Restoration Workshop Library.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

In respect of what approach should be adopted in the restoration/conservation of historic weaponry, I feel that the philosophy of the professional restorator is probably correct:-

do as much as is necessary, and as little as is possible.

The crux is that we have a sliding scale here: a museum curator (of an academic ethnographic collection in Europe, for example) usually has a very different approach regarding what is "necessary" than what a keris enthusiast in central Jawa may deem "necessary" (and I realize that there even are different approaches within modern Jawanese society)...

Commenting or judging on possibly conflicting advice/tips may pose another problem.

I guess a kind of pluralistic approach that compiles (in a structured manner) diverse suggestions/explanations/discussions and, especially, reasonably detailed descriptions of methods may suffice (possibly with added warnings if really deemed necessary) rather than trying to edit an officially sanctioned "how to" manual.

In any case, I'd strongly endorse to link to each original posting so that it is possible to explore the original context.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Rick,

I'm game.

A passworded private subforum can possibly be created for this effort's researchers/compilers .
I would think a half dozen dedicated people would suffice for the effort .

I strongly believe that at least *some* vetting of submitted tips and hints should be carried out .

Maybe some more folks with experience in different areas or topics may be nice to allow for discussions and different POVs.

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

That's great Kai .
Thank you .

Anyone else wish to be on the development team ?

I think Jim might make a good Staff Advisor on this project .

Rick

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Kai, you're quite correct, a variable approach is necessary, and I feel that this is as it should be.

The person in Central Jawa is operating within the cultural constraints of his society, just as the curator in London, New York or Paris is operating within the constraints of his society. For the collectors who frequent our discussions, the constraints are different yet again, as it seems to me that there are perhaps as many different philosophies as there are collectors.

This being so, the "--- do as much as is necessary, and as little as is possible.---" approach is clearly the only overarching philosophy that will satisfy all objectives, as each person sets his own objectives, in accordance with his own philosophy.

Rick, I'd be happy to assist in respect of items of tosan aji, I do have considerable experience in this field, and it seems that my private emails to collectors often deal with one aspect or another of the management of tosan aji. However, I would be reluctant to involve myself in other areas, because although I do have a little experience in some other fields, and my methods have been successful in most instances, they seem to often vary from the methods used by people who specialise in these other areas.

[Tim Simmons]

A really good idea. I need information on working with organic matierals like, rattan, coir, grass, rush and other fibers. Where to get them and in small enough quantity. An item may be incomplete and vunerable just for the lack of some cordage, which would have always been replace as and when needed in the original enviroment. I have had some success with rehilting sabers and other sword fittings; would be happy to pass on any information that might be helpful.

[Rick]

Great discussion Gentlemen; many good ideas floated .
Jim has graciously declined to lead this effort .
The Warung is where I belong; so this will not be my group to lead .

Keep the ideas coming .

Best,
Rick

[AJ1356]

This a great idea, there are lots of posts on this forum that contain lots of good information. However a consolidation of good info would be time saving.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My own area of special interest is one where ongoing restoration is an accepted and normal part of collection.

It is the normal, natural process that is applied to preserving the items which those of us involved in this sphere of tosan aji pursue.

Because of this, much of what has already been said in this thread appears to be self evident to me, and I have not contributed before now because I felt that another post in general agreement with the proposals that have been put forward would not be particularly valuable.

However, I note that Rick has suggested a way in which ongoing contributions to a resource to assist conservation/restoration could be structured in order to make it a safe and useable guide for people with varying levels of experience.

I wish to make it a matter of record that I fully endorse Rick's suggestions, and I feel that if anybody has any additional contribution or comment in respect of these suggestions, now might be a very good time to speak up.

Either we want something useable, or we do not.

Either we want a clearly structured way in which to proceed, or we do not.

The moderators and staff of our discussion group cannot function in a vacuum: - they need feedback and comment in order to make not only this idea for a restoration resource functional but indeed , for the ongoing success of our very valuable Forum.

