keris bugis again

[La Pagaru]

This one after prosesing

[Green]

La pagaru

the peril of communication is second or thrid language!
At no time did i mention anything about the age of the keris!
My point is, I find the keris you posted good looking and I wonder why Mr Alan Maisey reserves his comment and I would like to learn what he thinks about the kerises!

(Bahaya kesilapan faham berkomunikasi dalam bahasa kedua atau ketiga!
Saya tidak pernah berkata tentang usia keris yang di tunjukkan!
Maksud saya, saya nampak keris2 yang di paparkan itu cantik, tetapi Alan Maisey tidak mahu komen, dan saya ingin tahu mengapa? supaya saya boleh pelajari daripada dia kerana dia seorang yang pakar tentang keris dan perkerisan.)

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

La pagaru

the peril of communication is second or thrid language!
At no time did i mention anything about the age of the keris!
My point is, I find the keris you posted good looking and I wonder why Mr Alan Maisey reserves his comment and I would like to learn what he thinks about the kerises!

(Bahaya kesilapan faham berkomunikasi dalam bahasa kedua atau ketiga!
Saya tidak pernah berkata tentang usia keris yang di tunjukkan!
Maksud saya, saya nampak keris2 yang di paparkan itu cantik, tetapi Alan Maisey tidak mahu komen, dan saya ingin tahu mengapa? supaya saya boleh pelajari daripada dia kerana dia seorang yang pakar tentang keris dan perkerisan.)

I don't wish to speak for Alan Maisey and i am sure he will come along at some point and speak to your concern here Green. However, Alan has made it clear countless times on this forum that both his expertise and interest lie in keris from Jawa, Bali and Madura. He is generally reluctant to comment on keris that are made outside of this area.

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

Sorry, I do not understand what you wrote . Can you rewrite in Bahasa Indonesia. I can read Bahasa Indonesia .

I do realize that language can be a problem with some and that communicating in languages other than our first one can be very difficult at times. I personally participate on forums where Indonesian languages dominate and find online translators very lacking. I must, however, reiterate that this is an English speaking forum. I have no problem with members posting in BOTH English AND Bahasa Indonesian if that is helpful, but i am afraid that i do have to insist that every post be in English as well. Thanks!

[Green]

Divid;

Alan has made plenty of comments in other posts on non jawa keris and other ethonagraphic weapons which I greatly benefit from!

And in this particular thread , if my understanding of english language is correct, his nuanced statement seem to indicate that he may have interesting opinion on these kerises (to put it nicely) and this is what pique my interest as my current interest happens to be bugis keris (which he amply knows)... and i want to learn something from him!

the beauty of this forum is that people are very open and free with their opinions (which i find very refreshing) unlike many other keris forums elsewhere.
I have learnt many things from honest comments from my posts and if at all i value criticism much more than praises as i learn more from criticisms than the later.

[kai]

Hello Andi,

Thanks for your efforts in posting keris Bugis on this forum and bearing with us and the language issues! (There are many participants whose primary language is not English. Thus, we know it can be tough, especially at the start - learning by doing can be also fun though...)

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Nik,

Please also keep in mind that standards of quality can change between regions. There are already differences between Bugis blades from southern Sulawesi and Bugis-influenced keris from the Malay peninsula. Traditional Jawa tastes are very different.

Let me explain why I am, personally, not so fond of the keris blade shown in post #17:
Disclaimer. This is a keris with miring pamor which is much, much more difficult to forge than most other pamor (and much more costly since more material is lost in the process). Thus, we're speaking of high level skill not needed for more common keris!

1. The kurissi pamor is not well controlled: If you follow the twistcore from the base (very broad, distorted) to the tip (distorted in another way), there is no real consistency, no real motif exhibited in the final result (for both lines of twistcore).
2. There is a massive cold shut between the two rows of twistcore (from the base pretty much into the distal third of the blade); apparently the pande was working at his limits here.
3. Just as disconcerting is that this (non-)joint is not following the middle of the blade (ada ada) and the luk (also seen on the other side of the blade).
4. IMHO the garap of the blade and flow of lines don't look refined. Compare with the other blade shown in the last pic of post #16: The blade on the left looks fair while the last luk of this keris seems to almost fall off...
5. I'm also not a fan of the greneng at the base of the blade and, especially, the pejetan... (Maybe the gonjo got replaced or the greneng restored but still there seems to be finesse missing here.)


Please do correct me if I'm wrong with any of the raised concerns! Andi and Yasir, I apologize for being frank - just trying to help you, Nik...


I am interested in the extensive cold shut - I've never seen this with antique Bugis blades from western collections. Continued TLC and "washing" in tropical climates may play a role here. However, a cold shut can also be detected without heavy corrosion/etching. I've seen quite a lot of karmadikan blades with similar forging flaws which got turned into features by the sellers. Any insights into how this connects with traditional Bugis culture despite the rarity of old blades with these "features" would be very much appreciated!

