Were sabres used effectively in U.S. Civil War?

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by celtan

Perhaps they were used afterward, during the US-Philippines War ..?

Best

M

This little puppy did more for the Americans in the Philippine jungle than any sword I know of.

My pride and joy -

[celtan]

Yep! The fabled 45. The hydrostatic shock of it's low velocity bullet, was the only thing suppossedly capable of stopping a juramentado.

(BTW, it's coming back to active service, as a newly designed pistol)

M

Originally Posted by Dmitry

This little puppy did more for the Americans in the Philippine jungle than any sword I know of.

My pride and joy -

[celtan]

That was in 1942, under Lt. Edwin P. Ramsey. The 26th Cavalry "Philippine Scouts" engaged Japanese Infantry at Morong, in the Island of Luzon. They had already seen cavalry combat against the Japanese at Lingayen Gulf in 1941.

Originally Posted by celtan

Happy New Year to all.

Jim, I have owned many and still own some, of the several types of Sabers and Swords used by the US and Spain, during the SAW and the CW. Not one of them was sharp.

BTW; no US Cavalry ever set foot on the Philippines _during_ the SAW.

AFAIK, after ther debacle at Santiago/Cavite and the destruction of Montojo's and Cervera's Fleets, there only was a mock artillery battle in Manila, a sham in order to give control of the city to US Troops rather than to Aguinaldo's rebels, whom the Spanish believed would massacre the residents. Again, AFAIK, threre were no direct confrontations between the US and Spanish Forces.

While Montojo's fleet was destroyed, Philippines passed into US Hands only after being effectively sold to the US at the Treaty Of Paris.

Perhaps they were used afterward, during the US-Philippines War ..?

Best

M



Thanks Manolo, I hadnt noticed I had interpolated the Philippines with the reference to SAW trooper.
Can you say more on which action in Luzon the reference to cavalry charge with sabre in 1906 would refer to?

Best regards,
Jim

[kronckew]

details:

In support of Mac Arthur's plan to stop the enemy advance in a series of battle lines, Gen. Wainwright personally ordered Lt. Ramsey on January 16 to lead an advance guard to reconnoiter and occupy a strategic village on the Luzon coast called Morong. The 26th Cavalry was ordered to secure it until the First Philippine Division arrived.

Forming two columns, three mounted platoons of the 26th Cavalry set out for Morong. Lt. Ramsey led the head platoon on his horse Bryn Awryn. The two other platoons trailed behind. Reaching the center of the village, Ramsey and his men were met by rifle and automatic weapons fire from the enemy. Japanese infantry by the hundreds were also crossing the river and would soon be streaming into Morong.

The number of Japanese soldiers was overwhelming in comparison to the cavalry troops, and Ramsey knew that the element of surprise would be their only hope of breaking and scattering the lines of advancing Japanese infantrymen.

"Over the rattling gunfire I ordered my troopers to deploy as foragers, and I raised my pistol. A charge would be our only hope to break up the body of Japanese troops and to survive against their superior numbers. For centuries the shock of a mounted charge had proved irresistible; now the circumstances and all my training made it instinctual," Ramsey later wrote.

"I brought up my arm and yelled to my men to charge. Bent nearly prone across the horses' necks, we flung ourselves at the Japanese advance, pistols firing full into their startled faces. A few returned our fire, but most fled in confusion, some wading back into the river, others running madly for the swamps," recalled Ramsey. "To them we must have seemed a vision from another century, wildeyed horses pounding headlong; cheering, whooping men firing from the saddles."

Lt. Ramsey's charge at Morong was the last mounted cavalry charge in U.S. military history. After driving the enemy back across the river, his platoon then dismounted, pulled out rifles from their scabbards and formed a skirmish line to keep the enemy from crossing.

With dozens of Japanese still in the village behind the troopers, Lt. Ramsey returned with a few of his men and fought the enemy there. Reinforced by the second and third platoons of Ramsey's cavalry unit and the arrival of the First Philippine Division, the village and defensive positions were finally secured.

aside: no sabres, they'd been phased out in 1935. also after the events described, the horses unfortunately had to be eaten. lt. ramsey apparently is still alive and active at 91.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

That was in 1942, under Lt. Edwin P. Ramsey. The 26th Cavalry "Philippine Scouts" engaged Japanese Infantry at Morong, in the Island of Luzon. They had already seen cavalry combat against the Japanese at Lingayen Gulf in 1941.

