Is it a katar dagger ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

Certamente!

I had a sadistic impulse to respond in Chinese, but was concerned with the reaction of our moderators.
Oh, what the hell!
当然

That your impulses never be worse, אריאל‎ .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Well Ariel, it was not Anup Singh - it was his brother who was very big.
As not many of us know the language, nor read it, in which the two are writing - can we come down to business?

[francantolin]

Hello,
Thank you Jens for your precious comments about giant fighters !!

I hesitate to use too another alphabet
but I prefer continue with my bad english !!

I wonder why it's so corroded while really old katars or swords 15-16th century) have still a nice blade.
Only the way they keep/ preserve it ?

The composition of the steel could have an influence ?

Was this one only made of iron or did it sleep under water or wet soil during a century ?

I try in another forum specialised in archeology-minerals if they can help for date it, we'll see what they say...

Kind regards

[francantolin]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,
Thank you Jens for your precious comments about giant fighters !!

I hesitate to use too another alphabet
but I prefer continue with my bad english !!

I wonder why it's so corroded while really old katars or swords 15-16th century) have still a nice blade.
Only the way they keep/ preserve it ?

The composition of the steel could have an influence ?

Was this one only made of iron or did it sleep under water or wet soil during a century ?

I try in another forum specialised in archeology-minerals if they can help for date it, we'll see what they say...

Kind regards

But ''YOU'' are REALLY the best forum for reactivity, universal and university knowledge...... and fun !

Thank you !

[kronckew]

बेशक

[ariel]

I have several excavated nomadic sabers 8-11 century. Same appearance.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

... As not many of us know the language, nor read it, in which the two are writing - can we come down to business? ...

My appologies for your disapproval of some innocent words in Hebrew (Ariel's other language), in consonance with Frankie's "Amen" previous expression. Nothing secret or offensive; and availble at Google translator, a source that many of us often use to convert into English important information for our discussions.
We are always down to business, Jens !

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Fernando.

[mariusgmioc]

double posting

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ariel

If its blade looks like a Katar, the handle looks like a Katar, and functionally it can be used like a Katar, why should we think that it is something other than just a Katar?

It only looks like a katar but it cannot be PROPERLY used like a katar as it will be very unstable in the hand.

Maybe to be used for theatrical performance, or just for decoration as part of a poor man's wedding attire.

[ariel]

Imagine that its horizontal bar is wrapped with thick strips of leather or fabric. Would you change your verdict?

[kronckew]

Marius' comment no. 15 on the earlier post No.12 being a fake may be clouding his inability to envision it with an oval or more ergonomically shaped grip that would allow a user to, in the words of FIF, Index the blade properly.

In contradiction to the historical examples of western and eastern swords that DO have cylindrical grips, and were obviously made that way for ages. Marking down an item they are unfamiliar with and do not grip or use properly is not the fault of the weapon.

[Richard G]

Richard, I dont think a slaughter's sticking knife would have had a diamond shaped blade.[/QUOTE]

Why not Jens?
Many of the modern ones have diamond shaped blades,=.
Regards
Richard

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard so you found a butchers knife on the net, with a diamond shaped blade. This does not proof anything, and besides from that, I am sure the steel is of a different quality than the steel used for the katar originally shown.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ariel

Imagine that its horizontal bar is wrapped with thick strips of leather or fabric. Would you change your verdict?

Not likely.

It is not only the geometry of the crossbar/crossbars that determine the stability in the hand, but also the extended longitudinal arms that contribute in a major way.
Those long arms are there with a purpose and no matter how flat/rectangular the transverse grip would be, it simply cannot ensure enough stability alone. Without the long arms, the slightest misalignment of the thrust would not only be ineffective, but also can have disastrous effect on your wrist.

I am saying all this because I have small hands and was able to play quite a lot with my katars and got a feel on how they fit in the hand.

Yet, this is only my personal opinion...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Marius, but I will show you the statue from where the katar, shown as a deawing, in my article origins. Its from a temple from Orissa build in the 10th century.

[Richard G]

Sorry Jens.
It was on;y a suggestion. I wasn't seeking to prove anything.
Regards
Richard

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thank you Marius, but I will show you the statue from where the katar, shown as a deawing, in my article origins. Its from a temple from Orissa build in the 10th century.

Thank you Jens!

The sculpture is a proof that katars existed and were used as early as 10 century.

However, the sculpture is strongly stylised and cannot be consdidered as an accurate description of the precise geometry of the katar.

Also it would have been technically very difficult to make the katar in the sculpture with longer arms as they would have broken during the sculpting process.

Because of the artistic stylization, even the position of the hand holding the katar in the sculpture would make any thrust highly ineffective...

Last but not least, even the highly stylised katar in the sculpture resembles more to the clasic katars we know (with a characteristic triangular blade) than to the "item" in the original posting.

