Is gold or suasa 'better'? - Page 2

Maurice · 27th December 2015, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In this matter under discussion, this is the situation as I understand it:-

The notes that G. E. Rumphius used to produce his masterwork were gathered in the 1600's and not published until the 1700's.

In this work he makes a comment based upon (at best) third or fourth hand information that infers a talismanic quality being attributed to suasa in what, at that time, was Mataram (Central Jawa).

So let us assume that it was at least rumoured that at some time, in some place suasa might have had some sort of talismanic quality attributed to it. Let us further assume that during the 1600's, in Central Jawa, suasa had a talismanic value attributed to it.

Personally, I have no problem at all with this, because in Jawa, talismanic values are attributed to just about everything under the sun (& moon & stars). Nothing exists or happens without having some sort of value being attributed to it by somebody.

However, I do have a couple of questions in respect of the comments attributed to G.E. Rumphius:-

1) are these comments on suasa sourced from a VOC journal?

2) in what published work are the reports of metallurgical examinations of suasa, sourced from the Dutch East Indies, reported?

and

3) do we know of any other historical reports that attribute talismanic qualities to suasa, in any other place in the geographic locations where suasa was produced?

I don't know why the information would be from third or fourth hand information? I can not find it anywhere. He visited the area himself, and lived since 1657 in Ambon, and in 1662 he travelled to the Banda area.
His work of 1661 foliosheets were shipped to the Republic with the ship "Waterland", but all got lost during a sea battle near "Bordeaux".
However, Johannes Camphuys, had during his life made copies of Rumphius work, and therefore it took so long in between to publish all the work of Rumphius.

Your questions:
1) Rumphius was working for the VOC as a military engineer, and I don't know if his work had been used in VOC journals. These are not published as far as I know, and to do some more research one need to have lots of time and also visit The Hague, were the journals are stored (as far as I know).
Also it is a kind of old dutch languague, which doesn't make it easy to read.
But it must be clear for everybody that Rumphius had the VOC mentality, and his work probably went much further as a VOC journal.

2) I have no idea. In his same work, where Rumphius is quoting about gold and silver tests. Again the VOC journals are many and one need to have lots of time to research them all, and find all information about suassa if there is any.

3) I will have to research Rumphius article more intensively.

Now to me also questions arise:
Do you have such old information written about gold, that this had been preferred over suassa considering its talismanic aspects?
Or is it for collectors assumably because more gold is found instead of suassa?
I came across a source, Rumphius, thanks to Loedjoe, that it was (and if this information is right or not can not be hunt down because of the big timespan I'm afraid).
You are asking me for more sources, which possibly is impossible to find without doing lots of research. But I didn't have found one of the same age which is telling gold had been preferred over suassa.

Maurice · 27th December 2015, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, for me the question isn't so much as to whether or not talismanic properties were attributed to suasa in 17th or 18th century Jawa. As Alan points out, talismanic properties are attributed to just about everything, especially things considered precious such as valuable metals. What i am questioning here is the claim that suasa was preferred over gold. If it was one has to wonder why then there are so many more existing examples of the use of gold on keris than there are suasa, especially when one considers that suasa has a lower monetary value than gold. I could literally fill pages upon pages here with photographs of examples of the use of gold in this context, however the existing examples of suasa used on keris seem substantially lower. Why would this be the case if indeed suasa was a preferred metal?

Yes I am fully aware of that. Everything that looks nice, different etc. must be talismanic at those times (and still) in Indonesia.

I thought I answered your questions before. Gold was something everybody wanted to have, even Rumphius is explaining that allready in his very early work! Therefor you can fill pages upon pages with photographs of examples with gold in this context, as anybody wanted to have it. It was luxury property, and probably also talismanic!
But next to the small chapter of gold, he has a larger chapter of suassa, which had to be much more interesting as the gold that anybody owned!
And he stated there that suassa was preferred over gold because of the talismanic properties, not that suassa is on the same level with gold on luxury property.

Maybe it could be, that suassa was so powerfull that not everybody was able or dared to wear suassa?

PS can you show me an old source that gold was preferred to suassa from a similar age?

David · 27th December 2015, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maurice

Yes I am fully aware of that. Everything that looks nice, different etc. must be talismanic at those times (and still) in Indonesia.

I thought I answered your questions before. Gold was something everybody wanted to have, even Rumphius is explaining that allready in his very early work! Therefor you can fill pages upon pages with photographs of examples with gold in this context, as anybody wanted to have it. It was luxury property, and probably also talismanic!
But next to the small chapter of gold, he has a larger chapter of suassa, which had to be much more interesting as the gold that anybody owned!
And he stated there that suassa was preferred over gold because of the talismanic properties, not that suassa is on the same level with gold on luxury property.

Maybe it could be, that suassa was so powerfull that not everybody was able or dared to wear suassa?

PS can you show me an old source that gold was preferred to suassa from a similar age?