Regards,
Kai

[La Pagaru]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Nik,

Please also keep in mind that standards of quality can change between regions. There are already differences between Bugis blades from southern Sulawesi and Bugis-influenced keris from the Malay peninsula. Traditional Jawa tastes are very different.

Let me explain why I am, personally, not so fond of the keris blade shown in post #17:
Disclaimer. This is a keris with miring pamor which is much, much more difficult to forge than most other pamor (and much more costly since more material is lost in the process). Thus, we're speaking of high level skill not needed for more common keris!

1. The kurissi pamor is not well controlled: If you follow the twistcore from the base (very broad, distorted) to the tip (distorted in another way), there is no real consistency, no real motif exhibited in the final result (for both lines of twistcore).
2. There is a massive cold shut between the two rows of twistcore (from the base pretty much into the distal third of the blade); apparently the pande was working at his limits here.
3. Just as disconcerting is that this (non-)joint is not following the middle of the blade (ada ada) and the luk (also seen on the other side of the blade).
4. IMHO the garap of the blade and flow of lines don't look refined. Compare with the other blade shown in the last pic of post #16: The blade on the left looks fair while the last luk of this keris seems to almost fall off...
5. I'm also not a fan of the greneng at the base of the blade and, especially, the pejetan... (Maybe the gonjo got replaced or the greneng restored but still there seems to be finesse missing here.)


Please do correct me if I'm wrong with any of the raised concerns! Andi and Yasir, I apologize for being frank - just trying to help you, Nik...


I am interested in the extensive cold shut - I've never seen this with antique Bugis blades from western collections. Continued TLC and "washing" in tropical climates may play a role here. However, a cold shut can also be detected without heavy corrosion/etching. I've seen quite a lot of karmadikan blades with similar forging flaws which got turned into features by the sellers. Any insights into how this connects with traditional Bugis culture despite the rarity of old blades with these "features" would be very much appreciated!

Regards,
Kai

Dear Kai
thanks kai, I hope there will be future international exhibitions and if we could, we can to involve our collection so we can compare it with the existing !! I was the original Bugis. and I hope alan can participate in this forum! in Bugis we have various kinds of keris in various forms but the whole rancang bangun Bugis, Bugis was divided on a wide range of areas that have certain physical characteristics! keris Bugis very different from the keris in Java! but some keris keris Bugis influence in certain areas such as the local Malay, Sumatra, bima and others. This is due to the role of ancient Bugis migrants who wander very far from home, namely South Sulawesi! the quality of our iron very famous until now, we did not have a record of the main problems we call the masters or panre. but we have a record of good or bad about a heirloom in our lives! once again I hope alan can join and participate in this forum ! And
Regards LP

[La Pagaru]

Dear all

This time I post a keris without camera effects, hopefully be discussed together ,. keris Bugis sepokal

[La Pagaru]

Dear all
slightly deviated from the discussion, we Bugis have expertise in making this the dagger with beautiful and hard PAMOR, my upload so you can to see a different

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank all concerned for your repeated invitations to join this discussion, however, the posts that have already been made, and especially the photographs of keris, make it very clear to me that I lack the current knowledge necessary to participate usefully.

Edit:- Reference to:-

Pamor dan Landasan Spiritual
Senjata Pusaka
Bugis
Ahmad Ibbe, Andi Irwan Zulfikar, Dray Vibranto Senewe
ISBN 978-979-22-7729-6

may assist in clarification

[kai]

Hello Andi,

Nice fittings of the keris shown in #39!

With what metal have the gaps in this blade been closed?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

P.S.: It would be really great, if you were to provide a translation of the manuscript you posted, Andi - I'm sure Donny will be glad to help. Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Andi,

Nice fittings of the keris shown in #39!

With what metal have the gaps in this blade been closed?

Regards,
Kai

The blade looks like it has cold shuts on both sides almost the entire length.

[La Pagaru]

u can contac me on my email in ariesrappang01@gmail.com mybe i can answer any questions. in here i cant speak because i can not speak englis


regrads
Lp

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by kai

P.S.: It would be really great, if you were to provide a translation of the manuscript you posted, Andi - I'm sure Donny will be glad to help. Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Kai

the problem is the manuscript was written using language I don't understand

[kai]

Hello Donny,

Sure, we first need Andi to translate it into BI; then we can try BI into English...

Regards,
Kai

[La Pagaru]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Donny,

Sure, we first need Andi to translate it into BI; then we can try BI into English...

Regards,
Kai

dear kai and dony,
ok, i am try to translete the manuskrip for u all, but just this one,

regrad LP

[kai]

Great - thanks, Andi!

Take your time though.

Best wishes,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

I am interested in the extensive cold shut - I've never seen this with antique Bugis blades from western collections.

Hello Kai,

here you go: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=keris

Regards,
Detlef