Do you know of any extant historical example of a katar like the one in the original posting?

[francantolin]

Hello,

I found this picture of old indians swords an harpoon,
comes from Paul Jaiwant book Arms and Armour of India.
archaic models.

I don't pretend mine is so old ( or just a real old !! )
but it can be a mix between this old ''antenna'' sword and a katar,
used in two ways, as a small sword or as a push dagger .

Just an idea but why not ?!...

For the handle efficiency-handling, I will try to wrap the bar with a strip of cloth 2-3cm thick and tell you.

[francantolin]

Three other pictures of the dagger,
one side is much damaged/a lot of small holes,
the other side is in better conditions...

Kind regards

[Jens Nordlunde]

Frankie, no way that your weapon was held like this.


Richard, dont say you are sorry, as there is no reason to be. You came up with a sugestion. and this is as this forum works. Others may have other thoughts, and will say so.


Marius, no I dont. My guess is, that any 'old' katar is still to be found in the earth (ealier battle fields), or have been melted down centuries ago.

[kronckew]

From Pitt Rivers museum:

[Robert]

For the last few days I have been trying with no luck to locate an old gardening tool owned by my Great Grandmother called a dibble. Though not quite as large as the one being discussed here it too has a shovel style handle and a diamond profiled blade. These were used for planting and while some have only a round blade for punching holes into the soil others had blades like this that were used not only for planting seeds but for cutting sod and roots. Below is a photo of a newer example with a round blade. If this is a dibble (as I suspect it to be) it could have been pushed into the soil forgotten and lost for years which would explain the overall heavily rusted condition.

Best,
Robert

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Robert

If this is a dibble (as I suspect it to be) it could have been pushed into the soil forgotten and lost for years which would explain the overall heavily rusted condition.
Best,
Robert

Unless your dibble is a katar, I vote for the dibble.

The rusted condition means nothing look at all the Chinese swords fakes or the Central Asian sword fakes...

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by francantolin

used in two ways, as a small sword or as a push dagger .

Hi
The push daggers are secured by fingers.
The way your tool is made you cannot do that...

[francantolin]

Hello,
a blacksmith told me that for him it was a really old ( spear ?) blade
separated in two parts at the basis in a second time much later...

For make a katar ?! or a tool ?!

[Jens Nordlunde]

You are right Kronckew. Katars seem to have had different forms, till they ended up looking 'more or less' alike. These different forms seem to have been used at the same time, although far more research has to be done on the subject.
Below is one of mine, former in The Norris Castle Collection, UK. South Indian possible Deccan 17th century.
If the katar started as a tool, is a question I cant answer - as I dont know, and I have no where seen any hint of this.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Not likely.

It is not only the geometry of the crossbar/crossbars that determine the stability in the hand, but also the extended longitudinal arms that contribute in a major way.
Those long arms are there with a purpose and no matter how flat/rectangular the transverse grip would be, it simply cannot ensure enough stability alone. Without the long arms, the slightest misalignment of the thrust would not only be ineffective, but also can have disastrous effect on your wrist.

Marius,
As you can see, there are good and old examples of Katars with very short side projections. One could argue that the long ones might have served as minimalistic gauntlets, but you would agree that those were not very effective. Also, since they were positioned on the lateral sides of the forearm, their ability to minimize bending of the wrist was practically nonexistent. To control for it, one would need rigid support of the dorsal side of the forearm. Indians might have mutated their katars into hooded examples and, eventually, into Patas to correct it.

But, as usual, it was the fighting function that took the precedence.
Short lateral arms or long ones would not change the biomechanics of the thrust, i.e. the stabbing function.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ariel

Marius,
As you can see, there are good and old examples of Katars with very short side projections. One could argue that the long ones might have served as minimalistic gauntlets, but you would agree that those were not very effective. Also, since they were positioned on the lateral sides of the forearm, their ability to minimize bending of the wrist was practically nonexistent. To control for it, one would need rigid support of the dorsal side of the forearm. Indians might have mutated their katars into hooded examples and, eventually, into Patas to correct it.

But, as usual, it was the fighting function that took the precedence.
Short lateral arms or long ones would not change the biomechanics of the thrust, i.e. the stabbing function.

Short side projections is a looong way from NO side projections¨
The side projections serve not mainly to keep the wrist in alignment with the arm, but mostly to stabilise the dagger in the hand when the fist is tightened.

When the fist is tightened in the grip, one projection (the upper one) is pressed in the V-shaped space formed by the fist between the thumb and extension of the index finger, while the lower one is pressed against the hypothenar eminence, thus securing the grip.

Anyhow, from Robert's message, it became quite apparent this is a gardening tool.

However, this is my opinion, and mine alone.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

However, this is my opinion, and mine alone.

It's not only your opinion, it's also mine.



The two last katar posted have nothing to do with the weapon? tool posted originally... And this is not an opinion but a fact.