Maurice, i am afraid that i do not have much access to any old source material from this time. Anything that i have read about the practices of wearing gold come from authors who have gotten their information from such sources. Generally what i have read is that wearing gold dress keris was usually restricted to the court classes, so in those days i would presume that just "anybody" did not own gold and certainly did not dress their keris with it.
I am still waiting to see some examples of these talismanical powerful suasa dressed keris however and no one has yet posted any examples. I do, of course, believe that suasa was used in keris dress from time to time, but i can't say that i have actually seen any examples. One would think that if it were truly preferred as a material over gold we would at least see it's use a bit more in actual examples of keris dress. One would think that if suasa were truly considered more powerful than gold that it would have been used more often in kinatah over the more pure gold we generally see. I certainly don't doubt that Rumphius wrote these things, but that does not necessarily make them true. Frankly, despite his accounts it just does not sound logical to me based on everything else i have been led to believe on how gold is viewed in this society. There are just so many factors that could have led him to a misleading conclusion on this. It is certainly not information i have ever seen elsewhere. So please forgive me if i remain skeptical without some more evidence, both academic and physical to bare it out.

A. G. Maisey · 27th December 2015, 06:11 PM

Maurice, at the moment I do not have time to respond in depth to your post # 31, however, as you say G.E. Rumphius worked in Ambon, but he refers to the "Susuhunan" and to Jawa.

In the 1600's Ambon and Mataram (Central Jawa) were about as connected as Palermo and Port Moresby are today, in fact not as well connected as Palermo and Port Moresby today.

G.E.Rumphius was freed from his duties with the VOC to permit him to concentrate on his work as a naturalist. He was an amateur ethnographer, but his primary focus was the study of the natural history of Ambon.

It is entirely possible that he heard of the talismanic properties attributed to suasa in Mataram from some Ambonese traveller, or perhaps in Batavia, but his CV does not list duty in Mataram, and in the 1600's Mataram was pretty unsettled territory, delegations to the rulers in Mataram were very probably few and far between, if they existed at all.

In order to understand the veracity of G.E.Rumphius' comments on suasa, we need to try to place them into context. One way in which to begin this effort would be to look closely at his CV. There is a lot of info online concerning G.E.Rumphius.

kai · 27th December 2015, 06:41 PM

Hello all,

Sorry for chiming in late. I believe that Alan's initial response sums it up quite nicely:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

If we say "better", my immediate question is "better in what way"?

What we know is that gold is most certainly the very best and most highly regarded material to adorn a blade, and it is the material of choice to calm the disturbing or evil influences that may inhabit a blade.

If suasa is preferred over gold as a material for dress purposes, my own feeling would be that those who say or indicate they prefer it are making a virtue of necessity.

In the culture of Jawa , gold holds a place above all else as a material of honour. Historically rulers used to give gold in huge quantities to buy support.

Within Javanese society gold has historically been used as the measure of all value:- a debt of currency will be expressed as a weight of gold, and you repay the gold weight extressed as currency when you repay the debt. This has been the case for a very long time.

Gold is firmly fixed in the Javanese mind as the only thing of true worth --- even my own daughter-in-law will not wear any jewellery unless it is gold. I know people whom I consider to be relatively poor who will save every spare rupiah until they have sufficient to buy some gold, and along the way, they will refuse to wear costume jewellery, because if they can't wear gold, they will wear nothing.

If Javanese royalty preferred suasa to gold, I feel that perhaps a few stories may have been invented to justify that preference.

It is beyond doubt that gold was the major store of wealth and status throughout all of the SEA archipelago from ancient times on (maybe except for very remote cultures); cultures with own gold deposits had an edge... Also the female part of the population, from all accounts that I know of, relied on gold jewellery to independently store wealth (if possible at all).

However, I'm with Maurice that Rumphius' account certainly needs to be taken into account since it is one of the few very early *and* extensive sources and actually quite similar to the important Chinese reports.

Note that he also mentions gold keris hilts filled with resin in an earlier passage. When talking about suasa, he first mentions two other ethnic groups: "Therefore the Malays and Makassarese like to use suasa for keris and their weapons, for luck in war" - obviously this is specifically addressing weapons and not general storage of wealth. I'm not sure wether Rumphius' concept of "Malays" includes Aceh and possibly even Palembang. However, it should be noted that together with these 2 additional spheres of influence, peninsular Malay and Bugis/Gowa weapons are among those which do exhibit suasa decoration most often (and of course, there are many royal/state pieces which are clad in high-carat gold as well)... So there may be some truth to this account.

When he goes on to discuss Jawa, he also first focuses on weapons: "the Javanese can produce suasa in thin sheets, and use it to mount their keris sheaths" - with very few surviving examples and likely non-random sampling from that period this may be difficult to verify (pieces remaining inside the Javanese cultures had to be redressed at least several times and this will be done according to the latest fads wiping out any earlier preferences).

Only his statement "The Javanese esteem suasa more highly than gold, and their emperor, the Susuhunan, wears it more than gold." seems to run against what we believe to know. I still need to check wether the original context was possibly meant to be restricted to weapons rather than a general comment; since he also mentioned gold keris hilts, I don't think we are forced to decide between 2 different takes on history here...

Regards,
Kai

David · 27th December 2015, 09:36 PM

For those who would like to access this source, this entire volume of Rumphius is available on line. Really wishing i knew Dutch at this point because using google translator line by line is an extremely arduous task to say the least when you cannot copy & paste the material, but those with a handle on the language might like to find these quotes in context.

https://archive.org/stream/DAmboinsc...e/202/mode/2up

Maurice · 27th December 2015, 10:55 PM

Thank you all for participating, but I'm afraid that I also am too busy, and therefore no time to discuss it deeply furthermore.
But I think it was good discussing this Rumphius suassa text, and maybe in future if somebody finds out more about this, could add it in this thread.
Or maybe friendcollectors here in the forum have some kerisses with suassa to show us here in this thread?