In respect of what approach should be adopted in the restoration/conservation of historic weaponry, I feel that the philosophy of the professional restorator is probably correct:-

do as much as is necessary, and as little as is possible.

Salaams,

Restoration Workshops Library(or sub Forum). This is an excellent proposal. I hope that whatever shape is adopted and the concensus points toward a sub forum I suggest that by having an open Alphabetical Index that all forum members can participate. It follows that a general introduction would convey the flavour of this sub forum and I respectfully submit that the motto: "do as much as is necessary, and as little as is possible" ( QUOTE attributed to =A. G. Maisey.) be placed under the Tittle.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[RDGAC]

Sorry to perform a bit of Thread Necromancy, everyone, but what's the score on this idea? Have there been discussions; has any progress been made? For what it's worth, I like the concept a lot; it'd be a shame if it faded into the background again.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Sorry to perform a bit of Thread Necromancy, everyone, but what's the score on this idea? Have there been discussions; has any progress been made? For what it's worth, I like the concept a lot; it'd be a shame if it faded into the background again.

I second these thoughts. I hope this comes to fruition. Thanks, Rick.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by rickystl

I second these thoughts. I hope this comes to fruition. Thanks, Rick.

Salaams, Im certain that everyone agrees and even if it was an alphabetical Index which forumites could add to gradually ~ later it could be expanded. I would wager that most items appearing in the forum have had some form of restoration work applied even basic cleaning and oiling... I feel that a simple "add to index" would take the strain off moderator involvement. This could even just be a thread.. Look at Jims thread on blade marks ... its collosal in terms of readership and importance to the forum... Why not just open another what I would term Superthread called Restoration... and see how that fills up...?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[RDGAC]

Second that suggestion. The thread could simply be an index, to which members would be trusted to add useful links. Moderator involvement would still be necessary in order to incorporate the various sub-threads into a Table of Contents in the first post, but if the members post links in the body of the threads itself then not only is the workload of the Mods considerably reduced (owing to the links' concentration therein), but any suggestions which don't make the ToC are still easily located by those seeking them.

Best,

Meredydd

[laEspadaAncha]

I look forward to benefitting form this repository of knowledge, and graciously thank those who have committed their time to this effort.

Would this thread be the best place to make suggestions for the consideration of the members working on this project? I am sure there are many of us who, while not involved in this project, might have suggestions pertaining to content or structure that would add value...

[katana]

Gentlemen,
I believe this idea is a very good one....but I have reservations. Numerous Techniques of restoration are the same as 'manufacture', which may help the 'fakers' or those that 'dress-up' less valuable weapons for profit. We could end up passing useful information to these individuals.

I believe that this information should be protected by limiting access ....ie members only and perhaps a 'minimum' number of postings before access. This would help limit viewing to potential fakers and perhaps more inexperienced collectors whom may 'unwittingly' attempt restoration on a 'significant' piece.

Kind Regards David

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by katana

Gentlemen,
I believe this idea is a very good one....but I have reservations. Numerous Techniques of restoration are the same as 'manufacture', which may help the 'fakers' or those that 'dress-up' less valuable weapons for profit. We could end up passing useful information to these individuals.

I believe that this information should be protected by limiting access ....ie members only and perhaps a 'minimum' number of postings before access. This would help limit viewing to potential fakers and perhaps more inexperienced collectors whom may 'unwittingly' attempt restoration on a 'significant' piece.

Kind Regards David

Salaams, Thats a fair one. It could be done like that or similar.. No one likes throwing away trade secrets thats true.. Minimum postings access is a clever addition. Perhaps we can get this up and running as a pilot scheme and reassess it after 3 months/ 6 months... Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[RDGAC]

Originally Posted by katana

Gentlemen,
I believe this idea is a very good one....but I have reservations. Numerous Techniques of restoration are the same as 'manufacture', which may help the 'fakers' or those that 'dress-up' less valuable weapons for profit. We could end up passing useful information to these individuals.

