plese help identify this pamor

[nechesh]

Ian, thanks for stepping in with that reminder. Certainly Kiai seems to be trying to put a great deal of words and beliefs into my mouth that certainly are not my own. I would like to keep this discussion friendly and scholarly and see no need for anyone to get too excitable.
Actually Kaia, rather than denigrate the early Javanese i would put them in the same light as ALL human beings. It seems to me it is the nature of ALL human beings to exaggerate their history and exploits in legend and song. This is true even in "continuous narrative" situations such as the one you claim exists in Jawa. And actually, i would be willing to bet that at least as many Englishmen would be able to tell you about Chapel Perilous and Sir Gawain as Javanese could identify elements of their own mythology. The English certainly spend a lot more school time on their history and legends than we Americans do, but even i as an American am fairly familar with Arthurian legend. I certainly do not claim to know more than you about your own people's legends and myths, but i would be willing to bet that your understanding of such things is the exception rather than the rule because of your intensive study of the keris. I am not so sure that the average man on the streets of Jakarta would have your knowledge of such things.
Just for the record, did the Cihnese monks state that the Javanese they encountered WERE demons, or that they BELIEVED in demons, because i think that the latter statement is probably true, no?
Still i must insist that you keep your statements to me civil and respectful as i have tried to do with you. It is possible to have discussion, debate and even diagreement with out resorting to anger and sarcasm.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Ian

Gentlemen:

Like so many of our discussions of keris, this one is straying into metaphysical areas and conjecture. We seem to wandering off the original topic posted by VVV.

I would also remind folks this Forum asks that we remain respectful and civil in our exchanges with other members. Some of our past keris discussions have become heated and personal, with people taking offense.

Ian.

Ian a keris is a metaphysical object more so than it is a physical object so wandering into the metaphysical is the nature of any discussion on keris.

I do not think that using quotes from an ancient racist monk, who saw the highly civilized Javanese as demons and uncouth, without pointing out that these monks had a racist bias and did not even bother to find out the name of the object they were describing, is respectful. On the contrary it is very racist and I am very shocked that this forum feels that it is scientific to tout racist statements as evidence of the keris being a weapon to kill in Java. Also according to the scientific evidence on the stone reliefs of Loro Jonggrang the keris was created by monkeys and copied by the Java Mpus who were stupider than monkeys. I do take offence when people divorce the Java keris from it's cultural context because I am Javanese, albeit a post modern one, one who is not afraid to state my mind and place high value on the knowledge of my society and my fore-fathers, higher than the colonial pseudo-science being used to rob the people of Java from describing their own spiritual weapon.

Salam Keris

[Ian]

OK guys. I think we have heard where people stand.

This thread has lost its way with respect to the original topic and I have locked it. Sorry Vinny -- I hope you got some helpful information.

Ian.

[Andrew]

I'm going to jump in here with some general comments and advice. If you have not already done so, please read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

Pay particular attention, please, to the following passages:

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