I just want to say that Rumphius arrived in Batavia in 1653, and as far as I can make out of the story, he left there in 1657, so he spent several years on Java.
Also when you look at his work (David posted the link), I can't say this is work for an amateur.
I'm afraid that if you would like to translate, it would not work out as the text is in old style Dutch. And even I, as a Dutchman, am not reading it easily.

Alan, David and Kai thank you for participating, and Loedjoe thank you for alerting us about Rumphius and his suassa findings.
And whatever is the truth, maybe we will find something more lateron to add here.
Anyway it was a remarkable text what Rumphius is writing, and I still have the feeling it will not be unfounded. : )

Best wishes,
Maurice

David · 28th December 2015, 12:35 AM

No worries Maurice, but of course, no reason for the discussion to end. I should hope these discussions never depend on the back and forth of just a couple individuals and the thread will, of course, always be here for you to return to.
While Rumphius was indeed in Batavia for for 4 years from 1653-7, where he began as a midshipman and ended as an engineer and ensign, i am not convinced that he began his ethnographic studies until he left the service to continue as a civilian employee of the VOC. He didn't begin his serious studies of the flora and fauna of Ambon until 1662, 5 years after his arrival there. The book linked above wasn't published until 1705, 3 years after his death. His masterwork, Herbarium Amboinense, wasn't published until 39 years after his death in 1741. What a shame not to have seen all his efforts come to fruition in his lifetime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Eberhard_Rumphius
Not really pertinent to this discussion, but just because i find it odd, i wonder why the version of his portrait that you posted (also included on the Wiki page) is identical to the one included in D'Amboinsche Rariteitkamer except that it is missing the animal hanging on the wall.

kai · 28th December 2015, 02:53 AM

Hello David,

Quote:

While Rumphius was indeed in Batavia for for 4 years from 1653-7, where he began as a midshipman and ended as an engineer and ensign,

There are quite a few conflicting dates regarding Rumpf's biography - I'm not sure if it is feasible or necessary to dig into this? It seems that he left for the Moluccas in 1954 at the latest (the recent account by Baas & Veldkamp 2013 stating him leaving Batavia "after some weeks" only!). Despite him (possibly early on and definitely later on) staying connected to Bataviaasch VOC circles, it seems fair to state (judging from the corpus of his notes) that Java was not his major playground and we may have to accept it being more likely for him to include some erroneous info, too.

Quote:

i am not convinced that he began his ethnographic studies until he left the service to continue as a civilian employee of the VOC.

There are also ample natural history notes from his earlier "stay" in Portugal. He had a high-level education and obviously was one of those homo universalis (Universalgelehrte, i. e. scientists interested in just about everything) of days past. Thus, it seems very reasonable to assume that he was always collecting data...

Quote:

He didn't begin his serious studies of the flora and fauna of Ambon until 1662, 5 years after his arrival there. The book linked above wasn't published until 1705, 3 years after his death.

It's a wonder that (most of) the manuscript got compiled as well as survived at all: author becoming blind, earthquake & tsunami, ship sunk in transit, VOC declaring it a trade secret...

BTW, I'm fairly sure that he started observing and collecting right after his arrival - arguably, it will be difficult to ascertain how much time he could spend while serving for the military arm of the VOC (which he left in 1657 and settled down as a VOC merchant).

Quote:

His masterwork, Herbarium Amboinense, wasn't published until 39 years after his death in 1741. What a shame not to have seen all his efforts come to fruition in his lifetime.

It was not unusual in those times to have the magnum opus published posthumously, especially with many visiting the tropics passing away within a few years. FWIW, he already got recognised as one if not the leading authority on tropical plants during his life time; I guess this helped to face the many adverse events during his life.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 28th December 2015, 09:35 PM

MAURICE, I do understand that you have indicated your desire to leave this discussion, but you have asked me specific questions, and I would be quite ill-mannered were I to ignore your questions.

Thus:-
Do you have such old information written about gold, that this had been preferred over suassa considering its talismanic aspects?

No.

Or is it for collectors assumably because more gold is found instead of suassa?

I do not understand the question

I really do have some considerable difficulty in understanding just exactly what is being thrown back and forth here.

It seems that the point being examined is whether or not some people, at some time, in some place preferred suasa to gold because of some supposed talismanic qualities possessed by suasa.

We have no definite, supported evidence to confirm that this is so, merely the comment of a European visitor to the Dutch East Indies, 300 odd years ago. Yes, the man who made the comment was a trained observer, yes, he had a reputation as an ethnographer as well as a considerable reputation as a naturalist, but the fact remains that his comment on suasa appears to be just a passing comment.

I do not believe that anybody who has been party to this current discussion has challenged the possibility that suasa may have been preferred by some people at some time, and that possibly the preference may have been based upon some reputed talismanic qualities rather than the desire to keep one's head, or for one to appear more wealthy than was truly the case.

Let us never forget that at some places and during some times, in the region concerned, the wearing of gold on keris, and for other purposes, was very strictly confined to certain people.

