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#31 | |||
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Lol Jeff,
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Out of the original context you replied Quote:
Snipped from another section in your reply Quote:
Cheers GC |
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#32 | |
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To my knowledge not a single brass lion pommel and grip is discussed in Mowbrey's work. Do you think that Bazelon who is noted in the acknowledgements of that book is unaware of the pearls that only you seem to have gleamed? I have reviewed the text and you are talking about apples when the topic is oranges. Ok I have answered you, now tell me where in the Medicus discredits the Brazelon article. All the Best Jeff Last edited by Jeff D; 28th December 2010 at 01:26 AM. |
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#33 | |||
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In an earlier post, I mention the bulk of his writing of #18 is about the overall bulk of similar sabers with organic and bound grips but otherwise similar. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You might find this interesting in the light of Bazelon and his notes on Prahl and found elsewhere. Quote:
~~~~ What Bazelon does not describe may well be the grail as yet unfounded but Prahl was making brass gun mounts as of 1777 (also found elsewhere). There were earlier brass foundries in Philly and that I do not deny Prahl either. There are some decent histories out there. Here is one I read through. http://books.google.com/books?id=8uYkAAAAYAAJ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ As to Flayderman and Stuart Mowbray in contention regarding Bazelon's article and the earlier posts regarding Flayderman's own experience, as well as sales; I find Medicus as less supportive of the conjecture that appears to drive this particular discussion. For a third time, I now point to the lion pommel sabers listed in that book as counter to the Flayderman sale descriptions posted earlier. As the elder Mowbray's notes and Flayderman's collaboration I mention them as less absolute about a great many swords and offer less speculation than earlier sword books. Again, I have not read Bazelon's article and have only other's read on that. I have though read in this thread that some of what is definitive of Bazelon's article is presented only as second hand interpretations that could be as misread as I feel my own posts here are. Cheers GC |
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#34 |
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I am sorry if this entry has caused a stink, nor did I see it coming. I didn't mean to imply that this sword type was the original American prototype, although that is the conclusion Flayderman came to in that long-ago auction catalog from the 1990's. I also realise that new information is coming to the surface everyday and I am open to it, but it still seems to me that for an absolute positive answer, the jury is still out. I am not an expert in this (or probably any other edged weapon area, but particularly weak here, thus the reason for my posting). If I have seemed closed to any of the information thus posted, I assure you, I am not, just digesting it a piece at a time. I would hate to see anyone leave this forum because of a difference of opinion. I welcome controversy IF it serves to shed light on certain forms of esoteric weapons.
I am not posting this to defend or deny American make, nor an I going to argue that this is private purchase. My struggle lies in a definitive answer as to whether any other examples of this sword exist in any other collection pointing away to a strictly American usage. It is not fair to treat this as the lowly import sword when i feel it belongs side-by-side with it's iron compatriots, many of which BTW during the Revolution might have foreign-imported parts/blades/etc. With that, I am also going to step back (but not run away) from this thread until those with more information step forth. Jeff, I do hope you will start a separate thread featuring your sword, but it may also involve controversy in this admittedly obscure time period in American history (post-Revolution up to the great eagle-head era). Mark Last edited by M ELEY; 28th December 2010 at 02:52 AM. |
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#35 | |||||
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Thanks that is interesting. No Bazelon does not ascribe a specific maker. If five or six shops are casting hilts and 3 or four guards, who would you say the maker was. would you label them with one? Quote:
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In my original post I suggested that the Bazelon article be reviewed to counter your observations, I still believe this. It is not now or ever been a 'blow off' . I could care less if you do, I do suspect you will not feel it is a waste of time. If my scanner was actually working I would try to get it to you. Mark, As in the original post I still feel that the best theory on the origin of your hilt is Revolution-Federal period Philadelphia. All the Best Jeff |
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#36 | |
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Hi Jeff
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Cheers GC |
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#37 |
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Thank you, Jeff, for giving me your opinion on the proper title for this sword. It was my assumption as well, based on the article (I have a photocopy that Man-At-Arms sent me as that issue is long out of print and hard to come by). I am unfortunately a Luddite and don't own a scanner. If the Forum has someone I could fax it to, I would be happy to provide it??
