Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

[David]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

If you choose the "nyek" method, then you simply crushed the warangan, mixed it with "air jeruk nipis" (squeezed lime liquid), then brushed the blade with warangan. Of course, you must first "mutih" (brushed the blade with lime liquid and cream soap many time, then brush and brush with lime liquid until "white" as if it is painted with "metalic paint"...)

Ganja, i am by no means a expert at staining blades. I have had fairly satisfactory results though. I am confused by what you call "mutih", firstly because it is the first i have heard of it and secondly because i do not know what you mean by "cream soap". I do, of course, get my blades "white" before i begin the staining processes. I am always interested in anything that can improve my results so maybe you could explain "mutih" further.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by David

I am confused by what you call "mutih", firstly because it is the first i have heard of it and secondly because i do not know what you mean by "cream soap". I do, of course, get my blades "white" before i begin the staining processes. I am always interested in anything that can improve my results so maybe you could explain "mutih" further.

Please don't be confused with word of "mutih" in "fasting tradition" -- "pasa mutih" is only eating white rise -- without side-disk. But "mutih keris blade" is whitening-the-blade process (?). Of course, I don't create myself this mewarangi term. I think, every keris staining specialist in Solo, they know what "mutih bilah keris" (to make keris blade 'white', before staining process) is.

I am not a staining expert, though I can stain keris. But have no time to stain kerises by myself due to my limited free time. Usually I clean all of my keris blade, soak them in "blandongan" with coconut's water for couple of days. After one or two days, then I brush each blade with very soft tooth-brush, or other kind of soft brush with "air jeruk nipis" (squeezed lime juice) mixed with (Indonesian) cream-detergent (for instance, "Wing" cream detergent, or B 29) -- in the old days usually we used "buah kelerak" (certain fruit, traditionally used for cleaning batik clothes in Java -- some day I will photo this special fruit)... Just cleaning all the dirt, oil, and also rust from the blades, before the "mutih" the blade process.

To do the "mutih" the blade job, usually I mixed squeezed lime juice with cream detergent (this is of course, a contemporary way in Solo, Jogya, Jakarta and else where in Jawa) then brush and brush the blade again. Sometimes, I used the very soft ashes -- mixed with squeezed lime juice/cream detergent. Please, not to strong brushes with ashes... just to remove oil residue of the blade. The finishing process of "mutih" the keris blade is brush and brush the blade with squeezed lime juice only, until become "white".

To do the best "koloh" method staining job, you need to do the "mutih" process perfectly. Usually, I do this process by myself, then I give the further process of staining to some staining specialist -- in Jakarta, or in Yogyakarta and Solo.

Keris staining specialist in Solo, usually they have their formula of warangan fluid. Mixing warangan fluid, is also not as that simple. It needs month of making "warangan jadi" (ready to use warangan) -- in at least two different characteristic (sorry for explaining in English badly, David). Strong mixture -- in our colloquial slang, we call it "warangan galak" and the soft one as "warangan nom".

To make "warangan nom" become "warangan galak", then just put more crushed warangan, and also more lime-juice. The process sometimes take quite a long time...

Once again, I apologize, I can not explain to you clearly...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

I also am no expert on the staining of keris, but I have been staining keris since I was about 17 or 18, and I am now 68. That's a pretty long time. I taught myself to stain keris by reading descriptions in books written during colonial times by British people who had visited, or who were resident in Malaya. Before I ever went to Indonesia I knew three different methods, and of these I had found that the most effective did not involve arsenic at all, but used sulphur, salt and rice water.

The first lessons I had on staining keris in Jogja came from an old gentleman who was introduced to me as "Romo Murdo". From him I learnt a very quick and easy way to bring a blade back to an acceptable condition with very little effort. This method is the basis for the brushing method that I recommend to people who want to know how to stain a keris. However, my recommendations incorporate things that I did not learn in Jogja.