So is there any element of dispute or disagreement in this discussion?

Perhaps David is a little sceptical of this suasa talismanic thing being a wide ranging belief; perhaps I am a little sceptical of the comments being anything other than common gossip, but our scepticism is not at all important, simply because the possibility of talismanic properties being associated with suasa is virtually a foregone conclusion, bearing in mind the cultural and societal beliefs and practices of the peoples concerned.

The comments of G.E. Rumphius are entirely in concert with the social and cultural elements of the time and place. These comments are neither remarkable, nor are they important, they are simply one more smidgen of information of this type to add to our already bulging basket that is overflowing with comments, remarks and rumours concerning the possible and probable beliefs of peoples with a magical world view.

However, in spite of what I have written above, I do have a couple of further matters that I would like to address:-

MAURICE:-

Rumphius mentions the word "Susuhunan" (Sussuhunam), and "Javanese", thus he is quite clear that he is referring to a specific societal group. The Javanese people lived, and live, in "The Land of Jawa", this is not the same as "The Island of Jawa". So, although Batavia was located on The Island of Jawa, it most definitely was not located in The Land of Jawa.

It is my firm belief that G.E.Rumphius did not ever venture far outside Batavia, or the lands under VOC control.

In the 1600's, and even much later, it would have been quite unwise for a European to have done so. Although the Dutch had the The Wheel, and similar ingenious methods of justice, the indigenous peoples of The Island of Jawa were not far behind the Dutch in their application of physical pain to whatever Europeans they could capture. Old reports tell of saplings being bent and the ankles of unfortunate Europeans being attached to these saplings, as the saplings slowly straightened, the Europeans were slowly separated into two bundles of bleeding, quivering flesh and entrails. No, G. E. Rumphius would not have gone wandering off into Mataram seeking information, he would have remained within the territories under Dutch control.

Thus, his references to the Javanese and the Susuhunan would have been garnered at some remove from the actual place concerned.

But here we have a problem.

The word "Susuhunan" is a Javanese word, it is the word that is used to refer to the Ruler of Surakarta, as far as I can ascertain, this word does not exist in Old Javanese, so it would appear to be unlikely that this word was used in reference to any ruler prior to the establishment of the Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat. The Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat was established in 1745 (or 1742) by Pakubuwana II. However, supposedly this word "Susuhunan" appears in text that was written some time prior to 1700.

To my mind there are just too many questions associated with this supposedly original comment made by G.E. Rumphius. Bearing in mind that the publication of his works, some time after his death, needed to be a commercial success, I really do think that examination of his original text would be needed to confirm some of the comments attributed to him, comments that would be of interest to a general readership.

KAI:-
You mention:-

" However, I'm with Maurice that Rumphius' account certainly needs to be taken into account since it is one of the few very early *and* extensive sources and actually quite similar to the important Chinese reports."

Would you be so kind as to provide the references for these Chinese reports?

Thank you.

David · 29th December 2015, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The word "Susuhunan" is a Javanese word, it is the word that is used to refer to the Ruler of Surakarta, as far as I can ascertain, this word does not exist in Old Javanese, so it would appear to be unlikely that this word was used in reference to any ruler prior to the establishment of the Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat. The Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat was established in 1745 (or 1742) by Pakubuwana II. However, supposedly this word "Susuhunan" appears in text that was written some time prior to 1700.

To my mind there are just too many questions associated with this supposedly original comment made by G.E. Rumphius. Bearing in mind that the publication of his works, some time after his death, needed to be a commercial success, I really do think that examination of his original text would be needed to confirm some of the comments attributed to him, comments that would be of interest to a general readership.

Alan, if you noticed my post #36 you will see that i have placed a link to this published text in the original Old Dutch. Tricky to translate, but certainly doable i suppose. If you go to this text you will see that it is a searchable database. However, searches for "Susuhunan", "Sussuhunam" and "Sussuhunan" produce no hits whatsoever. I realize that Maurice is busy and my not return to this discussion anytime soon, but i am curious where the English translation he provided came from that uses the word "Sussuhunam" and what word was actual used in the original text in it's place.

Btw, just to clarify, i am not in the least skeptical that suasa as a talismanic metal could be wide ranging. My skepticism lay in the claim that it would ever be preferred over purer gold materials.

A. G. Maisey · 29th December 2015, 03:03 AM

Sorry for my misunderstanding of your scepticism David, however even if it was directed at the preference question, I believe we could possibly allow that in some places amongst some people, suasa might have been preferred to gold for specific purposes.

However we look at this matter, it seems to me that we're all pretty much on the same page.

I did not look at the Old Dutch text, I cannot make any sense of Modern Dutch, so I would have even less hope of making sense of Old Dutch.

Link in post 36

I've had a look at your link David.

See page 204, last para above the line and "V HOOFTDEEL"

It is spelt as "SUSSUHUNAM" with the double"S" looking like "FF"

So the published copy does have this word in place

kai · 29th December 2015, 10:14 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

Would you be so kind as to provide the references for these Chinese reports?