I believe that this information should be protected by limiting access ....ie members only and perhaps a 'minimum' number of postings before access. This would help limit viewing to potential fakers and perhaps more inexperienced collectors whom may 'unwittingly' attempt restoration on a 'significant' piece.

Kind Regards David

A fair concern, David, but I suspect (sadly) that any "trade secrets" held on this board are already out in the hands of fakers and charlatans anyway; this being a public forum, it's hardly the sort of place where security is particularly tight. I admit that this thread would effectively put all the eggs in one easy-to-reach basket, however; perhaps, if the security concern is paramount, we could do as suggested above.

A password-protected sub-forum is an obvious solution, which has only the debit points of increased Moderator workload and restrictiveness to consider. Unfortunately, whilst I'm no philosopher, I worry that restricting access to such information would perhaps be a betrayal of what I can best term the spirit of this forum; is it not here that the curious, the learners, and the lucky owners of antique arms, may benefit from the knowledge herein regardless of whether or not they elect to join up?

It seems a pity to close the doors to our library.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by katana

Gentlemen,
I believe this idea is a very good one....but I have reservations. Numerous Techniques of restoration are the same as 'manufacture', which may help the 'fakers' or those that 'dress-up' less valuable weapons for profit. We could end up passing useful information to these individuals.

I believe that this information should be protected by limiting access ....ie members only and perhaps a 'minimum' number of postings before access. This would help limit viewing to potential fakers and perhaps more inexperienced collectors whom may 'unwittingly' attempt restoration on a 'significant' piece.

Kind Regards David

The first paragraph above of David's Post is exactly my concern, as in my Post #9 of this Thread.
I think it would be fair to say that at some stage we have all come across signs of grinding wheels and excessive cleaning. While this might be what a non collector is happy with to hang on the wall for decoration, it is not what the average collector will generally tolerate. Often a nice original piece which would have had an age patina has been ruined. Items like this DO come up for sale from various quarters regularly.
Perhaps (if this idea proceeds) some guides as to how to identify this practice could be included.
Regards Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

A fair concern, David, but I suspect (sadly) that any "trade secrets" held on this board are already out in the hands of fakers and charlatans anyway; this being a public forum, it's hardly the sort of place where security is particularly tight. I admit that this thread would effectively put all the eggs in one easy-to-reach basket, however; perhaps, if the security concern is paramount, we could do as suggested above.

A password-protected sub-forum is an obvious solution, which has only the debit points of increased Moderator workload and restrictiveness to consider. Unfortunately, whilst I'm no philosopher, I worry that restricting access to such information would perhaps be a betrayal of what I can best term the spirit of this forum; is it not here that the curious, the learners, and the lucky owners of antique arms, may benefit from the knowledge herein regardless of whether or not they elect to join up?

It seems a pity to close the doors to our library.

"do as much as is necessary, and as little as is possible"

Salaams

~Well put !! Perhaps a modicum of security would suffice though I'm with you on the spirit of the forum absolutely.

Fakers are like poachers : expert in creating the desired effect through good field craft skills consequently I dont think we are going to teach that fraternity anything since I suspect they already know it. On the contrary it is many of the skills of the faker that we are after, though, for a different reason. (Some of the best art fakes are made by expert art restorers).

Most forum articles have a degree of restoration attached to them therefor it is an important part of the entire specialisation but the problem is how to set it up ? For minimum maintenance I suggest a mega thread similar to the blade mark issue set up by Jim onto which every contributor simply pours their tried and tested tips ideas on restoration. Perhaps when it achieves about 20,000 inputs it can be logically reorganised unless there is a clever way of alphabetic organising from the get go..

It only requires the techniques and tips not neccessarily the full blown restoration on for example a 400 year old cannon barrel since that would go to forum as normal... Just the specific ideas technique\s and tips is what we need on anything from basic cleaning to rust removal and polishing.

