Proposed Changes in Swap Forum Rules

[Maurice]

Hi all,

I have seen a lot of ideas which I think would be great and very usable.
For instance that dealermembers could have a dealer designation on their avatar so that other members would know to look in their profile for their websites, which David pointed out (probably an idea from Gavin, if I understood well).

Also the splitting of the swap forum that Fearn pointed I think could be another good idea....

By the way, I deal a little besides my collecting, and all the money will be pumped in my own collection or other good genuine antique pointy things which will be sold or swapped.....And believe me, it is not very profitable (IF it is profitable at all). It takes a lot of work to maintain a website and the only pieces I have for sale once in a while are always pieces I like myself and most of the time have been (the one longer as the other) in my own collection....
Indeed some pieces go with a bit of a profit, but most of the pieces went to friendcollectors with swapping, or even with a great loss of money.....
There are also pieces I had obtained after a whole day driving to friendcollectors, and what is a euro50,- than for profit?? (Only to fill the fuel of my car is euro 8o,- that day, let alone the time I spent in trafficjam, and afterwards taking images, placing information and finally wrap them up and put them to the postoffice again)
So believe me when I am saying that a website is very time resuming (taking images, uploading, place the information etc. etc.) and I know that nobody is pushing me to do so....and it is my own free will.
But I am doing it because I like to learn, study and collect pieces. Also besides that I like to get in contact with collectors who have the same passion I have. Therefore I have my website, and also ofcourse to show my own collection, inclusive all information I have found out on the pieces.

The "dealers" that are posting in this thread, have a great heart for ethnographic swords, and also are always very helpfull to help other members.
Even, in my case, every member here on the forum is welcome to visit me when in The Netherlands...........and not for having a piece sold, but just to meet, shake hands, and talk about our mutual hobby...and I am sure other "dealers" have the same heart as me.
Ofcourse there are dealers who are very rude and sell crap, only to gain a lot of money....But I am sure the members who are a member for quite a time, can pick them out very easily...

I like the forum, and when not posting anymore in the swapdepartment as a dealer, so be it..
I leave that to the moderators, who are doing a great job.
But as Lee mentioned in the beginning of the thread: "Constructive comments and observations on the swap forum, on how it exists presently and how it may be improved, may be made as replies to this thread or may be privately communicated to the moderator of your choice."

So all comments should be seen in this way, and not to complain about moderators. Also some statements shouldn't be taken so literally, but with a grain of salt...

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[Lew]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Lew and all,




So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

Sorry Fearn it is not a question of more work and this is a nonprofit forum none of the moderators are paid it is solely done on a volunteer basis and we do not sell space for advertising. So your point on needing new members to survive makes no sense. As far as newbies not being able to trade because they have small or no collections to offer for trade well that is one of the hurdles one must face when starting a hobby. How do you think we all started here? My dad did not leave me a collection I started with a kris and a barong and built up from there. Btw only about 1-5 percent of my collection was obtained through the swap on this forum all my other stuff was purchased via ebay,shows or through dealers websites.

[David]

Originally Posted by Lew

Sorry Fearn it is not a question of more work and this is a nonprofit forum none of the moderators are paid it is solely done on a volunteer basis and we do not sell space for advertising. So your point on needing new members to survive makes no sense.

Yeah, that comment baffled me as well. Maybe the Swap Forums need newbie collectors to survive, but the forums would remain strong places of discussion regardless of new membership. Not that new members are being discouraged. Fresh blood always has something new to offer. But long time members who like to trade with other members will always be able to do so and their collections will be constantly be growing from a myriad of other sources so there will always be new items to swap. No need to do any active recruiting. I don't think any of these "Senior Collectors" have built the bulk of their collection through our little swap forum. I have never bought or swapped a single thing in the Swap Forum, yet my collection keeps growing.
BTW, changes in the Swap are not being considered in order to drive the combination collector/dealer off the site. We have many collector/dealers here who are highly valuable, respected and active members.

[kahnjar1]

I see that there have now been many replies to this thread, which is encouraging.....BUT.....THERE IS STILL NO REPLY FROM ANY OF THE MODERATORS STATING WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERING THESE CHANGES. Is this change for change sake?..... or is there a REAL reason for the considerations?
If a subject like this is to be PROPERLY debated, then surely the reasons behind the issue need to be made public.
Stuart

[VANDOO]

RULES CAN STIFLE BUT ARE ALSO NECESSARY. THE MODERATORS HAVE OBVIOUSLY FOUND PROBLEMS THAT NEED TO BE REMIDIED. I WILL BE CONTENT TO LET THEM DO WHAT IS NECESSARY TO MAKE THE SWAP FORUMS RUN AS INTENDED.
THE USE OF THE WORD "MAY" SIMPLY IMPLYS THAT EVERY CASE WILL BE JUDGED ON ITS OWN MERIT. AS NO TWO CASES WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME THAT GIVES THEM SOME LATITUDE TO JUDGE FAIRLY. HOPEFULLY THIS LATITUDE WILL KEEP RULES FROM BEING TOO DRACONIAN AND ABSOLUTE.