E. g. Ma Huan (earlier than Rumpf's account though); those Chinese annals seem to have a quite similar perspective than the VOC and other early European accounts; certainly, all have to be taken with a lump of salt.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th December 2015, 10:22 AM

Hello David,

Quote:

If you go to this text you will see that it is a searchable database

This is a general feature (for digital texts) which does not work with photographed sources as in this case.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 29th December 2015, 10:30 AM

I thought I was pretty familiar with the Ying Yai Sheng Lan, Kai, seems like I need to go back and do another read of it --- something I've been doing for about 50 years now --- I cannot recall anything in these reports that refers to suasa. Can you save me some time by directing me to the relevant passages?

Thanks.

kai · 29th December 2015, 10:52 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

The word "Susuhunan" is a Javanese word, it is the word that is used to refer to the Ruler of Surakarta, as far as I can ascertain, this word does not exist in Old Javanese, so it would appear to be unlikely that this word was used in reference to any ruler prior to the establishment of the Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat. The Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat was established in 1745 (or 1742) by Pakubuwana II. However, supposedly this word "Susuhunan" appears in text that was written some time prior to 1700.

Rumpf's text mentions susuhunan several times; in the middle of page 206 he specifically mentions "Sussuhunam Amancurat" when reporting on a military episode in April 25th, 1680. [This fits well with the Dutch helping to reinstall Sunan Amangkurat II during this period and also his adversary "rebel troenajaja" aka Raden Trunajaya is mentioned.]

While it is possible that one of the editors of Rumpf's work did sneak in the title susuhunan before its publishing in 1705, I believe this to be pretty unlikely. Are there really no other sources on the use of this title during late Mataram reigns?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th December 2015, 11:00 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I thought I was pretty familiar with the Ying Yai Sheng Lan, Kai, seems like I need to go back and do another read of it --- something I've been doing for about 50 years now --- I cannot recall anything in these reports that refers to suasa. Can you save me some time by directing me to the relevant passages

I was not referring to suasa being specifically discussed in any anals that I remember. I was just trying to get across that the Chinese anals and Rumpf's work are important early sources that deserve to be taken seriously (or rather properly researched) even if some details are obviously off (based on second-hand info or misunderstanding).

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th December 2015, 01:03 PM

Without wanting to get sidetracked too much: AFAIK, the later rulers of Mataram (and Surakarta) are quite universely referred to as "Sunan" which is just a short version of "Susuhunan" - any reasons why this should not be a contemporary usage?

Regards,
Kai

Quote:

Hello Alan,

Rumpf's text mentions susuhunan several times; in the middle of page 206 he specifically mentions "Sussuhunam Amancurat" when reporting on a military episode in April 25th, 1680. [This fits well with the Dutch helping to reinstall Sunan Amangkurat II during this period and also his adversary "rebel troenajaja" aka Raden Trunajaya is mentioned.]

While it is possible that one of the editors of Rumpf's work did sneak in the title susuhunan before its publishing in 1705, I believe this to be pretty unlikely. Are there really no other sources on the use of this title during late Mataram reigns?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 29th December 2015, 10:04 PM

Thank you very much for your clarification Kai.

None of this can be regarded as "sidetrack". When we look at early reports it is the language used in those reports that gives an indication as to their authenticity and reliability.

Sometimes later editions of a report will include words that were not in common usage at the time the original report was written; sometimes a European will use a word that although it would have existed at the time of the report, was not in use in the area covered by the report, or was not used in the way in which the European used it.

These are the clues that permit verification.

Incidentally, this method of verification is not exclusive to early reports dealing with old S.E.Asia, it is a method that is applied to the analysis of reports from anywhere and any time, and is a tool that I have used in my profession for many years.

To understand how reliable any report may be it is essential that the language in that report must be analysed. It can never be taken at face value.

Yes, I agree that the work of G.E. Rumphius must be given some weight. I further agree that in this respect his reports are similar to those of the Ying Yai Sheng Lan. My apologies for my misunderstanding of your original comment.

The truly interesting response you have provided is the information that the Dutch were referring to Amangkurat as "susuhunan".

This is so interesting that it forced me back to some reference books to refresh my memory, which would seem to be at fault.

What I found was this:-

the Javanese word "susuhunan" appears to have first been used in a royal title by the second ruler of the second kingdom of Mataram, Raden Mas Jolang --- Sri Susuhunan Adi Prabu Hanyakrawati Senapati-ing-Ngalaga Mataram --- the son of Panembahan Senopati, the first ruler of Mataram. This would have been very early in the 17th century.

The appearance of the word in royal titles after this is very inconsistent and in fact gives the impression that the titles varied according to who wrote the book or report.

Susuhunan does not appear to be known by Zoetmulder, so it can probably be taken not to have existed in Old Javanese. The rulers of Mataram are acknowledged as one of the prime moving forces in the emergence of Modern Javanese, so it is likely that the second ruler of Mataram originated the word, or at least, one of his court poets did, at his command.

Pakubuwana II was the last ruler of Kartasura and the first ruler of Surakarta. It seems that he began to use the word "susuhunan" as a part of his title after the shift to Surakarta.

"Susuhunan" has continued in use as a part of the title of the rulers of Surakarta.

The word "sinuhun" is sometimes taken as a synonym, or a derivative of "susuhunan" This is erroneous. "Sinuhun" must be understood as "lord", and is a part of the royal title of the rulers of Surakarta, it is used colloquially to refer to these rulers.