After this Jogja lesson I then learnt other ways of using warangan and of staining keris; some of these ways were variations of the Romo Murdo method, others were considerably different, such as the soak method.I learnt these varying ways over a very long period and from a number of people in Solo and Malang.Often my lessons came in disjointed sections, and the people I learnt from were totally unaware that they were teaching me.

Pak Parman taught me the very best method. It is produces excellent results, is virtually fail proof, but has high potential for danger.

In all methods, one thing is absolutely certain:- the end result depends very much on the surface preparation before staining commences.

Pak Ganja has explained his approach.

Pak Parman taught me only to scrub to whiteness with cleaning ash (abu gosok) and coconut husk; use of water as the lubricant is preferred, and after the blade is white, lime juice without warangan is used to sensitise the blade for the initial warangan application. I have used this cleaning method many times, and it is effective.

In Australia I do not use ash, nor coconut husk to get the blade white. I use sink cleaner such as Ajax, and steel wool or scotchbrite pads. I feel that these materials probably give a better result than the ash and coconut husk.

Whatever is used is probably not at all important.What is important is that the blade surface must be absolutely spotless, especially in the depressions and grain openings found in old blades, if you do not get rid of dirt and residual rust completely you will finish up with green or yellow discolouration under the apparently black surface.

If you want to see how good a staining job is you must take the blade into direct sunlight and look at it at an angle so that you can see into the stain. I examine in this way every blade that I pay to have done, and I usually reject at least 50% of those blades. If you only look at a blade in indirect light you cannot see the imperfections in the staining. If you look at it inside a building, you will never see anything.

A really good staining job takes a long time to do, and can require adjustment of contrast even when it is seemingly finished. It is an art, and in my experience very few people can practice this art effectively.

However, almost anybody can get a decent result just by following instructions and using common sense.

[David]

Thank you so much Alan. Though i cannot really tell until i make my next attempt, i believe the little tips you have given here will improve my staining skills a good 50%.

[A. G. Maisey]

You do a pretty fair job as it is , David.

You know, you can sometimes return a dirty old blade to almost good just by washing it with dishwash detergent and a hard toothbrush. Just wash it at the sink with hot water, blow dry with a hairdryer after patting dry with a lint free cloth, and then drench with WD40.

This is a simple thing to do, but it really can bring a lousy looking blade back to life. Sure, it won't be as good as a complete clean and stain, but it can improve a blade enormously.

[ganjawulung]

.. And for 'traditional staining' in Jawa, not only the preparation of "mutih" the blade is absolutely important, but also the formula of mixing the ready-to-use warangan. (The art is here. I have certain friends in Solo who has private empirical solution to make a better warangan, such as -- mixing the warangan with 'spoiled rice', and so on). According to my experience -- and also my keris-stainer friend in Solo -- warangan liquid made of (we call it) "warangan apotik" (literally means 'drugstore arsenic' or chemical arsenic), usually is quick reacting but more corrosive. After couple of months stained with "warangan apotik" then usually the edge of the keris usually "ngrikit" (corroded). Maybe because of the purity of the arsenic.

That is why in Yogya and Solo, people still prefer to choose "natural arsenic" or we usually call it "warangan". Traditionally used by our ancestor in the past. Usually, chinese warangan (imported from China). Even we don't use local (Indonesian) warangan, because of the worse quality then the chinese...

The impurity of the arsenic in warangan, maybe the clue... Not too corrosive as "warangan apotik"...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide is most definitely not corrosive.

I have used this material on more keris than I can count over a 50 year period. Many of these keris that I have stained with this material I still have in my own collection.It has absolutely no corrosive effect on a blade.

Moreover, I do not find it quicker acting. Both arsenic trioxide and traditional warangan react differently on different blades, sometimes they will work quickly, sometimes slowly.

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good.

The blades shown in my post # 13 were both done with arsenic; the waved blade had previously been done with warangan but was unsatisfactory.

This shown blade below was done with traditional warangan.

All these blades have been stained for a number of years , the one below for about 25 years.