MY DEFINITION OF DEALER FALL INTO CATEGORYS.

1. DEALER = ONE WHO IS ONLY INTERESTED IN THE MONEY HE CAN MAKE SELLING AN ITEM AND HAS NO PERSONEL INTREST IN OR DESIRE TO COLLECT AND ONLY WANTS INFORMATION ON THE ITEMS SO HE CAN KNOW WHAT THEY ARE WORTH. THEIR PRIMARY COLLECTION IS MONEY.

2. DEALER COLLECTOR = ONE WHO COLLECTS AND RESELLS ITEMS TO UP-GRADE HIS OWN COLLECTION OR TO GET THE MONEY TO BUY SOMETHING IN ANOTHER TYPE OR STYLE. THIS PRUNING OF ONES COLLECTION DOES LEAD TO MORE CASH FOR NEW PURCHASES AS WELL AS UPGRADES THE COLLECTION AND MAKES ITEMS AVAILABLE TO OTHER COLLECTIONS. OFTEN THE FOCUS OF A COLLECTION WILL GO IN ANOTHER DIRECTION, NECESATING A SELL OFF AND AGE OR FINANCES CAN ALSO LEAD TO SELLING OFF.

3. HARD CORE COLLECTOR = JUST COLLECTS AND NEVER SELLS UNLESS ITS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY OR PERHAPS TO FRIENDS.

AS TO HAVING A PRICE POSTED I DO LIKE TO SEE ONE SO I DON'T PESTER SOMEONE ASKING ABOUT SOMETHING I CAN'T AFFORD. NEWLY MADE ITEMS OFFERED AS ANTIQUE HAS NOT BEEN MUCH OF A PROBLEM ON THE ETHINOGRAPHIC SWAP SO FAR.

AS DISCUSSION OF ITEMS IS NO LONGER ALLOWED ON THE SWAP ALL OLD POSTS SHOULD BE DELETED AFTER AN APPROPRIATE AMOUNT OF TIME OR WHEN THE ITEMS ARE SOLD.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I see that there have now been many replies to this thread, which is encouraging.....BUT.....THERE IS STILL NO REPLY FROM ANY OF THE MODERATORS STATING WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERING THESE CHANGES. Is this change for change sake?..... or is there a REAL reason for the considerations?
If a subject like this is to be PROPERLY debated, then surely the reasons behind the issue need to be made public.
Stuart

And you will get no such response. The purpose of this thread was not to encourage a debate (proper or otherwise), but as a courtesy to the membership, and to solicit constructive feedback.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but we could simply have changed the rules with no notice whatsoever. And, yes, making life easier for our Staff is a significant concern. We're entitled to it.

Let's get back to the "constructive feedback", or I will simply close this thread.

Andrew

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

RULES CAN STIFLE BUT ARE ALSO NECESSARY. THE MODERATORS HAVE OBVIOUSLY FOUND PROBLEMS THAT NEED TO BE REMIDIED. I WILL BE CONTENT TO LET THEM DO WHAT IS NECESSARY TO MAKE THE SWAP FORUMS RUN AS INTENDED.
THE USE OF THE WORD "MAY" SIMPLY IMPLYS THAT EVERY CASE WILL BE JUDGED ON ITS OWN MERIT. AS NO TWO CASES WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME THAT GIVES THEM SOME LATITUDE TO JUDGE FAIRLY. HOPEFULLY THIS LATITUDE WILL KEEP RULES FROM BEING TOO DRACONIAN AND ABSOLUTE.

MY DEFINITION OF DEALER FALL INTO CATEGORYS.

1. DEALER = ONE WHO IS ONLY INTERESTED IN THE MONEY HE CAN MAKE SELLING AN ITEM AND HAS NO PERSONEL INTREST IN OR DESIRE TO COLLECT AND ONLY WANTS INFORMATION ON THE ITEMS SO HE CAN KNOW WHAT THEY ARE WORTH. THEIR PRIMARY COLLECTION IS MONEY.