"State and Statecraft in Old Java" --- Soemarsaid Moertono is an accepted reference for politics in Mataram. Moertono claims that "susuhunan" is a Javanese word that is the result of changing a root word, "sunan", by interpolation of the infixes to create a word inferring religious authority, thus "sunan" is the original short form, "susuhunan" is the later Javanese form. However, he then goes on to claim that "sunan" has the word "suwun" as its root, which he gives as "to bow one's head". Regrettably Moertono's interpretations are at odds with current lexicographers. This tends to cast doubt on his opinions in this matter, in spite of the fact that he is Javanese.

However, De Graaf accepts the title as having religious implications, and this opinion must be taken seriously.

The word "sunan" was used by the walis as a part of their title, the walis were the apostles of Islam in Jawa, by inclusion of this word in a royal title it inferred that the ruler was also a religious leader. However, lexicographers do not accept "sunan" as a short form, or abbreviation of "susuhunan" , they regard "sunan" as having an Islamic association, and "susuhunan" as having a Javanese association, in fact, two separate words.

If we accept Moertono the developmental progression could be :-

suwun > sunan > susuhunan

even though I'm not certain we can accept this, it certainly does look like a nice neat solution to the matter.

Which brings us back to the use of "susuhunan" in the Rumphius publication.

It would appear that Europeans at that time were in the habit of referring to the rulers of Mataram as the "susuhunan", whether or not that word formed a part of the official title. If this is indeed the case, the appearance of "susuhunan" in Rumphius' work is not surprising.

David · 30th December 2015, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

This is a general feature (for digital texts) which does not work with photographed sources as in this case.

Sorry Kai, but you are incorrect on that one. Try putting in a word you know is there such as "Suaffa" or "Batavia". The search engine works just fine and the one on the bottom will give you indictor marks of all the places in the text where the word appears. Hover over the indicator and the passage will appear in a pop-up or click on the indicator and it will bring you directly to the page.
What this tells me is the the words "Sussuhunam" or "Susuhunan" are not in this text.
However, what i failed to do was to use "ff" instead of "ss" when searching the text. So one must search for "Suffuhunam" instead.

The only references point for this word in the text appear to be three, on pages 204, 205 and 206.

Shakethetrees · 30th December 2015, 06:23 AM

Is there any authoritative information available giving the composition of suassa?

I suspect it is a somewhat variable mix that was determined by availability, local tradition, or even the smith's personal composition.

There seems to be a good deal of color variation.

Alloys have always fascinated me, especially the ones that go against the Western tradition of maintaining a certain gold or silver standard.

What comes to mind are the many Japanese alloys developed for sword mount furniture, where minuscule amounts of precious metals were mixed with copper and other metals and treated with various chemicals achieving colors unavailable to traditional western metalwork.

This is something that should be studied.

27th December 2015, 10:55 PM	#37
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,341	Thank you all for participating, but I'm afraid that I also am too busy, and therefore no time to discuss it deeply furthermore. But I think it was good discussing this Rumphius suassa text, and maybe in future if somebody finds out more about this, could add it in this thread. Or maybe friendcollectors here in the forum have some kerisses with suassa to show us here in this thread? I just want to say that Rumphius arrived in Batavia in 1653, and as far as I can make out of the story, he left there in 1657, so he spent several years on Java. Also when you look at his work (David posted the link), I can't say this is work for an amateur. I'm afraid that if you would like to translate, it would not work out as the text is in old style Dutch. And even I, as a Dutchman, am not reading it easily. Alan, David and Kai thank you for participating, and Loedjoe thank you for alerting us about Rumphius and his suassa findings. And whatever is the truth, maybe we will find something more lateron to add here. Anyway it was a remarkable text what Rumphius is writing, and I still have the feeling it will not be unfounded. : ) Best wishes, Maurice Attached Images

28th December 2015, 12:35 AM	#38
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	No worries Maurice, but of course, no reason for the discussion to end. I should hope these discussions never depend on the back and forth of just a couple individuals and the thread will, of course, always be here for you to return to. While Rumphius was indeed in Batavia for for 4 years from 1653-7, where he began as a midshipman and ended as an engineer and ensign, i am not convinced that he began his ethnographic studies until he left the service to continue as a civilian employee of the VOC. He didn't begin his serious studies of the flora and fauna of Ambon until 1662, 5 years after his arrival there. The book linked above wasn't published until 1705, 3 years after his death. His masterwork, Herbarium Amboinense, wasn't published until 39 years after his death in 1741. What a shame not to have seen all his efforts come to fruition in his lifetime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Eberhard_Rumphius Not really pertinent to this discussion, but just because i find it odd, i wonder why the version of his portrait that you posted (also included on the Wiki page) is identical to the one included in D'Amboinsche Rariteitkamer except that it is missing the animal hanging on the wall. Attached Images

29th December 2015, 03:03 AM	#42
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Sorry for my misunderstanding of your scepticism David, however even if it was directed at the preference question, I believe we could possibly allow that in some places amongst some people, suasa might have been preferred to gold for specific purposes. However we look at this matter, it seems to me that we're all pretty much on the same page. I did not look at the Old Dutch text, I cannot make any sense of Modern Dutch, so I would have even less hope of making sense of Old Dutch. Link in post 36 I've had a look at your link David. See page 204, last para above the line and "V HOOFTDEEL" It is spelt as "SUSSUHUNAM" with the double"S" looking like "FF" So the published copy does have this word in place Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 29th December 2015 at 06:47 AM. Reason: additional info

