The Habaabi Khanjar/Jambia; FromThe Asir.

[cpkaway2]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=3]Thank you Ibrahiim for confirming the origin of my khanjar.

Today I managed to find this thread with a photo of a khanjar almost the same as mine, including the Saudi coat of arms:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=360 (message #1 - from Conogre).

Is the hilt of my khanjar made of bone, wood, or ??. Is any of the writing on the chape is decipherable?

Thank you again
Chris

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by cpkaway2

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=3]Thank you Ibrahiim for confirming the origin of my khanjar.

Today I managed to find this thread with a photo of a khanjar almost the same as mine, including the Saudi coat of arms:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=360 (message #1 - from Conogre).

Is the hilt of my khanjar made of bone, wood, or ??. Is any of the writing on the chape is decipherable?

Thank you again
Chris

Salaams cpkaway2 In all likelihood the material is Rhino...commonly used for dagger hilts there. The mark probably gives the makers name. Not decipherable.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams and as a way of updating this conundrum...I have a few pictures of various examples from Saudia which I have downloaded via Pinterest. The relevant maps are repeated here with the Omani map showing the Waliat of al Wustah in red which suggest a tie up between the two regions by sea. The Seaports Of Jazan and Sur are of paramount importance in this regard... but more important is the entire subject of Saiid The Great of Zanzibar..without which we wouldn't be having this discussion!

Occasionally give away clues exist like the thick leather belt on Saudia examples or inscriptions on the Saudia weapon of the maker (In this case Ali al Mursi) and of the typical bunch of flowers and even on some at the thread earlier the emblem of Saudia Arabia crossed swords and palm trees in later editions. Some association with the local flower tribe is suggested since they wear the dagger but that is compelling but not proven.

It appears to my eye that the crown is more bulbous in the Saudia version, The T hilt shape more pronounced and the body of the scabbard thinner in appearance...

Omani silver.com attach some importance suggesting this being an Omani weapon thus the entire situation is very firmly on the table ... I suggest it is both... being originally al Wustah and transported perhaps with a silversmith from Omans Al Wustah region who may have settled in the Asir as Omanis moved to Zanzibar and its environs en masse in the 19th C ..The two weapons are virtually identical.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams and as a way of updating this conundrum...I have a few pictures of various examples from Saudia which I have downloaded via Pinterest. The relevant maps are repeated here with the Omani map showing the Waliat of al Wustah in red which suggest a tie up between the two regions by sea. The Seaports Of Jazan and Sur are of paramount importance in this regard... but more important is the entire subject of Saiid The Great of Zanzibar..without which we wouldn't be having this discussion!

Occasionally give away clues exist like the thick leather belt on Saudia examples or inscriptions on the Saudia weapon of the maker (In this case Ali al Mursi) and of the typical bunch of flowers and even on some at the thread earlier the emblem of Saudia Arabia crossed swords and palm trees in later editions. Some association with the local flower tribe is suggested since they wear the dagger but that is compelling but not proven.

It appears to my eye that the crown is more bulbous in the Saudia version, The T hilt shape more pronounced and the body of the scabbard thinner in appearance...

Omani silver.com attach some importance suggesting this being an Omani weapon thus the entire situation is very firmly on the table ... I suggest it is both... being originally al Wustah and transported perhaps with a silversmith from Omans Al Wustah region who may have settled in the Asir as Omanis moved to Zanzibar and its environs en masse in the 19th C ..The two weapons are virtually identical.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

The inscription does not say Ali alMursi, but says Amal Ahmed bin Mousa, a famous Hasa craftsmanship whose family continued to work on arms including swords. :-)

Could you perhaps have who ever reads those Arabic inscriptions to try again?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The inscription does not say Ali alMursi, but says Amal Ahmed bin Mousa, a famous Hasa craftsmanship whose family continued to work on arms including swords. :-)

Could you perhaps have who ever reads those Arabic inscriptions to try again?

Correction or ...

I couldn't read it ( I can hardly even see it !!) so I used a certain degree of logic and went to detail on the web on al Hasa Oasis and the master smiths I could find.