I just found an excellent leather nourishing product from an old source in the UK MADE BY BEES ! It is superb and we use it on all our equestrian leather, tack etc Its great on Terrs shields, scabbards, bayonet and sword frogs and bodrics etc RENAPUR (TYPE INTO COMPUTER SEARCH) Marvellous !!

To give the finished leather article a polish up just buff with a dry cloth and vaseline. Vaseline !! Theres a simple tip !!

Tips for shifting rust off blades can be graded ... I mean the most non invasive thing to do is nothing... except oil the blade; but what is the next least invasive technique ? Coka cola(1) (how long?) and the next? aluminium rubbing (2) (brilliant trick) and the next? lemon salt(3) and the next? the lightest abrasive(4) and the next etc etc ~ So that a logical sequence can be viewed by novices and experienced players alike however it comes down to experience so that the more advanced can go straight to say technique (8) and work back to (0) leap frogging techniques as they see fit whilst less experienced learners can move slowly through the techniques and so on...

It certainly does not replace the forum discussion on various restoration projects moreover it enhances the process ~ I mean hardly anyone would start messing with a wootz blade if they didnt know the workshop techniques and the advice on highly specialised stuff like that to beginners is going to always be "preserve don't invade". Preservation wax or Sewing Machine Oil and a clean cloth. Even after wiping the blade off with a clean cloth Japanese sword masters throw away the cloth. ( That was another tip)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams, Perhaps the simplest way to move forward is to make this subject a STICKY ?

Regards,

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, Perhaps the simplest way to move forward is to make this subject a STICKY ?

Regards,

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Hi Ibrahiim,
While the topic of restoration is indeed of considerable interest and of course, importance to many on the collecting community, it is, along with the production of reproduction weapons far from the theme of discussions here.
I am not a collector, but a historian, and actually the maintainance and general cleaning etc. of weapons often detracts from pursuing important discussion pertaining to the historical features of the weapon at hand.

I think it is preferable that sharing tips and advice on these attentions to weapons should be handled via private contact to those members who are interested, not only to keep focus on discussion topics but to avoid repurcussions from advice which may prove faulty, and inadvertantly costly if a weapon should end up compromised.

I hope you will understand that this is not to diminish the importance of careful and conservative restoration of weapons, quite the contrary, but that these matters are better addressed at an ad hoc level rather than on a specialized venue.

All very best regards,
Jim

[RDGAC]

Jim,

With all due deference, I disagree. Speaking both personally and professionally, my prime use of this site has been to accumulate information on care for the arms in my care; while I have an acute interest in their history, the first priority must always be their preservation. Once they are stable, and their further degeneration has been guarded against, the all-important matter of research can be attended to. The first priority must always be to maintain the weapon's integrity; it's bloody hard work, trying to do research on something you can't see!

I do see your point regarding the importance of the history of our various artefacts; however, I'm not at all in favour of what sounds strangely like a banishment of that discussion to the realms of ad-hoc inter-personal correspondence. Such an approach encourages inefficiency and duplication of effort, while reducing the number of sources readily accessible by the community's members.

A centralised resource, as well as allowing the ready dissemination of this information (coming from numerous sources) would also encourage the consolidation of queries relating to the care and restoration of weapons in one area. It in no way need detract, or distract, from historical discussions on the forum; indeed, so far as I can see, it may make a valuable contribution to them. Have not men cared for their prized machines of war through the centuries? I note that the stock of my latest jezail, though plain in aspect compared to many of its kin, retains some traces of paint; was that paint applied, or touched up, by some long-forgotten Afghan warrior, squinting in the dying daylight as he patiently wielded his brush?

Probably not. But asking "how do I keep it there" in no way prevents me from also asking, "why is it there?"