Both materials give a good result if you understand the process.

Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish.

As for the soak method of staining, frankly I dislike it. It is unreliable and inconsistent, but it is cheap and not labour intensive, and the only commercially viable way to stain a blade. Of course the people who stain blades for a living will speak highly of this method, but I've seen the results produced by the very best in this field, and I still reject much of their work.

As always each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but this time I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating demonstrable fact.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish..

I saw, that both your examples are 'newer' blades. How about your experience of staining of your old blades? My opinion is based on my own experience on my old blades...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_trioxide
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg168.pdf
http://health.yahoo.com/leukemia-med...-d04720a1.html

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, that's arsenic trioxide. Which we already know. What is the relevance of the links?

What we're talking about here is the supposed greater corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide over warangan.

In this respect I have not noticed any difference between warangan and arsenic trioxide.

None at all.

Arsenic is very mildly acidic. Lime juice itself is far more acidic than arsenic.

So is vinegar.

So is pineapple juice.

So is coconut water.

So is dilute hydrochloric acid.

So is dilute sulphuric acid.

So is citric acid.

And all these quite mild acids are regularly used to clean keris blades.

Yes, the three blades I've posted pics of are all new blades. I made two of them, Yantono made one of them.They're new.

I've used arsenic trioxide on old blades many times, but I cannot recall exactly which old blades that I still have that I've done with arsenic --- or more correctly, there are a couple I can easily ID as having been done with arsenic, but I do not publish photos of my personal keris. I have probably still got some blades that I've done with arsenic that are ID'd as blades that I will sell, and if I can find one or two I'll put up pics of those too.

However, the long and the short of it is that I have never noted any corrosive effect flowing from use of arsenic trioxide.

In my experience this corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide simply does not exist.

Not only does it not exist in my experience, but the claim is impossible to support with logic, given the relative acidity of arsenic trioxide and lime juice.

If a blade edge has become eroded following the staining process it will be because of some factor other than the use of arsenic trioxide.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, .... .

Would you please clarify this sentence, Mr Maisey? Thank you in advance...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, this is the sentence I wrote:-

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide.

Read the entire sentence and I'm certain it is perfectly clear.

Read the paragraph and there can be doubt at all of my meaning:-

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good.

However, just so there will be no doubt at all about my meaning I will attempt to clarify, as you have requested.

I am drawing a comparison between my actual experience over a very long period of time, involving a very large number of blades, and using both substances, namely traditional warangan, and lab. quality arsenic trioxide, and your recounting of the experience of others that has been related to you.

As you would appreciate, this is the difference between extensive first hand experience, my own, and your received reports and impressions from other people.

You are perfectly at liberty to ignore or discount my comments if you so desire, because in fact, from your perspective, my recounted experience need carry no more weight than the experiences of others that have similarly been presented to you.

Your acceptance or rejection of my comments is of absolutely no importance to me:- I have told what I know to be true and I see no need to prove anything to you, nor to any other person. However, your acceptance of the results of my experience could be to your benefit, although this acceptance would not make one iota of difference to my state of existence.

[David]

I do not have anywhere near the staining experience that Alan has, but i must report that i have never had a corrosive effect from staining with arsenic trioxide. I do not have any experience with warangan to compare with, but no corrosive effect is still no corrosive effect and does not need comparison to be a true statement.
I also am not sure why Ganja provided these links to arsenic trioxide warnings either. You will notice that these are basically warnings about ingestion. Again, i would recommend that it is just plain common sense that you not lick your fingers when working with this stuff, do it in a safe environment and clean up well when you are finished. Warangan would be similarly poisonous if ingested so the same warnings would stand for it as well.
Ganja, i believe Alan's remark about "yarns and second hand stories" was not aimed specifically at you. Such second hand advice has been sprinkled throughout this thread and frankly i have found some of it to be questionable info. So far Alan is the only person who has posted information on this thread who has had a vast amount of consistent first-hand staining experience with both lab arsenic and realgar. This experience spans the past 50 years! I am personally willing to hear the advice of others with such experience. But i am more likely to give credence to the first-hand informant with vast knowledge of the process than i am to believe second-hand info for informants i have no personal connection with.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You are perfectly at liberty to ignore or discount my comments if you so desire, because in fact, from your perspective, my recounted experience need carry no more weight than the experiences of others that have similarly been presented to you. .