The closest I could get indicated words used to describe another Jambia weapon Quote"The script to the rear reads "Amal Ahmed bin Mursi" work of Ahmed bin Mursi''.Unquote. Could it be that your translation is cockeyed insofar as the last few letters ...? Not that it makes much difference since it is not the name that is inspiring definition but the question as to where and what was the link between Oman, Asir and Al Ahsa /al Hasa ...?

My suggestion is that they were all linked through slavery and trade. To the south the ports of Sur in the Wusta region was linked to Zanzibar via Jazan in the Asir and by sea also to Bahrain and all stations north thus capable of feeding goods to Al Hasa Oasis and of course by trade and slave camel caravan to Al Hasa via Buraimi Oasis.

My hypothesis suggests that the Muscat Khanjar could have feed into al Hasa whilst the al Wusta may have filtered down to the Asir from Sur or a combination of all of that. Artisans were flooding south with the migration to Zanzibar thus any of these arrangements could have transpired. What is not clear is how the two Saudia regions interacted since in the time frame and before 1923 the Asir was not in Saudia moreover even after that and for decades Asir was cloaked in secrecy ... but that can also be said of Al Hasa... reflecting the difficulty we now face today unraveling the puzzle.

Either way for now at least it matters little who signed the work but the more interesting story lies outside the box and demands a certain lateral thinking but I think we are almost in range of the answer.

Further note ... I went to a reputable specialist site and pulled the detail off there for research purposes;

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s1316_full.html for which I Quote "A very high quality Arab Jambiya dagger from Saudi Arabia.

This Jambiya measures 31cms tall in its sheath.
The body and sheath covered wholly to the front in exquisite filigree and applied silver decoration, the hilt of darkened timber that closely resembles Rhino horn which is applied with silver.

To the lower part of the sheath at the tip on the back there is an embossed panel of Arabic calligraphy, the front with floral motifs. The script to the rear reads "Amal Ahmed bin Mursi" work of Ahmed bin Mursi.
The blade is of good steel, deeply curved and with a thick strengthening ridge along the middle. Old glued repair to wood crack on the hilt is hardly noticed".Unquote.

That weapon is shown below... and is almost a carbon copy of The Al Wusta Khanjar of Oman.



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Treading water for a moment perhaps this is a good time to place some more pictures .. Please also see#1 where there are some pictures of the weapons being worn thus illustrating the ethnographic reality of the situation better... Here are some more and deliberately from perhaps both regions under inspection since to date there is no clear divide as to how to separate the two weapons/areas.

For details of The Asir see https://www.britannica.com/place/Asi...n-Saudi-Arabia

For details pf Al Hasa Oasis see https://www.britannica.com/place/Al-...n-Saudi-Arabia

[A.alnakkas]

Ok to get this right, you are actually debating that its Mursi and not Mousa? Obviously you cant tell the difference between و and ر . As mentioned Ahmed bin Mousa is not just a random name that is found on some jambiya. It is a name known to those who collect and wear this style of khanjar and to Arab swords. Almousa house a well known house of silverworkers. Ahmed being the older generation he used "bin Mousa" (son of Mousa)

You are debating and basing an argument on something you cannot even read. This is like reading a famous Persian inscription wrongly and claiming its Indian. At least try to learn the language or refer to dedicated people who are efficient in reading the script.

I don't know who translated this inscription to Gavin, I remember translating things for him before. But no Arab or anyone familiar with Arabic would confuse و with ر and the pictures are clear enough.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Correction or ...

I couldn't read it ( I can hardly even see it !!) so I used a certain degree of logic and went to detail on the web on al Hasa Oasis and the master smiths I could find.

The closest I could get indicated words used to describe another Jambia weapon Quote"The script to the rear reads "Amal Ahmed bin Mursi" work of Ahmed bin Mursi''.Unquote. Could it be that your translation is cockeyed insofar as the last few letters ...? Not that it makes much difference since it is not the name that is inspiring definition but the question as to where and what was the link between Oman, Asir and Al Ahsa /al Hasa ...?