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#38 |
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Mark Cloke of www.oldswords.com/ is eager to share such articles for all and would gladly take submissions to add to an ever growing database of Man At Arms articles.
As mentioned before, I take photos of pages instead of a scanner (I do have a dead one of those here). I realize there are copyright issues as well but we are more often relating book information with credit for the source and being used for educational purposes. I am kind of old fashioned as well as not having a fax set up. Cheers GC |
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#39 | |
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All the Best Jeff |
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#40 |
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In leu of better pics, here is the original piece from Dmitry's site before our trade-
www.sailorinsaddle.com/product.aspx?id=1202 |
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#41 |
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Here is the Mowbray page that better describes the sketched image of the primitive eagle shown in Gilkerson's Boarders Away.
![]() I've no doubt that Gilkerson's "finest material" is drawn from the elder's pages. If image sizing is an issue, feel free to pm me with your email and we can go from there. I am on dial up but usually have some time to wait for downloads. I recently received an inquiry re eagles and the file was 9.9mb, which I had in hand after an hour's download. The shot above was with automatic camera settings with flash and other light. Many cell phones are better picture takers than my old Canon. Cheers GC |
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#42 |
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Thank you, Glenn, for a much clearer pic of the eagle pommel sword that was but a drawn example on Gilkerson's. Upon seeing this, it becomes clear from the details that it isn't pertinent to our discussion. I must get a copy of Mowbray's book one of these days. I appreciate the clarification, but still hold true that the lion hilts were strictly American used, if not American made. "If" being the key word. Still happy with the piece all-around, though.
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#43 |
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Gosh, my wish list for books goes on forever. The Mowbray eagle title has a lot more information in it than just the galleries of the Medicus title with crisp succinct attributions. Mowbray (as I'm sure Bazelon's article is) took some time for both hard notes and speculation Some of my earlier posts while maybe sounding harsh do go to how Mowbray describes foundries in Philly and the cast hilts specifically.
As I am also an avid tracker of the Osborn weeping eagles as shown earlier, the definition of castings is not necessarily and absolute of origin for the assembly of the swords, or indeed the castings themselves. However, the cruder grips and longer blades do fall out of the norm for a lot of imports and that does lean towards the American side of the fence, while still not being conclusive as to manufacture. All quite definitely meant for American use, as with the sword of this subject. As with some other deeply ringed or spiraled grips, I also have thought them as "must be American" until seeing some of the same patterns turning up in Birmingham work. As mentioned, I am not one to ignore that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but something etched in stone (such as so and so was casting these grips) or in a city's journal would lead to a hard conclusion. It is that one is happy with an acquisition that is the most important. The sword does look like it was assembled, as the guard and handle look to be different metals All good points for some of the parts being American made. Cheers GC |
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#44 |
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Apparently, 15 y.o. girls do not consider helping their dad with his "retarded sword stuff" as quality time. I will pick up a new scanner this week, and hopefully scan the article on friday.
All the Best Jeff |
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#45 |
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![]() ![]() ![]() Reference 15 y.o. girl...Yes, I have one of those as well. She's the quintessential poster child for the American teen. We parents are just idiots, etc, etc. Glenn, that you for pointing me to this valuable reference of Mowbray's. I have browsed his other books, but not the one you show pics from. I'll definitiely add it to the wish list. Yes, I also thought it was assembled here with the slightly more primitive slot guard. I'm still wondering if the guard is either copper, brass that has pickled with age or rose brass. Does anyone out there know if there is a non-destructive way of testing/differentiating between copper and brass? I don't want to hurt the patina, though. I've only seen a few swords with copper fittings over the years, most from the Revolution and those just in small fixtures/fittings. Or am I wrong on this? (Have to look through Neumann's again...) |
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#46 |
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In reading around outside of books and regarding the cast hilts while on a Widmann expedition, I came across a recent public uploading of a Man At Arms August 2010 article. It is in two parts and is in general reference for U.S. Marines swords but ancillary to the current discussion. It is in two parts but relates a good bit of early Philadelphia sword making. These perhaps a good bit later but the German/Prussian connections and ties are still there throughout Widmann and Horstmann operations.