[Jim McDougall]

Points well taken RDG, and you are of course absolutely right, it is great to have interaction from professionals like yourself and many others who are professionally involved in the care and preservation of these weapons. My main focus was toward concerns about repurcussions which might result from faulty advice given by individuals inadvertantly causing damage or compromise in a subject weapon.

It is well understood that authors of posts here are responsible for the material or comments they present, however in a public venue such as this a distinct location specifically for dissemination and exchange of such specialized and potentially intricate activity as restoration could be construed as officially endorsed commentary. This would easily fall under the umbrella involving legal advice, appraisals or valuations etc.

I should have worded my comments better, and as you know, I understand completely what you mean about preserving these arms and any part of material history from further detioration or damage. I simply think that questions and comments on these matters should continue in context status quo, and that the current standard of presentation is satisfactory. I think that the 'search' feature provided will provide ready access to past notes the same as it does in finding discussed material on certain weapon forms, and I very much encourage members and readers to use that.

I would like to reword my comments concerning conversation included in discussion of historical weapons that pertains to restoration in progress and note that is often integral in examination and observation on the weapon.
I would recommend here that suggestions or tips added by the post author should include a disclaiming statement as a caveat and reminder that there are many variables which should be considered in following the process or materials used in following noted directions.
I am sure you agree that restoration and cleaning should be carried out responsibly and carefully, and that was one of my concerns along with the possible repurcussions....not that weapons should not be conserved.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention so that I might clarify and better express my comments, as well as reminding me of the outstanding work you have performed on the weapons you have presented here. Outstanding work!!!

All my very best regards,
Jim

[DaveA]

I am a collector and participant in the forums. I eagerly seek out any and all information I can find on the items in my collection. I know next to nothing about restoration. My primary concern is cleaning and care.

I would very much like to see a sub-forum devoted to advice on such topics as have been discussed in this thread earlier.

Moderated -- but with a light hand. Remember that there are many people here with varying degrees of wisdom, concerns and so forth. What makes these forums so valuable is not just an individual post, but the give and take. Out of the discussion emerges wisdom, whether it be consensus or awareness of multiple points of view. My point is that any given topic will, over time, be "self-corrective" because of all the knowledge and experience that is pooled.

Final point -- what is done with an item is really up to the owner. Each of us WILL clean or oil or otherwise maintain items in our collection, as we see fit, to the best of our knowledge. It is incumbent on the community that is interested in preserving these arms that everyone has the best available information. The absence of good advice is likely to have negative consequences for preservation of our treasures. The presence of good advice can only help.

Thanks for the chance to comment.

- Dave A.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams,
So far the general feed back looks very good and in favour of being set up, perhaps, under the banner Restoration and Preservation? It can be enhanced with the logo "do as much as is necessary, and as little as is possible" plus the added safety caveat outlined by Jim so there is no liability etc. It would make a suitable Sticky until a better idea is formulated.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[RDGAC]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Points well taken RDG, and you are of course absolutely right, it is great to have interaction from professionals like yourself and many others who are professionally involved in the care and preservation of these weapons. My main focus was toward concerns about repurcussions which might result from faulty advice given by individuals inadvertantly causing damage or compromise in a subject weapon.

It is well understood that authors of posts here are responsible for the material or comments they present, however in a public venue such as this a distinct location specifically for dissemination and exchange of such specialized and potentially intricate activity as restoration could be construed as officially endorsed commentary. This would easily fall under the umbrella involving legal advice, appraisals or valuations etc.

I should have worded my comments better, and as you know, I understand completely what you mean about preserving these arms and any part of material history from further detioration or damage. I simply think that questions and comments on these matters should continue in context status quo, and that the current standard of presentation is satisfactory. I think that the 'search' feature provided will provide ready access to past notes the same as it does in finding discussed material on certain weapon forms, and I very much encourage members and readers to use that.