My suggestion is that they were all linked through slavery and trade. To the south the ports of Sur in the Wusta region was linked to Zanzibar via Jazan in the Asir and by sea also to Bahrain and all stations north thus capable of feeding goods to Al Hasa Oasis and of course by trade and slave camel caravan to Al Hasa via Buraimi Oasis.

My hypothesis suggests that the Muscat Khanjar could have feed into al Hasa whilst the al Wusta may have filtered down to the Asir from Sur or a combination of all of that. Artisans were flooding south with the migration to Zanzibar thus any of these arrangements could have transpired. What is not clear is how the two Saudia regions interacted since in the time frame and before 1923 the Asir was not in Saudia moreover even after that and for decades Asir was cloaked in secrecy ... but that can also be said of Al Hasa... reflecting the difficulty we now face today unraveling the puzzle.

Either way for now at least it matters little who signed the work but the more interesting story lies outside the box and demands a certain lateral thinking but I think we are almost in range of the answer.

Further note ... I went to a reputable specialist site and pulled the detail off there for research purposes;

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s1316_full.html for which I Quote "A very high quality Arab Jambiya dagger from Saudi Arabia.

This Jambiya measures 31cms tall in its sheath.
The body and sheath covered wholly to the front in exquisite filigree and applied silver decoration, the hilt of darkened timber that closely resembles Rhino horn which is applied with silver.

To the lower part of the sheath at the tip on the back there is an embossed panel of Arabic calligraphy, the front with floral motifs. The script to the rear reads "Amal Ahmed bin Mursi" work of Ahmed bin Mursi.
The blade is of good steel, deeply curved and with a thick strengthening ridge along the middle. Old glued repair to wood crack on the hilt is hardly noticed".Unquote.

That weapon is shown below... and is almost a carbon copy of The Al Wusta Khanjar of Oman.



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Anyways, I challenged you before to pinpoint a dagger of this type to a single Omani craftsman that is known by Omanis. Instead all the names shown are known Saudi craftsmen. But still, I await just one and I am willing to ignore all the evidence against this being from alWusta.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Anyways, I challenged you before to pinpoint a dagger of this type to a single Omani craftsman that is known by Omanis. Instead all the names shown are known Saudi craftsmen. But still, I await just one and I am willing to ignore all the evidence against this being from alWusta.

Thank you for your replies ... You need to understand one special key factor in Omani work; Omani Silver smiths invariably never signed their work.It simply wasn't done... In the hundreds of such artisans only one is recorded as ever having placed his "Monika" on his work... That was The Master of Sulayf near Ibri. Sulayf being a tiny village now disused. He died in the early part of the 20thC.

This fact is recorded in Omani Silver the famous book/ pamphlet by Ruth Hawley. (see below)

In respect of your previous note and as I have already indicated the signatures are largely not relevant at this juncture though may well be in future as closer scrutiny is possible...and your work in analyzing those is not in question ... since it is not the signatures which are so important just now but the understanding of how there are three virtually identical weapons in three very different regions; One in Oman and two in Saudia of which one was previously in the Yemen before about 1923.

What is pivotal is the appearance of Saiid The Great and the massive migration South to Zanzibar and other peripheral areas including the Zanj and probably associated places in Yemen....like the Asir. I believe it is this migration which caused these weapons to be dislocated and so identical to the original form; The Al Wusta Khanjar.

The reason for similar al Hasa weapons may well be linked to ship borne trade via Bahrain etc as well as the great caravan traffic of slaves and other goods to Saudia in particular to the Al Hasa Oasis from Buraimi.

Somewhere down the line artisans in these centres seem to have copied in the style of Al Wusta Khanjar or the artisans migrated from Oman and it is this which I am focused upon...

[Richard G]

Apropos nothing in particular, it is interesting to see the three lads in the last photograph are sporting three completely different styles of jambiya\khunja and belt.
Best wishes
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Apropos nothing in particular, it is interesting to see the three lads in the last photograph are sporting three completely different styles of jambiya\khunja and belt.
Best wishes
Richard

Different tribe, different weapon. They are all called Jambia in that region which has a complex muddied history since in about 1923 it was annexed by Saudia and was previously in the Yemen. Take a walk in any souk in the region and you will see many different daggers.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.