I always take positive sides on anything. Even on negative situation. Anyway, thanks for your comments, Alan.

Originally Posted by David

I am personally willing to hear the advice of others with such experience. But i am more likely to give credence to the first-hand informant with vast knowledge of the process than i am to believe second-hand info for informants i have no personal connection with.

Thanks, thanks a lot, David....

GANJAWULUNG

[kulbuntet]

Dear GANJAWULUNG,

I thought it was the other way around?

SIRAMAN (BATHING) METHOD
There are other types of bathing:
1. Nyek, a mixture of citrus with warangan and cemengan (darkened aste water of marangi). Whitened keris are sun dried between 8 and 11 in the morning. After keris is warm, fingers are dipped into the mixture and pressed into tosan aji from hilt to tip until the tosan aji becomes black. Then, water is poured to the tosan aji and brushed with ash. This step is called dikeplok. Then the blade is brushed carefully so the black layer stays. Next, tosan aji is wiped and sun dried. This process is repeated until desired result is acquired. Next, tosan aji is washed with ash to remove the citrus acid. Then washed with clean water and sun dried. After tosan aji is dry, it is oiled.
2. Blonon (koyoh), similar to nyek, but, tosan aji is not pressed with fingers but brushed to apply warangan. After tosan aji is dark, it is immediately being dikeplok with ash. This process is repeated until the ornaments boldens.
3. Koloh, using other place, whitened tosan aji is dipped into citrus warangan mixture with cemengan. After a few minutes, tosan aji is lifted and dried. Then, water is poured and dikeplok. The process is repeated and tosan aji is not sun dried. The key factors of the success of this method lie on the keplok step. The black color on iron can slowly sink in to the iron.

regards

Edit,

I think i may understand what GANJAWULUNG means with the term corrosif (pls correct me iff im wrong!). Not corrosif as in acid, but like in reactable. I does react to the iron. The blacker the iron becomes, the ticker the reacted layer of iron. The more the iron is "eaten"(reacted to a arsenic iron compound). Iff you do this every year, like in surra month usual is... in years it will eat a piece of your keris...

[kulbuntet]

I do hsare your opinion about that diffrent blades (pamor technices+material) need diffent aproach. Yes a new blade with pamor neckel/nickel/titanium or something that is pure. Needs a more stong solution, now since that AsS or As2S3 do not solve as good than As2O3(20Gr/l) And trioxide is wtronger to react.. beter to use trioxide. But with old blades as pamor Luwu and Pramamban beter to use less strong solution, realgar does the job good engouh. Just need to give it more time. My experience with realgar is that the solution does need time too to get on strenght.

here some pic of my just finished blade. Hope the pice are good enough

notice the bath on the left.




BTW, this is ther Yogja Keris with the square peksi!

[David]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

I do hsare your opinion about that diffrent blades (pamor technices+material) need diffent aproach. Yes a new blade with pamor neckel/nickel/titanium or something that is pure. Needs a more stong solution, now since that AsS or As2S3 do not solve as good than As2O3(20Gr/l) And trioxide is wtronger to react.. beter to use trioxide. But with old blades as pamor Luwu and Pramamban beter to use less strong solution, realgar does the job good engouh. Just need to give it more time.

Just a thought. Can't the strength of the solution be adjusted based on the amount of arsenic used in the solution. As2O3 is stronger than realgar, but if you use less in your solution than your solution should be weaker, right?
Thanks for showing us part of your process Michel. I like your home made staining trough. Frankly i am picking up a tip or two from all these different methods which i believe will be helpful to my process in the end.

