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#31 | |
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The wootz is not crystalline but modern wootz tend to be similar to it. The cracks are not sign of age but sign of forging flaws which can happen to this day (unless you believe in the miracle of modern technology, which I doubt Rajastanis are using in mass) |
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#32 | |
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#33 | |
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I hesitate to use it as an authentic example but I have enlarged the available image a bit, there may be some other opinions. |
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#34 |
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Based on the screen shot, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole :-)))
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#35 |
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Talking about the Chicago dagger.
Clearly modern-looking pattern welded blade, suposedly coming from a time when almost all daggers were sporting wootz blades. If it were for this reason alone and I would suspect a fake. Also silver Koftgari in exceptionally good condition from a time when gold Koftgari was almost exclusively used. Everything points to a modern production dagger and how the "specialists"of the Chicago Institute got their oppinion is beyond my understanding. |
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#36 | |
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Carving steel in this shape was not as common as it seems so how do you accurately determine its age. The work is not extremely detailed and there is no other decoration such as koftgari to judge from. I think that at this time it is impossible to make an accurate age determination but all the same it is a nice unique Indian dagger with a wootz blade. |
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#37 | |
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#38 |
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I refer readers to http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=7058 and at the forth post down the list...Jim McDougall outlines an interesting set of notes.
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#39 |
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#40 | |
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From the collection of Arms and Armour in the Prince of Wales Museum, now known as Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sanghrahalaya, Mumbai India. |
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#41 | |
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If they were "prominent" and "common" why is it so hard to find any additional images of one? I also thought they were more widely used but what at first appeared to be old turned out to be modern on close inspection. |
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#42 |
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The Met SEE http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/452103 for a Rams Head Hilt. I the case of the Met exhibit is of Kuldan style ...which is perhaps described reasonably at http://www.sneharateria.com/let-kund...ak-for-itself/
Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 26th August 2016 at 07:15 PM. |
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#43 |
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![]() ![]() The rams head is termed 'meshamuki' (Pant, 1980, New Delhi, p.113, fig. 294, mesha=sheep, but applies to ram as well). Most of these 'rams head' hilts on daggers or swords seem associated with Rajputs in N. India in the periods noted. According to the Vedas, many animals and creatures are associated as vehicles for various divinities in the Hindu pantheon of deities, and the ram is one for that of the four Agnivashi clans' ". Unquote. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 26th August 2016 at 07:33 PM. |
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#44 | |
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#45 |
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I have seen a few iron ram heded daggers in the museums I visited in Rajahstan, but I didn't take any photos of them as they looked quite dull and uninteresting. Maybe that's why there aren't so many photos of them on the net, because they don't look very spectacular.
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#46 |
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Another Ramshead Dagger is at http://library.clevelandart.org/node/238552
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#47 | |
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#48 | |
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"Arms and Armour: Traditional weapons of India," page 50, 73, 78, 83, 84, 139, 140 Some of them may be other metals (gilt brass) but most are iron. PS: Yes, carving iron is difficult but it was quite wide spread and the Katar you showed in your earlier posting is just one of the many examples of such ironwork. To my knowledge, iron animal head hilts were mostly popular in the 19th century, but I cannot remember where I got this information from. Tried to find in a few of my books but couldn't find it there so it might be anecdotal. ![]() Last edited by mariusgmioc; 27th August 2016 at 09:01 AM. |
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#49 | |
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Indian khanjar dagger, 17th century, steel, iron, silver, copper alloy, H. 14 3/16 in. (36 cm); W. 3 1/4 in. (8.3 cm); Wt. 12.8 oz. (362.9 g), Met Museum. Last edited by estcrh; 28th August 2016 at 06:03 PM. |
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#50 | |
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Anyhow, the margins of the hilt are pretty much like those of the one in the original posting. But again... 17th century (namely 1600+) ?!?! I doubt! Much more likely 19th century! |
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#51 | ||
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Pyhrr, Stuart W., Donald J. La Rocca, and Mr. Morihiro Ogawa. Arms and Armor: Notable Acquisitions 1991-2002. New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, September 4, 2002–June, 29 2003. p. 40, no. 36, ill. Last edited by estcrh; 28th August 2016 at 08:06 PM. |
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#52 | |
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This is a great thread and all participants have given it a good airing... thus I do not want to be difficult... and will en devour to run with the ball in whatever direction it goes but I recommend one head at a time...lest it gets in a tangle... ![]() |
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#53 | |
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#54 | |
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Maybe they consider it exceptional for 17th century. Maybe they consider it exceptional because thy didn't see another. However, I have seen a few and I don't think it was exceptional in the 19th century. Moreover, you found yourself a couple of iron carved zoomorphic hilts. I found others (at least a couple of the ones I indicated are iron). Now how many more do you think are needed to officially say they were "common"?! What relevance will it have as the next question might be "how common" or "define common"?! ![]() I believe the essential point was to demonstrate the existence of such hilts as early as 17th century and whether there were only one hundred made or ten thousand is less relevant. |
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#55 | |
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#56 | |
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Here is another one with a horse head hilt, this one though is described as being cast, I think the lion head one may be cast as well, there seems to be a what could be a casting line on it (red arrrows).
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#57 | |
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They are definitely not chiseled directly from a raw iron ingot. And one of the easiest things to do is to polish off the casting line. |
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#58 |
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One thing I'm noticing in the hilt photos is that there don't seem to be a lot (aside from ones that are modern) where there are horns or ears that stick out very far. It's one thing for a hilt to be carved to look like a lion/tiger/bear/etc, but perhaps it's entirely another for it to have actual horns. My dagger appears to have horns made separately and welded into place. Or...it's just occurred to me...perhaps they're epoxied into place. There's a lot of blackness and discoloration right around the base of the horns. Is there a non-destructive test for epoxy or other glues?
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#59 | |
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![]() PS: However, this is a very interesting observation that would almost certainly indicate a much more recent production. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 30th August 2016 at 07:57 AM. |
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#60 | |
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