Datu Ivory Kris

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by elevennevele

I don't see how you can honestly tell me that a person paying higher prices for something now doesn't share the same appreciation of an item as the person who was able to acquire items when they weren't as valued. Cheap items and expensive items both have unscrupulous sellers out to make a dollar and exploit the culture they are dealing in. Do you think all those selling their Soviet trinkets gave an impassioned thought about their own culture as they watched the items leave the borders of their homeland? Was that the noble process for the true collector who saw value in those trinkets??

I do not believe that I made an “all inclusive” statement that winning bidders or people paying higher prices for something do not share the same appreciation as any other collector. I just simply stated that the idea of paying $100 for a $1 sponge is insane.

Unscrupulous sellers… ???

The Russians sold their trinkets… and these trinkets found a market where collectors were willing to pick them up for their historical value (and not the princely sums they are today). Better to save and preserve these unwanted trinkets for research and study than to loose them… so by the way, why are you a collector?

Originally Posted by elevennevele

By your own testimony you have obviously collected things that were sitting somewhere probably neglected in someone's home and which didn't share that appreciation by the owner. And really, that is probably how you acquired these items on the cheap in the first place.

Actually… for me anyway, that is a rare event. At least until eBay came along… and even on eBay, most of the folks I purchase from are reputable dealers.

Originally Posted by elevennevele

In fact you contradicted yourself when you spoke of the Japanese re-purchasing their own history at much higher prices and undoubtedly pushed up values in the process of trying to acquire. That doesn't speak of a lack of appreciation, or foolish ignorance on the part of those collectors.

Actually, you missed my point again… When Japan surrendered in WWII, the US military banned these swords… and thousands were grounded up and melted down… and many thousands and thousands more were taken as souvenirs… the average soldier bringing these swords home did not appreciate what they had. It took the Japanese 40 years to gain the wealth to bring some of these sword back home… where they are again respected and appreciated. But the average Japanese family that lost a sword, will not own one of these again.

Originally Posted by elevennevele

Sure, I' m definitely seeing some irrational exuberance on eBay, and the hidden bidding is opening the door to being ripped off, and to me that is the real concern. The 'real issue' especially if the bidder has no intention of paying. However, to tell me that a person who is paying more than the expected going prices is simply a hoarder or doesn't share the level of appreciation as a collector as yourself is very presumptuous in my opinion. In fact it makes much more sense that a person who is simply out for the buck would want to acquire items as cheaply as possible.

Really, the person paying a hefty sum for something that has little purpose in today's age other than to admire or preserve is probably more researched for having spent that money and also would have probably then given thought to it's care for the investment alone. That at least insures more likely a greater care to the artifacts preservation. Maybe that person isn't as astute a collector as yourself, or as great a scholar of the artifact that he or she owns, but that has nothing to do with appreciation. Neither does collections in the hands of an even more knowledgeable collector equal the ability to give greater care of the item, or hold a greater means for sharing it with others.

And really, how many of you have bought things, only to become more knowledgeable or even more appreciative of the item after having owned it for a time? Sometimes the cart comes before the horse in collecting. Nothing wrong with that if the item was still purchased intentionally with a sense of appreciation.

You assume a lot and here is my point… if you do not appreciate the value of money, then how are you going to appreciate the value of what you have purchased… when obviously you do not understand what you have purchased (other than a sharp stabby thingy with an ivory handle)? If that is all the pleasure one gets… maybe they are in the wrong field.

And if a Datu sword still went for $50, who's to say a teenager with a nice allowance from parents wouldn't buy it simply because it's 'cool' only to let it sit in his closet gathering dust with that autographed baseball glove? For me being one who values preservation along with collecting, I'm a little more reassured for the culture in question if the hands exchanging the artifact at least see as much value towards the item as in the cost they are billing themselves for it.

I can not speak for Canada, but in the States… a teenager can not buy sharp stabby thingies… and at that time, I would love to have had that allowance. Of course that allowance would be in the $2000 range now.

In all honestly, I'm all for your thinking and I wish it were as you've said, but I think that is more 'idealism' towards the concept of collecting than anything else.

At least we found some common ground. Cheers to that.

[elevennevele]

This is what you originally said...

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Originally Posted by BSMStar
20 years ago, dealers were having a tough time selling true Datu quality Moro pieces for 45 to100 bucks… to see them today passing the $1000 mark and pushing towards $2000. That’s crazy. To see a “so-so” piece being pushed beyond that is pure insanity (someone was number 2 on this bid to drive it that high).

The point that I am trying to make… is that when people jump into “collecting” with little knowledge or care for the subject, are willing to throw big bucks at it for the simple reason of turning a profit… that kills it for collectors who have a passion and do it solely for the love of history and culture.

Simply... there is nothing left to study. It becomes locked up in some investor's closet.

Perhaps you wish to suggest other layers of context to these statements but these statements by themself seemed to imply a certain generalization of the buyer, and this forum topic was about the Datu Sword in question on eBay, so whether by mistake or not, I have to assume that was the focus of these comments of yours.

Sure, I perceive that lately certain moro items seem to be sought with an indulgent bid toward their acquisition, but you can't determine through such a high bid the character of the buyer, their motives, their passion, or their understanding and care of the item as was implied by your original post (unless they don't pay - which was 'my' point).

I'm well aware of the events surrounding the Japanese and their swords. However, again what does that have to do with supporting your viewpoint of moro weaponry being purchased at unfairly high prices by your estimate? Again, the motives of such re-purchases by the Japanese, especially with the history you added to share with everyone again refutes your original generalization about the buyer and the resulting market driven forces towards the particular area of collecting.

And that soldier you are referring to who took one of these swords without any real appreciation has no relationship to the buyers on eBay which again are the ones we are debating as to motive or character. The soldier with regards to taking swords are as you imply in the context of, "taken as souvenirs". What would the context of that have to do with a >$2000 bid on Moro Weaponary?

Originally Posted by BSMStar

You assume a lot and here is my point… if you do not appreciate the value of money, then how are you going to appreciate the value of what you have purchased… when obviously you do not understand what you have purchased (other than a sharp stabby thingy with an ivory handle)? If that is all the pleasure one gets… maybe they are in the wrong field.

The value one places towards their money, might have nothing to do with with a parallel value one might place on an ethnographic weapon. Everything has an fluctuating appraised value to it, but money in itself is just a means to an end. Maybe the person paying the high price appreciates the item more than their money. Maybe their money is more a disposable issue to them than missing out on the ownership of a particular item. That can be a subjective issue and outside the realm of what constitutes good business sense but really has nothing to do with your original implied generalization of the buyer in question. That being...

"little knowledge or care for the subject, are willing to throw big bucks at it for the simple reason of turning a profit… that kills it for collectors who have a passion and do it solely for the love of history and culture.

Simply... there is nothing left to study. It becomes locked up in some investor's closet."

My comment about a teenager owning a Datu item in their closet was simply a felicitous suggestion about how lower values for such artifacts do not ensure that those who collect for "the love of the history and culture" will be the ones given such lower prices to own such items.


I'm not out to turn this into a game of semantics, but I still felt the need to support the integrity of the position I was making. You obviously come across as a noble collector of items and having good intentions towards them so I don't in any way fault your passion at trying to take me to task on this message board with such viewpoints. I happy to know such artifacts are in your hands, and I can only hope that the majority of such things we all appear to appreciate here are likewise in similar collector's possession.

[BSMStar]

elevennevele, keep reading the posts. Enlightenment will come.

[Ian]

BSMStar and elevennevele:


Please take further discussion about what whom may or may not have said to PM or email. This debate is getting off topic.

Ian.