Hi Manolo,
I think the 1942 event was one of the 'number' of 'last' mounted cavalry charges....but sabres were of course not present.
I'm trying to discover more on the 1906 event where sabres where supposed to have used in Luzon.


Excellent detail from you and Kronkew on the 1942 charge, it really is interesting to see how late this gallant, but by this time anachronistic arm of the military was still seen.
Best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

In May 8th, 1920, during the Mexican Revolutionary Wars, a train carrying Mexican President Vetustiano Carranza was attacked at Apizaco by the numerous Infantry forces yet scant cavalry, belonging to Generals Maximo Rojas and Reyes Marquez, from the rebel Obregon's camp.

The “General Ignacio Allende” Dragoon Regiment happened to be at the Tepezpan train terminal, protecting the Govt. Convoys. They responded by making a quick cavalry charge just using their sabers, since there was no time to dismount, form lines and fight on foot.

The Dragoon Regiment immediately went on the attack, wielding blades and carrying their waving regimental flag. They didn’t use their guns, since they believed they wouldn’t hit anything at full gallop, and it would only slow them down. After breaking and pursuing the enemy’s lines with sabers “reddened with blood to their hilts”, some mounted troops of General Pilar Sanchez went to their assistance, this time packing their .45 side-arms, and causing the utter rout of all the Obregon’s Forces.

But that was not the last saber charge.

The Italian Savoia Regiment successfully attacked three encircling Siberian Infantry Battalions on August 23rd, 1942 with three cavalry Squadrons. This was near the river Don. They caused 100 enemy dead, plus 300 captured, and the utter rout of the whole sector’s enemy lines. All the enemy’s provisions, heavy weapons et al, were captured. The Italians lost about 40 dead and 80 wounded, and about 200 horses.


This last saber-wielding Cavalry charge also employed hand grenades, and guns (whenever possible), but it was a full-blown saber-waving cavalry charge from its origins.

In fact, some of the regiment's cavalry units even carried heavy machine guns, to be dismounted and rapidly deployed using ground cover, as dragoon's are meant to do. Yet the main charge was done using sabers at full gallop, and there actually were _three_ charges. Once their momentum was expended and the russian lines broken, they dismounted and fought on foot, mano a mano.


It’s interesting to read all that went before the actual charge. Their previous formal dinner with white linen and full service, the donning of their white gloves prior to grasping their sabers, the prior raising of the Regimental flag in the mounted line, then the order to “charge with sabers in hand” by Captain Leone. All these seem right out from the previous century..!


Best

M

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Manolo,
I think the 1942 event was one of the 'number' of 'last' mounted cavalry charges....but sabres were of course not present.
I'm trying to discover more on the 1906 event where sabres where supposed to have used in Luzon.


Excellent detail from you and Kronkew on the 1942 charge, it really is interesting to see how late this gallant, but by this time anachronistic arm of the military was still seen.
Best regards,
Jim

[kronckew]

gratuitous posting of italian 1888 officer's sabre.



seems appropriate

p.s. - it's razor sharp. (OK, it's a mounted artillery model, but close)

The 1 Cavalry Division Eugenio di Savoia was an Cavalry Division of the Italian Army during World War II. The Eugenio di Savoia was mobilized in 1940, as a cavalry division and took part in the Invasion of Yugoslavia. The Division remained in Yugoslavia in the Italian XI Corps (Ljubljana) as an occupying force on the Dalmatian coast. After the Italiam surrender the Division was disbanded in September 1943. While in Yugoslavia, the 14 Alessandria Regiment is credited with having conducted the last cavalry charge by the Italiam Army in World War II. On 17 October 1942 the regiment was encircled by a group of Tito's partisans near Poloj in Croatia. That night the cavalry launched repeated sabre charges against the partisans. Despite heavy casualties, the charge succeeded and broke through to safety. The Division had undergone a level of mechanization. Each division had two cavalry regiments, a highly-mobile infantry (Bersaglieri) regiment, an artillery regiment, and a light tank group. The squadrons of the cavalry regiments were horse-mounted and, other than a motorcycle company, the Bersaglieri were issued with bicycles. The light tank group had a total of 61 tanks. The tanks were typically L3s or L6s.