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by David

Just a thought. Can't the strength of the solution be adjusted based on the amount of arsenic used in the solution. As2O3 is stronger than realgar, but if you use less in your solution than your solution should be weaker, right?
Thanks for showing us part of your process Michel. I like your home made staining trough. Frankly i am picking up a tip or two from all these different methods which i believe will be helpful to my process in the end.

Hi David,

Yes of coarse, your thinking is correct. When i make a solution i make it as a stock solution... this means as strong as it can get and put a bit extra in it, to lay on botom of the yar( see pic one left top). Let it stand for a year. As you can see on the pic, my bath is almost black coloured. It was a year ago just yellowish (lime juice colour). The warangan need to solve slowly, because i must be extraced from the mineral.

These stock solutions are so strong that even with colder temperature it wil darken a blade, but not with good results.. when you want to do some work.. just dillute it a bit, when stil to stong a bit more.. dilluting a solution is posible and wil keep the solution good to go.. but when to weak.. put more in.. normal.. but before it wil work.. one year later. The use of trioxid is easy because it wil work when you make it.. because the faster solving of the salt (As2O3).

Another tip!, i dont trow away anny thing... same for the waste water. It holds a bit or warangan, so i recycle it it it gets stronger, than it can be used to dillute or vaporised bath. Or for slow washing realy old blades.

[A. G. Maisey]

A.--- An old Madura blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1965.

B.--- An old Sumatra blade, stained in about 1960 with sulphur, salt, rice water.

C.--- An old Bali blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1962; this blade was extremely corroded and had deteriorated badly prior to the clean and stain.

D.--- An old South Sumatra blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1974.

E.--- An old Surakarta blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1978; this blade was purchased from an English dealer and is attributed to Wirasukadgo.

F.--- An old Bali/Lombok blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1970.

G.--- An old Peninsular Bugis blade, stained with warangan in Jogjakarta in 1972 by Romo Murdo; this was a "quick fix" stain, not a proper clean and stain.

H.--- An old Jawa blade (Senopaten), stained with warangan in Jogjakarta in 1978; this is a standard commercial stain.

I.--- A keris made by Empu Suparman in 1982 and stained by him using warangan.

J.--- My first attempt at pamor in a keris blade, made in 1980 before I was taught by Pak Parman, this stain was done with arsenic trioxide.

K.--- My first attempt at pamor in a dagger blade, made in 1980, this blade is the same construction as a keris, with a steel core and pamor of nickel and iron on its faces, the blade has not been stained but only etched with dilute hydrochloric acid.

K1.--- Close up of K.

L.--- A dagger of damascus which I made in about 1985, this is made of wrought iron and 01 steel, it was etched with hydrochloric acid, stained with ferric chloride, then washed with white wine vinegar.

L1.--- Close up of L1.

Looks like they've been posted here in a very disordered fashion, guess you'll just have to look for the titles.

[A. G. Maisey]

I had 14 pics but could only upload 12 at a time, so here are the las two:-

L.--- A dagger of damascus which I made in about 1985, this is made of wrought iron and 01 steel, it was etched with hydrochloric acid, stained with ferric chloride, then washed with white wine vinegar.

L1.--- Close up of L1.

[David]

Thank you so much for this presentation Alan.
Just a bit off topic because it is not a keris, but i really like the design of this last blade you posted. Very eloquent.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks David. It is one of the better things I've done.

I'm not so sure that this is off-topic, because what we're talking about is blade staining, and I believe that this encompasses more than just keris and arsenic. I've stained many different types of materials, and I've used many different substances to achieve the stains. The wider one's experience the more that experience can contribute towards the achievement of excellence in just one medium.

What I've tried to do with these pics is to show some of the variations that can occur.

Here is a side view of that damascus dagger.