27th December 2015, 06:11 PM	#34
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Maurice, at the moment I do not have time to respond in depth to your post # 31, however, as you say G.E. Rumphius worked in Ambon, but he refers to the "Susuhunan" and to Jawa. In the 1600's Ambon and Mataram (Central Jawa) were about as connected as Palermo and Port Moresby are today, in fact not as well connected as Palermo and Port Moresby today. G.E.Rumphius was freed from his duties with the VOC to permit him to concentrate on his work as a naturalist. He was an amateur ethnographer, but his primary focus was the study of the natural history of Ambon. It is entirely possible that he heard of the talismanic properties attributed to suasa in Mataram from some Ambonese traveller, or perhaps in Batavia, but his CV does not list duty in Mataram, and in the 1600's Mataram was pretty unsettled territory, delegations to the rulers in Mataram were very probably few and far between, if they existed at all. In order to understand the veracity of G.E.Rumphius' comments on suasa, we need to try to place them into context. One way in which to begin this effort would be to look closely at his CV. There is a lot of info online concerning G.E.Rumphius.

27th December 2015, 09:36 PM	#36
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,119	For those who would like to access this source, this entire volume of Rumphius is available on line. Really wishing i knew Dutch at this point because using google translator line by line is an extremely arduous task to say the least when you cannot copy & paste the material, but those with a handle on the language might like to find these quotes in context. https://archive.org/stream/DAmboinsc...e/202/mode/2up

28th December 2015, 09:35 PM	#40
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	MAURICE, I do understand that you have indicated your desire to leave this discussion, but you have asked me specific questions, and I would be quite ill-mannered were I to ignore your questions. Thus:- Do you have such old information written about gold, that this had been preferred over suassa considering its talismanic aspects? No. Or is it for collectors assumably because more gold is found instead of suassa? I do not understand the question I really do have some considerable difficulty in understanding just exactly what is being thrown back and forth here. It seems that the point being examined is whether or not some people, at some time, in some place preferred suasa to gold because of some supposed talismanic qualities possessed by suasa. We have no definite, supported evidence to confirm that this is so, merely the comment of a European visitor to the Dutch East Indies, 300 odd years ago. Yes, the man who made the comment was a trained observer, yes, he had a reputation as an ethnographer as well as a considerable reputation as a naturalist, but the fact remains that his comment on suasa appears to be just a passing comment. I do not believe that anybody who has been party to this current discussion has challenged the possibility that suasa may have been preferred by some people at some time, and that possibly the preference may have been based upon some reputed talismanic qualities rather than the desire to keep one's head, or for one to appear more wealthy than was truly the case. Let us never forget that at some places and during some times, in the region concerned, the wearing of gold on keris, and for other purposes, was very strictly confined to certain people. So is there any element of dispute or disagreement in this discussion? Perhaps David is a little sceptical of this suasa talismanic thing being a wide ranging belief; perhaps I am a little sceptical of the comments being anything other than common gossip, but our scepticism is not at all important, simply because the possibility of talismanic properties being associated with suasa is virtually a foregone conclusion, bearing in mind the cultural and societal beliefs and practices of the peoples concerned. The comments of G.E. Rumphius are entirely in concert with the social and cultural elements of the time and place. These comments are neither remarkable, nor are they important, they are simply one more smidgen of information of this type to add to our already bulging basket that is overflowing with comments, remarks and rumours concerning the possible and probable beliefs of peoples with a magical world view. However, in spite of what I have written above, I do have a couple of further matters that I would like to address:- MAURICE:- Rumphius mentions the word "Susuhunan" (Sussuhunam), and "Javanese", thus he is quite clear that he is referring to a specific societal group. The Javanese people lived, and live, in "The Land of Jawa", this is not the same as "The Island of Jawa". So, although Batavia was located on The Island of Jawa, it most definitely was not located in The Land of Jawa. It is my firm belief that G.E.Rumphius did not ever venture far outside Batavia, or the lands under VOC control. In the 1600's, and even much later, it would have been quite unwise for a European to have done so. Although the Dutch had the The Wheel, and similar ingenious methods of justice, the indigenous peoples of The Island of Jawa were not far behind the Dutch in their application of physical pain to whatever Europeans they could capture. Old reports tell of saplings being bent and the ankles of unfortunate Europeans being attached to these saplings, as the saplings slowly straightened, the Europeans were slowly separated into two bundles of bleeding, quivering flesh and entrails. No, G. E. Rumphius would not have gone wandering off into Mataram seeking information, he would have remained within the territories under Dutch control. Thus, his references to the Javanese and the Susuhunan would have been garnered at some remove from the actual place concerned. But here we have a problem. The word "Susuhunan" is a Javanese word, it is the word that is used to refer to the Ruler of Surakarta, as far as I can ascertain, this word does not exist in Old Javanese, so it would appear to be unlikely that this word was used in reference to any ruler prior to the establishment of the Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat. The Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat was established in 1745 (or 1742) by Pakubuwana II. However, supposedly this word "Susuhunan" appears in text that was written some time prior to 1700. To my mind there are just too many questions associated with this supposedly original comment made by G.E. Rumphius. Bearing in mind that the publication of his works, some time after his death, needed to be a commercial success, I really do think that examination of his original text would be needed to confirm some of the comments attributed to him, comments that would be of interest to a general readership. KAI:- You mention:- " However, I'm with Maurice that Rumphius' account certainly needs to be taken into account since it is one of the few very early and extensive sources and actually quite similar to the important Chinese reports." Would you be so kind as to provide the references for these Chinese reports? Thank you.

