SCHIAVONA SWORD VARIATIONS. - Page 2

fernando · 24th July 2012, 01:59 PM

Welcome to the forum Enibas

... and thanks for your interesting input

.

Matchlock · 24th July 2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE GAURD IS FORMED WITH FINGER JOINTS AND A CLAW AT THE END. PERHAPS A DRAGON OR CHIMERAS CLAWS ARE REPRESENTED. VERY COOL DON'T SEE HOW I MISSED IT BEFORE.

Hi Barry,

I have sometimes seen those joints elaborated as actual human fingers on rapier hilts!

m

Matchlock · 24th July 2012, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sioume

Thanks Michael for explanations.
So how someone can recognize a blade made in Passau and one with a wolf mark on it on it?
What differentiates them?

Thank for helping
Best
Alain

Hi Alain,

As Ben has pointed out in the meantime - thanks, Ben, and welcome here

- differentiating between original Passau wolves and their manifold copies is virtually impossible.
I guess that as time passed, some 500-400 years ago, less armories were ready to pay the considerably higher prices charged for 'real' Passau blades claimed to have been imported from that Lower Bavarian city.

It seems to have become generally accepted in weaponry that saying 'Passau wolf' implies 'Passau style wolf'; the same applies to 'Solingen' wolves.
For a couple of decades, this lead arms historians to call many of those wolves 'contemporary fakes'. I think that that the neutral term copy would be more appropriate as nothing like a copyright existed in those historical times.

Best,
m

pappa-karlo · 25th July 2012, 01:23 PM

I have Schiavone with unknown characters. Does anyone know what is it?

fernando · 25th July 2012, 02:39 PM

Maybe upside down ?

.

Enibas · 26th July 2012, 08:15 AM

Hello Pappa-karlo,

just I saw your niece piece. Quite perfect hilt, nice pommel.

I guess, that the stamped letters are cyrillic.
We can find a sciavona, also younger type (18th century ) with "three ladders" in the Collection Carl Beck. Sursee (Swiss). There is the name "Sava" stamped in cyrillic letters into the hilt (http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe67.html). The author Boccia mentions five Sciavone with the lettering "Sava" in cyrillic. It is assumed that this is the name of the master, who built the hilts.
Thus, it could be here to be a master signature
In this case, would Pappa-Karlo's sciavona also a hint that not only o n e master in cyrillic letters signed. Certainly there were no Italians, signed in Cyrillic, but there were craftsmen from abroad. Perhaps these craftsmen came from the Balkans. The rich Venice undoubtedly attracted numerous artisans from abroad and also had the need.

May be someone in the forum who can translate this cyrillic letters?

Very unusually is the plate at the hilt.
I am sorry, I did not found a english term for "Stichblatt"

. Never see before. But I've seen other modifications to sciavone. and do not rule out that the plate is mounted original. Thank your very much for showing, Pappa-Karlo!

ariel · 26th July 2012, 01:34 PM

Is this a schiavona variation? Just sold on e-bay for <$250 :-)

pappa-karlo · 26th July 2012, 02:59 PM

Thank you very much for your detailed response. It's very interesting. I think this should be name. I found the Serbian alphabet, but only a couple of letters are similar. Not easy question.

Enibas · 26th July 2012, 02:59 PM

The pommel of course is the cat-head's-pommel we know from the sciavona.
Your sword is conform to a type of naval weapon which was used in 17th century by mercenaries of venice.
Typical is the cat-heads-pommel, the guard and a rather short blade.

So at first we have to define, what is a sciavona variation?
Which are characteristics of the sciavona? Most important characteristics of sciavona:
1)The cat-heads-pommel (iron, brass, rarely silver or other)
2) the blade must be fit for cut
3) a basket hilt

Do you agree?

My opinioin:
In remote sense can your sword be described as Sciavona variation (Pommel, blade). Presumably this was not a weapon used by dalmatian mercenaries, who were usually as foot-soldier in the service of Venice during the 17th/18th century, but startet their mercenary career as naval figthers during the Middle ages (Boccia). Probably there were dalmatians still in the navy around 1700 and used this type, but this is bold speculated.

I think, other figthers enjoyed sciavona variations - like us

Matchlock · 26th July 2012, 04:58 PM

Hi Ben,

English auction catalogs use the expression shell-guard for the German word Stichblatt.
Durchbrochenes Stichblatt is pierced shell-guard.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 26th July 2012, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Is this a schiavona variation?

Maybe a one only setup (composite), instead ?

Enibas · 27th July 2012, 08:36 AM

Good morning to all.
Thank you for help with english term, Matchlock.

Fernando, of course the "naval sword" Ariel shows to us could be a composite one. The type is quickly done from old and new parts.
A final assessment of the authenticity by photo is not possible.

But the type (cat-head-pommel, shell, knuckleguard and short blade fit for cut) is not an individual case.
So I am going to view my images from the doge's palace, if there is the type in the this fantastic collection. If I find one or some, I will post it.