[kulbuntet]

nice work Alan,

Like A+B, love G, Kenanga? Would love to get my hands on some sekar blades to.. difficult to find good ones. Iff do.. way to expencive for my little wallet :S

Pic of some chunks waragnan, and trioxid pot.


here some more (clearer) pics of the blade recently done. Notice the square peksi, as writen of in other thread. For the ones remembering, that i did promise to post pics... after long search (at my moms house). found it but did not want to show without good clean and wash. Beter late than never.

[Marcokeris]

.....here some more (clearer) pics of the blade recently done. Notice the square peksi, as writen of in other thread. For the ones remembering, that i did promise to post pics... after long search (at my moms house). found it but did not want to show without good clean and wash. Beter late than never.

Yes it's too dark!!. I 'ld try to wash it with a little lemon juice in the water... or a lot of cream soap over my fingers (...if the cream becames yellow...great day!! )

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

.....here some more (clearer) pics of the blade recently done. Notice the square peksi, as writen of in other thread. For the ones remembering, that i did promise to post pics... after long search (at my moms house). found it but did not want to show without good clean and wash. Beter late than never.

Yes it's too dark!!. I 'ld try to wash it with a little lemon juice in the water... or a lot of cream soap over my fingers (...if the cream becames yellow...great day!! )

Opinion or fact? And can you underbuild you statment how it should look like... pics please.. from a equal blade with same pamor material! Not technique. Would like to see what you like/mean.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Opinion or fact? And can you underbuild you statment how it should look like... pics please.. from a equal blade with same pamor material! Not technique. Would like to see what you like/mean.

I dont have an equal blade with same pamor material

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

I dont have an equal blade with same pamor material

did you ever wash one like it?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, in the photos this blade looks too dark.

But it may not be.

We do not know what the true colour of the material is:- we can all only work within the limits of the material.

It is not possible to make a Tuban blade look like a Surakarta blade.

Maybe what we see here is the correct colour for this blade.

Look at the examples I have posted:- there is a lot of variation in colour, and this is only a small sample, in reality, blade colours can vary a lot more than this.

Because of the limits of the material we need to be able to classify a blade according to tangguh so that we can recognise when the blade colour is correct.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

did you ever wash one like it?

like it never
...but i washed a lot (sometime a lot of time only for one blade )

[kulbuntet]

hmm, oke.

I do share you opinion that some blades have to done of and over again. I is same like handeling people man or woman( one even more difficult than other :-)
especialy when you dont know the blade/ person.... And even iff you get to know how he/she is for person.. stil have to figure out what is good or wrong. like in clothing... but the clothes have to fit..

Iff there are 2 dresses for putting one one woman... you realy like the white neat dress.... but she is size 32 and the dress is size 28.... will it fit?

just try to make a point here.. hope its clear, probaly wont be ...

let say iff i thought it was not good, for this keris.. would not have post it.. would already have washed it back.. no detergent/lime.. just cocowater.. does the job too and neutralise the arsenic still in the blade.

Would hope that you can find a pic on the net or so, to show me what contrast you prefer. Btw some of Alan's blades the besi much darker.. But also diffent background and photo's..some dry some in oil, some newisch, some old pamor... I dont think it's posible to get same results on diffrent blades, with manny diffrent factors, influencing the results. But that also it a opinion... Open for dialogue

regards

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, in the photos this blade looks too dark.

But it may not be.

We do not know what the true colour of the material is:- we can all only work within the limits of the material.

It is not possible to make a Tuban blade look like a Surakarta blade.

Maybe what we see here is the correct colour for this blade.

Look at the examples I have posted:- there is a lot of variation in colour, and this is only a small sample, in reality, blade colours can vary a lot more than this.

Because of the limits of the material we need to be able to classify a blade according to tangguh so that we can recognise when the blade colour is correct.

Oke Alan, good comment.. cleary build..how can i be of asistence to give you more info to give you a clear impression of the blade (tanguh). Must i post dry pics?

addon,

this blade is when in oil (not like in pic) almost same colour.