear the song. I don't know that Davis went out to check, but for all I know, you can hear the difference around the different cultivars of that vine. Maybe it has to do with the mosquitos that were buzzing around it, or something. Miguel's comment was right on: most shamans aren't stupid, and the ones I've met are pretty darn observant. Instead of wallowing in the mysticism of the comment, it's good to ask them whether they can teach you to hear that song, so that you can evaluate their evidence for yourself. It might be that all you have to do is stand under a vine and listen, simple as that. As for the cost of finding a new drug.... That's a complex question. I'll approach it by telling some anecdotes. 1. A lot of the initial scientific research on Echinacea is incorrect, because the researchers were bad taxonomists and chose the wrong species for their sample. Moral: Correct identification is CRITICAL. This week, the New York times ran an article, one of many noting how taxonomy is a disappearing science. Think about the connection for a second. 2. Drug companies can only make money off of novel products. There's a huge number of drug plants out there, but as one herbalist noted, "how many cures for an upset stomach do you need to know, anyway?" A lot of plants have similar chemicals and work in similar ways. Good for the herbalists, but useless for the drug prospectors. If they can't patent it in some form, they're not interested. 2b. How much does it cost to screen plants? Depends on the method. Davis and his cohorts try to short-circuit the screening process by checking out known herbal medicines. Still, it costs around a billion $US to bring a drug to market in the US, and that includes finding something that might work, clearing all regulatory hurdles and safety tests, plus that wonderful 30% of the budget to marketing (When the time is right...Cialis). This raises the question of how much it is worth to go prospecting, considering how big the strike has to be to pay off for the financiers. 2c. Who owns the knowledge? A company in Texas patented bismati rice, and someone attempted to patent yoga, both in the US. The Indian government has been creating a multi-lingual database of ayurvedic healing preparations, so that anyone who tries to patent a traditional Indian drug in another country can have their patent rejected out-of-hand. Nevertheless, people will use the patent process, especially in the US, to take advantage of tradtional knowledge and even to lock out the people who gave them that knowledge as a gift. I think Davis is a strong advocate for traditional knowledge, but there still is the question about whether the healers and shamans should be talking to him at all, if someone else is going to exploit their knowledge without recompensing them. 2d. Similarly, one can look at the drug molecules as a form of knowledge, and talk about whether the drug prospectors are willing to pay to conserve the forest they're prospecting in. In many cases, they are not, because the economics are messy. You only have to find the drug until you can synthesize it in a lab. Once it's synthesized, the forest is irrelevant to the drug company. Whether this is fair and reasonable is an ethical question. As I noted before, bioprospecting is a fad among drug companies with about a ten-year return interval. What happens is that they send out a bunch of drug prospectors, test whatever they find, and if they're lucky, bring something to market. If not, they get discouraged, and turn to some other field (like combinatorial chemistry or metagenomics, or whatever) to find new sources for potential drugs. When those fields don't pan out, they hear about some new, neat research about a class of novel biologicals, say the antibiotics found in the skins of frogs, and off they go to the jungle again. And so it goes. Long answer to a short question, David, but bioprospecting really is like any other form of prospecting. It's risky, and as a result, it tends to be faddish. Is it worth it? You tell me. I'm too busy panning for gold, given the current inflated market (oh wait, that was last year ). Best, F

13th August 2009, 09:54 PM	#38
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	This thread has drifted way off topic!!!!111!!!11one!! Let's get immediately back to fecal blades and penis-bone knives.

13th August 2009, 10:17 PM	#39
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Pass the Ayahuasca .

13th August 2009, 11:10 PM	#40
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Sure thing. Fine by me boss. Actually, it is interesting, because we collector-types don't normally collect improvised or discardable knives. Exceptions out there? Anyone? Still, it's an interesting area for those interested in very basic ideas of design (i.e., the category, "sharp edges, what can I make them from, part XXX.") Interestingly, there's a howto on how to make an ice knife. Don't know if it works, as it's summer here. Maybe someday I'll find out. As for the drugs, I'm surprised that no ones gotten into the curare angle. That's as neat a story as any, and it does have collectible artifacts associated with it. Blowguns anyone? Best, F

13th August 2009, 11:16 PM	#42
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	The ice knife idea is cool , but if you already have the chisel, rock or stick needed to fashion it i think you might make a better, more permanent knife out of them. Blow guns are also neat things, but i am afraid i do not have any. True though that we haven't had much discussion of them on these forums.

14th August 2009, 01:21 PM	#46
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Links for those wishing to know more about Wade Davis: The one we all saw earlier -- Video: Endangered cultures (2003) The story continues -- Video: Worldwide beliefs and rituals (2008) Interview with Anthropologist Wade Davis Links pertaining to Wade Davis

15th August 2009, 04:02 PM	#48
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Interesting synchronicity. This week in Science News, one of the feature stories is "Venom hunters: scientists probe toxins, revealing the healing powers of biochemical weapons." So that's where the bioprospecting action is right now, the rapidly growing field of "venomics" (and I'm not making the name up), a combination of the studies of venom effects and the genes and genomics behind it. Interesting stuff, if you're into bioscience. If you're not into it, just think of it as a way of turning pit viper venom into heart medications, or just a 21st century way of turning swords into plowshares. Best, Frank

17th August 2009, 01:18 AM	#50
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	very cool, thanks for posting this up!