BerberDagger · 27th July 2012, 03:09 PM

the last exemple from ariel reply is a venetian naval sword called "Fanti del Mar" , it is a nice exemple but composite and a later exemple...
they was used by the venetian infantry troups called like the sword fanti del mar in italian , actually lagunari in Venice ( a modern military section ).

Here one of my differents exemples I had . This one with venetian arsenal mark.

fernando · 27th July 2012, 06:13 PM

Eco

Bravo, Lorenzo

.

Enibas · 27th July 2012, 06:57 PM

Now I do not have to look for an example.

Here it is!

Great piece, berber dagger. Now I am jealous.

How long is it overall?

BerberDagger · 27th July 2012, 07:26 PM

some books exemple of schiavona's , fanti del mar , schiavonesca .

BerberDagger · 27th July 2012, 07:33 PM

others .

BerberDagger · 28th July 2012, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enibas

Now I do not have to look for an example.

Here it is!
Great piece, berber dagger. Now I am jealous.
How long is it overall?

Hello,
This exemple was 90 cm circa , but usualy they can be from 85 to 102 cm max the largest exemple I seen ... thank you

Lee · 4th August 2012, 10:53 PM

Received by e-mail from an unregistered reader:

Quote:

I was looking for Serbian/Slavic swords Sciavonas in general. And came across SCHIAVONA SWORD VARIATIONS discussion and saw member named Pappa Karlo has the sword with signature on it he can not figure out. It is older form of Serbian azbuka/alphabet it reads GRGUR. It is serbian form of name Gregory now days more common amongst Croats. Exsample Grgur Golubic Serbian nobleman or Grgur Ninski, Bishop of Nin Croatia.

pappa-karlo · 5th August 2012, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Received by e-mail from an unregistered reader:

I'm impressed! Thank you very much for your help!

aurelius56 · 7th October 2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Maybe upside down ?

.

Hello, this is my very first post :-) Yes - this letters are so called Croatian Cyrilic used up to the end of XVIII cent. and it reads Grgur (Gregory). It is very common marking on 3-row late XVIII cent. schiavona hilts. This particullar schiavona is mounted with XVIII cent. Austrian pallosh blade - not uncommon at all.
Regards, Zlatko

Addition - you may find longer version of this inscription in E.Oakeshott: "European Weapons and Armour" page 189 fig. 87 - "Grgur majstor" - meaning Gregory artisan - indicating local hilt production in Dalmatia.

fernando · 8th October 2012, 02:10 PM

Welcome to the forum Zlatko

.
Interesting observation on the Croatian Cyrilic inscription.
Have you any swords you would like to show us ?

Norman McCormick · 8th October 2012, 04:49 PM

Hi Zlatko,
The script on this Austrian mounted Pala has so far eluded translation, maybe you recognise the form? Oh, and welcome to the Forum, the nicest bunch of "eccentrics"

you'll ever meet.

Regards,
Norman.

aurelius56 · 8th October 2012, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Welcome to the forum Zlatko

.
Interesting observation on the Croatian Cyrilic inscription.
Have you any swords you would like to show us ?

Hi, yes I have several schiavonas in my collection.
For the start, here is the one with more elaborate hilt construction than usual
Early XVII cent, broad blade with short fuller, on both sides "marca di mosca" (Belluno?), iron pommel. Well proportioned and homogenuosus sword. Unfortunately previous owner used some acid to clean the sword :-(
Total length 105 cm; blade 90,5 cm; width 4,8 cm

aurelius56 · 8th October 2012, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Zlatko,
The script on this Austrian mounted Pala has so far eluded translation, maybe you recognise the form? Oh, and welcome to the Forum, the nicest bunch of "eccentrics"

you'll ever meet.

Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
unfortunately I do not recognize this characters :-(
They might be some talismanic magical signs or Russian Cyrilic - sorry.
Regards, Zlatko

Norman McCormick · 9th October 2012, 04:10 PM

Hi Zlatko,
Many thanks for taking the time to look.

My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 9th October 2012, 10:40 PM

Great sword Zlatko,
Thanks a lot for sharing.
Listen, why don't you open a thread/s to post your collection examples ?

theswordcollector · 2nd November 2012, 06:11 PM

Hello fellow collectors can anyone ID this schiavone maker , date orgin country ? I see a running wolf with rose gold inlay reminance and the orb and cross has the same rose gold inlay. Can anyone shanre any information on this piece? The pommel is very nicely detailed also. Thank you :-)

fernando · 4th November 2012, 01:26 PM

Very nice. Early type. Anyone around to tell more about this piece ?

theswordcollector · 4th November 2012, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Very nice. Early type. Anyone around to tell more about this piece ?