I would like to reword my comments concerning conversation included in discussion of historical weapons that pertains to restoration in progress and note that is often integral in examination and observation on the weapon.
I would recommend here that suggestions or tips added by the post author should include a disclaiming statement as a caveat and reminder that there are many variables which should be considered in following the process or materials used in following noted directions.
I am sure you agree that restoration and cleaning should be carried out responsibly and carefully, and that was one of my concerns along with the possible repurcussions....not that weapons should not be conserved.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention so that I might clarify and better express my comments, as well as reminding me of the outstanding work you have performed on the weapons you have presented here. Outstanding work!!!

All my very best regards,
Jim

Jim,

To be quite honest, I'd never even considered the legal aspect of this suggestion. Unfortunately - and with the best will in the world - I lay the blame for the modern litigation culture of the West squarely at the doors of Washington! Anyway, facetiousness aside, I do take your point on the legal business very seriously. It's testament to my naiveté that it never crossed my mind. I should, however, think that an overarching disclaimer, applied to the forum (perhaps in the form of a Sticky thread at the very top of its page), might suffice to safeguard our proverbial behinds. "Any and all information, suggestions or opinions provided on this forum are provided strictly on a non-advice basis and if you make a pig's ear of it, well, it's your own damn fault" might work?

Regarding the current standard, I agree that the information is, on the whole, fairly adequate - where the question has been asked, and answered, heretofore. Where it has not, a thread usually forms, concludes, and then vanishes into the ether. I believe that the concentration of such information, as suggested herein, will not only improve the ease and efficiency with which access to this information can be gained, but encourage still greater improvements in learning and in quality of information available. I'm expecting, to use a clichéd phrase, the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts.

Informedly yours,

Meredydd

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Jim,

To be quite honest, I'd never even considered the legal aspect of this suggestion. Unfortunately - and with the best will in the world - I lay the blame for the modern litigation culture of the West squarely at the doors of Washington! Anyway, facetiousness aside, I do take your point on the legal business very seriously. It's testament to my naiveté that it never crossed my mind. I should, however, think that an overarching disclaimer, applied to the forum (perhaps in the form of a Sticky thread at the very top of its page), might suffice to safeguard our proverbial behinds. "Any and all information, suggestions or opinions provided on this forum are provided strictly on a non-advice basis and if you make a pig's ear of it, well, it's your own damn fault" might work?

Regarding the current standard, I agree that the information is, on the whole, fairly adequate - where the question has been asked, and answered, heretofore. Where it has not, a thread usually forms, concludes, and then vanishes into the ether. I believe that the concentration of such information, as suggested herein, will not only improve the ease and efficiency with which access to this information can be gained, but encourage still greater improvements in learning and in quality of information available. I'm expecting, to use a clichéd phrase, the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts.

Informedly yours,

Meredydd

Salaams, The question remains ... Would this make a relevant topic to carry forward as a sticky or classic thread... I suggest that it should. Ibrahiim

[RDGAC]

Seconded, and preferably ASAP. If this idea's going to work out well it'll need thinking upon and maturing, but at least we can get started, and make people aware that it's "opening for business" before long.

[Lew]

Hi Guys

First I want to thank you all for your input on this subject but this is how I see it. I really see no reason to clutter up the page with yet another sticky on restorations. I just went into our search section and typed in the word "restoration" and all the threads that contained anything on restorations popped up. So all the information you need is at your finger tips. Please feel free to keep posting any and all restorations of items you have in your collections.

Thanks

Lew


Lead Ethnographic Moderator

[Jens Nordlunde]

Very well said Lew, I fully agree.
Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Very well said Lew, I fully agree.
Jens

Salaams,

I dont agree! A properly managed restoration library would enhance the Forum... Despite having an excellent search key this does not replace what would otherwise be an excellent research sticky. Bring it all under one roof!

Where there is clutter is in photographs where there are 3 stickys that could easily be telescoped into one sticky thread called, say, Forum Photos.

I think more thought ought to be invested in how best to tackle the problem of Restoration as simply reverting to the search key is rather like throwing out the baby in the bath water..no?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.