2. DEALER COLLECTOR = ONE WHO COLLECTS AND RESELLS ITEMS TO UP-GRADE HIS OWN COLLECTION OR TO GET THE MONEY TO BUY SOMETHING IN ANOTHER TYPE OR STYLE. THIS PRUNING OF ONES COLLECTION DOES LEAD TO MORE CASH FOR NEW PURCHASES AS WELL AS UPGRADES THE COLLECTION AND MAKES ITEMS AVAILABLE TO OTHER COLLECTIONS. OFTEN THE FOCUS OF A COLLECTION WILL GO IN ANOTHER DIRECTION, NECESATING A SELL OFF AND AGE OR FINANCES CAN ALSO LEAD TO SELLING OFF.

3. HARD CORE COLLECTOR = JUST COLLECTS AND NEVER SELLS UNLESS ITS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY OR PERHAPS TO FRIENDS.

AS TO HAVING A PRICE POSTED I DO LIKE TO SEE ONE SO I DON'T PESTER SOMEONE ASKING ABOUT SOMETHING I CAN'T AFFORD. NEWLY MADE ITEMS OFFERED AS ANTIQUE HAS NOT BEEN MUCH OF A PROBLEM ON THE ETHINOGRAPHIC SWAP SO FAR.

AS DISCUSSION OF ITEMS IS NO LONGER ALLOWED ON THE SWAP ALL OLD POSTS SHOULD BE DELETED AFTER AN APPROPRIATE AMOUNT OF TIME OR WHEN THE ITEMS ARE SOLD.

Thanks for your input, Vandoo. I like the flexibility the "may" provides also.

Incidentally, folks, I think most of the staff agrees with the constructive points made about requiring an email address. We are discussing deleting that from the proposed rules.

[fearn]

Originally Posted by David

Firstly i take offense to your stance that this issue is all about creating less work for the moderators and your statement that the Keris Swap rules are fine for the moderators, but terrible for anybody else. You seem to have either not read or not understood what was behind the rules for the Keris Swap and you also seem to have lost sight of the fact that while a moderator i am also an avid collector who would love to be able to see collectors trade or sell off parts of their collection on the Keris Swap. What i didn't like were the constant games and attempts at rip-offs. I spend a great deal of my own freely given time here moderating discussion and sorting this stuff out, yet i guess you seem to feel that we mods owe you even more of our freely given time. Nice!

David,

No offense was intended, but I can't stop you from taking offense. Seriously.

If there's nothing wrong, then there's no reason to change the rules, right? And if you're spending a lot of your free time dealing with idiots like me, I think we can both agree that's a waste of your time.

You owe me nothing. However, I think your free time is valuable, if only to you, and that was the basis for my remark. You should not have to spend all your time policing this site. My assumption (perhaps a false one) was that one of the causes for the proposed rule change was that you were spending time moderating when you could better use it else.

Frank

[fearn]

Originally Posted by David

Yeah, that comment baffled me as well. Maybe the Swap Forums need newbie collectors to survive, but the forums would remain strong places of discussion regardless of new membership. Not that new members are being discouraged. Fresh blood always has something new to offer. But long time members who like to trade with other members will always be able to do so and their collections will be constantly be growing from a myriad of other sources so there will always be new items to swap. No need to do any active recruiting. I don't think any of these "Senior Collectors" have built the bulk of their collection through our little swap forum. I have never bought or swapped a single thing in the Swap Forum, yet my collection keeps growing.
BTW, changes in the Swap are not being considered in order to drive the combination collector/dealer off the site. We have many collector/dealers here who are highly valuable, respected and active members.

Explanation: If newbies feel like there's an inner circle they can't crack, then most of them don't stick around. I spend a lot of time with other interest groups, and it's a huge problem.

The non-profit group I'm most active with is currently struggling with a declining membership and an average member age that's increasing. One of the chief complaints of the faction that's trying to open up the membership is the perception by newbies that there's an old, established, in-group who aren't much interested in them. Most of that in-group protest that nothing could be further from the truth, yet we don't get many truly new members to stay around and become old members. I'm an old member, but I think there's a lot of truth in the newbies' complaint.

Similarly, some (not all) of the moderators seem to want things to go back to "the way things used to be." Given my experience, this is a danger signal, in that it suggests formation of a small, old guard that effectively repels newbies, even though it attempts to be open.

This is not meant as a criticism of the policies of this board, nor its moderators or members. I like this site, even though I contribute very little. What I am pointing out is that people of good will, for the best of intentions, can harm a group through actions designed to help it. I'm dealing with one of those situations right now, and I'm hoping that it doesn't happen here as well.

Best,

F

[Andrew]

Not at all what's going on here, Fearn. Quite the contrary, actually.

Thanks to everyone for the constructive input.

Best,
Andrew