www.bcadapa.org/smullen1-sm.pdf www.bcadapa.org/smullen2-sm.pdf A pair of 1788 type swords had come my way from Stanley a year of so ago. I forwarded the links to Mark at Old Swords and they should be listed there now as well. you may have to register for the articles section. http://www.oldswords.com/resources/articles.php This seems to be a happy lot of Pa folk. Dealers and collectors. http://www.bcadapa.org/ Cheers GC |
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#47 |
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I had skimmed through the Man-At-Arms article, but at the time, had not noted the implications of it (I also didn't have the lion hilt yet). Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting it in full (you have a great scanner as everything came out crystal clear!).
Now I don't want to sound like a dunce, but I want to make sure I took the same info from the article. Widmann and later Horstman did make these brass one-piece pommel/grips and guards? The blades were imported, but the guards were marked with these American makers? I know they came later in sword-making vs the item being discussed, but still an interesting step in the direction of brass casting. I used the OldSwords site for many years and was a member back when it was free- ![]() ![]() |
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#48 |
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Oh, I see I misread an earlier post. You took pics and no scanner use. Wow, that's one good camera.
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#49 |
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http://www.ushistory.org/carpentersh...calltoarms.htm
http://www.thayeramericana.com/back/.../research7.pdf http://massmoments.org/moment.cfm?mid=275 Google search 'A Case for Stability' By Samuel Crowthers (google books) My point being, if all of these things were being made in well-known Philadelphia foundries in the period we speak of with established provenance, why not sword hilts? Perhaps they still just haven't come to light. After all, a few web searches reveil large cast andirons, intricate cabinet furnishings, large bells, and mention of weapon fixtures. The Paul Revere article talks about the brass fittings for the U.S.S. Constitution being made in 1797. I forgot a major point by Bazelon in his article. He had mentioned the large flux of foreign craftsmen coming into America at this time (pointing out a Scot that might have been making blades along with Rose and Prahl just as one example). If the supposed skill of working in brass was absent with the American craftsmen (an opinion I would challenge regardless of this sword), perhaps one of those craftsmen working in the Philly area was responsible, much like the Houndslow German craftsmen in Great Britain? Just another thought... Last edited by M ELEY; 31st December 2010 at 08:14 AM. |
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#50 | |
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![]() Happy New Year GC Last edited by Hotspur; 1st January 2011 at 03:59 AM. |
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#51 |
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Now I see your point of caution. Not a denial, simply a waiting for more evidence. Makes perfect sense and still leaves room for exciting new developments in this area of study.
Happy New Year to all at the Forum! Mark |
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#52 |
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In the newest Man-At -Arms magazine this month is an excellent article on the so-called Prahl eagle head swords with many of the same remarks and points brought up in our discussion. Specifically, the fact that many of these early eagle-head types had imported blades, but the jury is out on whether the hilts (one piece affairs of solid brass with 'ugly' eagle and 10 sided grips) were made in Philly or elsewhere. As these swords were made for the militias, the author of the article implies that most of these, IRON hilted included, were probably either individual or militia private purchase. Interesting that these Prahl-types had the same characteristics as our lion-hilt (solid brass one piece cast figural hilt, some crude and others more refined, private purchase, many with the 4 and 6 slot guards). Great article, by the way...
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#53 |
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Thanks for an update. The author of the article was whom, you might mention?
I don't subscribe, so I have to live vicariously with what any may care to share. This quarter's budget just ate up a back up machine and in finding another book to buy. Cheers GC |
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#54 | |
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Great posts Mark as always!!!! Ahhh………….research...…...remember, "more research to be done!" ??? ![]() |
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#55 |
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Hello Jim and good to hear from you. Wow, I had almost forgotten about this old post! Has it really been almost 10 years??! Getting old! Unfortunately, I don't have that sword anymore. It was a nice piece, but I traded it in for something more appropriately naval. Thanks for digging this one up and reminding me the importance, as you always say, in research! Talk to ya soon, Cap'n!
Mark |
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