30th August 2009, 09:39 PM	#52
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	This thread, which began with a sort of whimsical, yet interesting topic, has evolved into somewhat the pinnacle of off topic digression ...but I confess to having followed it with ever increasing fascination. I am constantly amazed at the incredible core of knowledge on such a vast array of fields here, many of course not directly related to weapons. One thing that I have found through many years of studying arms, often particularly with ethnographic forms, is that finding true understanding of them very often extends into subjects which would not seem related. One of my favorite areas in examining arms has always been markings and symbolism, and understanding these often leads down incredibly esoteric and even occult paths. This is especially the case in American Indian culture as well as Spanish colonial situations, where in many cases these have melded together. I could not resist following the Castaneda topic, which led me to the American Indian religions that follow the use of peyote and some of the other hallucinogenics, and its development from prehistoric times in America's southwest and northern Mexico. This leads to Meso American cultures, including the Aztecs and Olmecs, and the influences that evolved into the American Indian and Mexican cultures as well as Spanish, which in many cases included....weaponry. Bruno Thomas and Ortwin Gamber in thier 'Harnitschstudian' (Studies in Armour) from 1937-1955, convincingly explained that "...rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period". The study of art of course includes religion and all material culture, including that of folk religion, which as discusses, may often include botanicals that in turn include hallucinogens. Just my thoughts, and thanks for the intriguing discussion....really enjoyed the adventure and added some great dimension to my present studies in Spanish colonial and American southwest study. Best regards, Jim

30th August 2009, 10:04 PM	#53
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	The last practicing Kiowa horn doctor (a form of blood letting) uses buffalo horns handed down through her family and for cutting instruments, slivers of glass from broken brown (they have to be brown) booze bottles instead of splinters of buffalo bones like they used to. I use broken glass to scrape down bow staves, and brown glass is harder and sharper based on my admittedly subjective experience. What about the use of gar's teeth for scratching at the SE ceremonial grounds? Would that count as an improvised "knife"? As for hearing plants or animals sing, uh, the bad news is for the majority of folks on this board, (myself included) is that the don't speak English. Strangely enough, even sheep can speak Kiowa, but they don't speak English-I kid you not.

31st August 2009, 02:01 AM	#55
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Very nicely done guys!!! Talk about bringin it around.......beautiful. Aiontay, its always great to learn more on the true American Indian perspective, and Montino, well placed notes on the shamanic connections to weapons. All the very best, Jim

31st August 2009, 04:07 AM	#57
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	My Kiowa ancestors came out from underground through a hollow log as ants. A pregnant woman got caught and that is why there aren't too many of us. On my Chickasaw side, we came from the west and ended up in the SE USA, before the Andrew Jackson repaid our help in fighting the Brits with him at the Battle of New Orleans by removing us to Oklahoma. For a rather interesting story regarding the Chickasaw migration legend, which was a common one in the SE, read Du Pratz's story of a Yazoo Indian who basically tries to find out if the story is true. Du Pratz was a French settler in Louisiana in the early 18th century, and his book is available online. Which leads us to an Asian connection. Over here we say it was actually the other way around; you guys came from here (just kidding), and Du Pratz story indicates there might be a connection. My Kachin friends assert that their migrations legends lead them to believe that American Indians are their brothers. Interestingly enough, the linguist Sapir posited a link between the Tibeto-Burman languages and the Dine languages (Apache, Navajo, and tribes in Alaska and Canada). As for a link to the Philippines, the only link I can think of is that I've studied Pekiti Tirsia for over 20 years. Sorry, that's the best I can do. Oh, I like chocolate meat, which is a very Kiowa style dish. As for my last sentence, their is a Kiowa Christian hymn "Son of God, the Spirit of Joy He Is" or that's how it is translated into English. It is my favorite hymn. A number of years ago a Kiowa man's wife died. One day not long after her death he was walking along a country road and passed a herd of sheep, animals not native to the Americas. As he passed by the herd, he realized they were singing a hymn. That is where that song comes from, sheep. As my Yuchi friend said when I told him that story, "See their own animals don't speak English!"

31st August 2009, 12:42 PM	#60
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Hebrew or Arabic was the original language, of course, and plenty of ethnographic blades were used to prove that point. At least it was Semetic, and of course the animals understand it otherwise they would have gotten in the ark. Fearn it was the words, not the tune. The hymn is 20th Century and there are still people alive who know the "composer" ( now deceased). He wasn't a shepard. The interesting thing to me is there are lots of songs attributed to animals in all the tribes, but they all pre-date Christianity as far as I know. Now there are plenty of Indian hymns that came via dreams or direct revelation, sort of like lots of medicines. KukulzA28, Taiwan is a great place. I lived there for a year. Lots of interesting history.