29th December 2015, 10:30 AM	#45
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	I thought I was pretty familiar with the Ying Yai Sheng Lan, Kai, seems like I need to go back and do another read of it --- something I've been doing for about 50 years now --- I cannot recall anything in these reports that refers to suasa. Can you save me some time by directing me to the relevant passages? Thanks.

29th December 2015, 10:04 PM	#49
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Thank you very much for your clarification Kai. None of this can be regarded as "sidetrack". When we look at early reports it is the language used in those reports that gives an indication as to their authenticity and reliability. Sometimes later editions of a report will include words that were not in common usage at the time the original report was written; sometimes a European will use a word that although it would have existed at the time of the report, was not in use in the area covered by the report, or was not used in the way in which the European used it. These are the clues that permit verification. Incidentally, this method of verification is not exclusive to early reports dealing with old S.E.Asia, it is a method that is applied to the analysis of reports from anywhere and any time, and is a tool that I have used in my profession for many years. To understand how reliable any report may be it is essential that the language in that report must be analysed. It can never be taken at face value. Yes, I agree that the work of G.E. Rumphius must be given some weight. I further agree that in this respect his reports are similar to those of the Ying Yai Sheng Lan. My apologies for my misunderstanding of your original comment. The truly interesting response you have provided is the information that the Dutch were referring to Amangkurat as "susuhunan". This is so interesting that it forced me back to some reference books to refresh my memory, which would seem to be at fault. What I found was this:- the Javanese word "susuhunan" appears to have first been used in a royal title by the second ruler of the second kingdom of Mataram, Raden Mas Jolang --- Sri Susuhunan Adi Prabu Hanyakrawati Senapati-ing-Ngalaga Mataram --- the son of Panembahan Senopati, the first ruler of Mataram. This would have been very early in the 17th century. The appearance of the word in royal titles after this is very inconsistent and in fact gives the impression that the titles varied according to who wrote the book or report. Susuhunan does not appear to be known by Zoetmulder, so it can probably be taken not to have existed in Old Javanese. The rulers of Mataram are acknowledged as one of the prime moving forces in the emergence of Modern Javanese, so it is likely that the second ruler of Mataram originated the word, or at least, one of his court poets did, at his command. Pakubuwana II was the last ruler of Kartasura and the first ruler of Surakarta. It seems that he began to use the word "susuhunan" as a part of his title after the shift to Surakarta. "Susuhunan" has continued in use as a part of the title of the rulers of Surakarta. The word "sinuhun" is sometimes taken as a synonym, or a derivative of "susuhunan" This is erroneous. "Sinuhun" must be understood as "lord", and is a part of the royal title of the rulers of Surakarta, it is used colloquially to refer to these rulers. "State and Statecraft in Old Java" --- Soemarsaid Moertono is an accepted reference for politics in Mataram. Moertono claims that "susuhunan" is a Javanese word that is the result of changing a root word, "sunan", by interpolation of the infixes to create a word inferring religious authority, thus "sunan" is the original short form, "susuhunan" is the later Javanese form. However, he then goes on to claim that "sunan" has the word "suwun" as its root, which he gives as "to bow one's head". Regrettably Moertono's interpretations are at odds with current lexicographers. This tends to cast doubt on his opinions in this matter, in spite of the fact that he is Javanese. However, De Graaf accepts the title as having religious implications, and this opinion must be taken seriously. The word "sunan" was used by the walis as a part of their title, the walis were the apostles of Islam in Jawa, by inclusion of this word in a royal title it inferred that the ruler was also a religious leader. However, lexicographers do not accept "sunan" as a short form, or abbreviation of "susuhunan" , they regard "sunan" as having an Islamic association, and "susuhunan" as having a Javanese association, in fact, two separate words. If we accept Moertono the developmental progression could be :- suwun > sunan > susuhunan even though I'm not certain we can accept this, it certainly does look like a nice neat solution to the matter. Which brings us back to the use of "susuhunan" in the Rumphius publication. It would appear that Europeans at that time were in the habit of referring to the rulers of Mataram as the "susuhunan", whether or not that word formed a part of the official title. If this is indeed the case, the appearance of "susuhunan" in Rumphius' work is not surprising.

30th December 2015, 06:23 AM	#51
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Is there any authoritative information available giving the composition of suassa? I suspect it is a somewhat variable mix that was determined by availability, local tradition, or even the smith's personal composition. There seems to be a good deal of color variation. Alloys have always fascinated me, especially the ones that go against the Western tradition of maintaining a certain gold or silver standard. What comes to mind are the many Japanese alloys developed for sword mount furniture, where minuscule amounts of precious metals were mixed with copper and other metals and treated with various chemicals achieving colors unavailable to traditional western metalwork. This is something that should be studied.