Thank you for the comment :-)

25th July 2012, 01:23 PM	#34
pappa-karlo Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 15	18 th century schiavona I have Schiavone with unknown characters. Does anyone know what is it? Attached Images

25th July 2012, 02:39 PM	#35
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Maybe upside down ? . Attached Images

26th July 2012, 08:15 AM	#36
Enibas Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 13	Unkown master? Hello Pappa-karlo, just I saw your niece piece. Quite perfect hilt, nice pommel. I guess, that the stamped letters are cyrillic. We can find a sciavona, also younger type (18th century ) with "three ladders" in the Collection Carl Beck. Sursee (Swiss). There is the name "Sava" stamped in cyrillic letters into the hilt (http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe67.html). The author Boccia mentions five Sciavone with the lettering "Sava" in cyrillic. It is assumed that this is the name of the master, who built the hilts. Thus, it could be here to be a master signature In this case, would Pappa-Karlo's sciavona also a hint that not only o n e master in cyrillic letters signed. Certainly there were no Italians, signed in Cyrillic, but there were craftsmen from abroad. Perhaps these craftsmen came from the Balkans. The rich Venice undoubtedly attracted numerous artisans from abroad and also had the need. May be someone in the forum who can translate this cyrillic letters? Very unusually is the plate at the hilt. I am sorry, I did not found a english term for "Stichblatt" . Never see before. But I've seen other modifications to sciavone. and do not rule out that the plate is mounted original. Thank your very much for showing, Pappa-Karlo!

26th July 2012, 01:34 PM	#37
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is this a schiavona variation? Just sold on e-bay for <$250 :-) Attached Images

26th July 2012, 02:59 PM	#39
Enibas Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 13	Naval sword The pommel of course is the cat-head's-pommel we know from the sciavona. Your sword is conform to a type of naval weapon which was used in 17th century by mercenaries of venice. Typical is the cat-heads-pommel, the guard and a rather short blade. So at first we have to define, what is a sciavona variation? Which are characteristics of the sciavona? Most important characteristics of sciavona: 1)The cat-heads-pommel (iron, brass, rarely silver or other) 2) the blade must be fit for cut 3) a basket hilt Do you agree? My opinioin: In remote sense can your sword be described as Sciavona variation (Pommel, blade). Presumably this was not a weapon used by dalmatian mercenaries, who were usually as foot-soldier in the service of Venice during the 17th/18th century, but startet their mercenary career as naval figthers during the Middle ages (Boccia). Probably there were dalmatians still in the navy around 1700 and used this type, but this is bold speculated. I think, other figthers enjoyed sciavona variations - like us

24th July 2012, 01:59 PM	#31
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum Enibas ... and thanks for your interesting input .

26th July 2012, 04:58 PM	#40
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Ben, English auction catalogs use the expression shell-guard for the German word Stichblatt. Durchbrochenes Stichblatt is pierced shell-guard. Best, Michael

27th July 2012, 08:36 AM	#42
Enibas Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 13	Marriage? Good morning to all. Thank you for help with english term, Matchlock. Fernando, of course the "naval sword" Ariel shows to us could be a composite one. The type is quickly done from old and new parts. A final assessment of the authenticity by photo is not possible. But the type (cat-head-pommel, shell, knuckleguard and short blade fit for cut) is not an individual case. So I am going to view my images from the doge's palace, if there is the type in the this fantastic collection. If I find one or some, I will post it.

27th July 2012, 03:09 PM	#43
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	the last exemple from ariel reply is a venetian naval sword called "Fanti del Mar" , it is a nice exemple but composite and a later exemple... they was used by the venetian infantry troups called like the sword fanti del mar in italian , actually lagunari in Venice ( a modern military section ). Here one of my differents exemples I had . This one with venetian arsenal mark. Attached Images

27th July 2012, 06:13 PM	#44
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Eco Bravo, Lorenzo .

27th July 2012, 06:57 PM	#45
Enibas Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 13	All righty! Now I do not have to look for an example. Here it is! Great piece, berber dagger. Now I am jealous. How long is it overall?

27th July 2012, 07:26 PM	#46
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	some books exemple of schiavona's , fanti del mar , schiavonesca . Attached Images

27th July 2012, 07:33 PM	#47
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	others . Attached Images

8th October 2012, 02:10 PM	#52
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum Zlatko . Interesting observation on the Croatian Cyrilic inscription. Have you any swords you would like to show us ?

8th October 2012, 04:49 PM	#53
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Zlatko, The script on this Austrian mounted Pala has so far eluded translation, maybe you recognise the form? Oh, and welcome to the Forum, the nicest bunch of "eccentrics" you'll ever meet. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 8th October 2012 at 07:19 PM.

9th October 2012, 04:10 PM	#56
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Zlatko, Many thanks for taking the time to look. My Regards, Norman.

9th October 2012, 10:40 PM	#57
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great sword Zlatko, Thanks a lot for sharing. Listen, why don't you open a thread/s to post your collection examples ?

2nd November 2012, 06:11 PM	#58
theswordcollector Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Berlin Posts: 48	A nice early Schiavone sword can anyone guess the smith, date, country?Thank you :-) Hello fellow collectors can anyone ID this schiavone maker , date orgin country ? I see a running wolf with rose gold inlay reminance and the orb and cross has the same rose gold inlay. Can anyone shanre any information on this piece? The pommel is very nicely detailed also. Thank you :-) Attached Images

4th November 2012, 01:26 PM	#59
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Very nice. Early type. Anyone around to tell more about this piece ?