Osborn's G Stamp - Page 2

Bryce · 12th April 2020, 11:31 PM

G'day Guys,
Just a quick update on my latest research on Osborn's G stamp. I have looked at many more blades and it is still true that all Osborn marked officers' swords and virtually all Osborn and Gunby marked officers' swords are stamped G or GG.

There is an interesting sword coming up for auction at Morphy Auctions in America. It is an American silver hilted spadroon with a blade marked to R Bolton and Co with a G stamp. The hilt has the Birmingham silver marks for 1805.

I have never come across a British sword marked to Bolton, so it seems that if Bolton made sword blades, he only did so for the American market which would be odd! A look thru the Birmingham trade directories for this period reveals the following results:

There was an RP Bolton, Gunsmith who pops up from time to time around this period.
There was a JH Bolton, Gun maker and occasional cutler consistently around this period
There was a Richard Bolton and Co, Merchant consistently thru this period.

Based on this and the absence of British marked Bolton swords the most likely explanation is that the R Bolton and Co marked American swords were put together using Osborn sword blades and exported to America by R Bolton and Co the merchants. I am unsure if Bolton and Co used Osborn blades exclusively or sourced them from several makers. If Bolton marked swords without a G stamp exist it means that Bolton and Co sourced blades from several makers.

This particular G stamp looks to be somewhere in Between the earlier Osborn G stamp with serifs and the later Osborn and Gunby G stamp sans serif. I don't know if the change in G stamp was intentional or just came about by the older G stamp tools wearing out around the time of the change from Osborn to Osborn and Gunby.

Cheers,
Bryce

Hotspur · 14th April 2020, 01:42 AM

More likely, the blade itself may have come from Osborn. In post #10 of this thread, I attached a series of images with a blade with a G and the eagle type known to be Bolton's. There are also some other distinctive etching that can be seen from more than one "producer".

Then in post #25, a sword not marked to Osborn with a G marked blade.

If I posted a Woolley&Deakin marked blade with an Americanized eagle head pommel sword, would I attribute the whole to Woolley&Deakin? Or conceptualize that blades were a commodity?

Cheers
GC

Bryce · 14th April 2020, 05:38 AM

G'day GC,
I completely agree. The blade is by Osborn, I am not suggesting the hilt must also be by Osborn.
Cheers,
Bryce

Hotspur · 23rd January 2022, 06:39 PM

I've been meaning to add this one, also sold by Shiloh Relics back in 2020. A blade marked with O and G and something else. Looks like an 1803 type blade on a Bolton type slotted hilt eagle pommel.

Cheers
GC

Bryce · 23rd January 2022, 10:29 PM

G'day GC,
Thanks for posting this. The first stamp could be an O or maybe another G? Not sure what the other mark is.
I have discovered that prior to 1796, Henry Osborn was marking his blades with a crown over HO mark. Thanks to Henry Yallop, I know the royal armouries has several swords which have the crown HO mark on the ricasso and H Osborn stamped on the tang. These markings are found on swords of the type shown in the middle of the photo below. I also have an early 1796 LC officer's sabre with what looks like the same crown stamp low on the ricasso and have seen another 1796LC with a crown HO stamp. This leads me to believe that the change from the crown HO stamp to the G stamp occurred around 1796.
Cheers,
Bryce

JoeCanada42 · 25th February 2023, 11:01 PM

the mystery deepens

JoeCanada42 · 25th February 2023, 11:13 PM

G. For Galle Ceylon,

the G mark was done like the Dutch company office marks?

British took over about the time frame in question.

JoeCanada42 · 26th February 2023, 07:35 PM

some coins, with G, with and without serif, seen some with S, some with I, some with number 12....

Bryce · 27th February 2023, 12:00 AM

G'day Joe,
Way outside my area of expertise, but the G on the Dutch klewang blade? you posted is part of a larger marking and unrelated to the G stamp used by Osborn. Hope someone else can shed some light on the use of the letters on the VOC coins.
Cheers,
Bryce

JoeCanada42 · 27th February 2023, 02:09 AM

well the letter marks on the coins are from the mint locations that is explained.
the Dutch letter marks were otherwise associated with Dutch offices in the companies colonies. I will find the info I found and post it....

as for the sword I posted a Dutch Klewang?!, thanks for that bit of info,
but isn't it a bit atypical ?, id say more Mandau then Dutch, certainly a hybrid of a sort, the handle and tip being Mandau style...

the other marks with my G what do you think they were for or associated with? could they not be added or inscribed earlier?

I'm not necessarily saying the G on my sword is an Osborn mark, but I wont rule it out.
I am postulating it is an acquisition mark, British company bought out the bankrupt Dutch and sent stock home for sale?
or maybe swords made by Osborn intended for officers stationed in Galle received this mark. ?

when did the origin of the Klewang style start? and with who?

the G is exactly the same as the Osborn marks,, but not the coins,

And maybe Osborn had a reason or desire to make a klewang / mandau style sword blade?
one theory I have supports yours but implies my blade to be older , the other kind of says its not really a G associated with Osborn but with Galle. I'm thinking most likely as acquisition mark not export destination.

Bryce · 27th February 2023, 04:04 AM

G'day Joe,
When I said Dutch klewang I was referring only to the blade. As you pointed out the rest looks to be South-East Asian. I am only assuming the blade is European because of the letters stamped on it. The G stamp is only part of a larger marking. The rest has been worn away and isn't legible any more. If it is a Dutch klewang blade, maybe there is someone on the forum who may be able to decipher what it used to say. I don't know anything about klewangs, but I am sure there is someone here who does. Osborn's G stamp is only found on officers' swords, not on munition grade blades. It is also stamped low on the ricasso, not in the position or orientation of the blade you have posted. I think it is very unlikely this blade has anything to do with Osborn.
Cheers,
Bryce

Hey Joe I just saw the other thread you have on this and can see where you are coming from now.

JoeCanada42 · 27th February 2023, 07:14 PM

thanks Byrce, hopefully we can get some more help.

JoeCanada42 · 27th February 2023, 11:38 PM

another G

12th April 2020, 11:31 PM	#31
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day Guys, Just a quick update on my latest research on Osborn's G stamp. I have looked at many more blades and it is still true that all Osborn marked officers' swords and virtually all Osborn and Gunby marked officers' swords are stamped G or GG. There is an interesting sword coming up for auction at Morphy Auctions in America. It is an American silver hilted spadroon with a blade marked to R Bolton and Co with a G stamp. The hilt has the Birmingham silver marks for 1805. I have never come across a British sword marked to Bolton, so it seems that if Bolton made sword blades, he only did so for the American market which would be odd! A look thru the Birmingham trade directories for this period reveals the following results: There was an RP Bolton, Gunsmith who pops up from time to time around this period. There was a JH Bolton, Gun maker and occasional cutler consistently around this period There was a Richard Bolton and Co, Merchant consistently thru this period. Based on this and the absence of British marked Bolton swords the most likely explanation is that the R Bolton and Co marked American swords were put together using Osborn sword blades and exported to America by R Bolton and Co the merchants. I am unsure if Bolton and Co used Osborn blades exclusively or sourced them from several makers. If Bolton marked swords without a G stamp exist it means that Bolton and Co sourced blades from several makers. This particular G stamp looks to be somewhere in Between the earlier Osborn G stamp with serifs and the later Osborn and Gunby G stamp sans serif. I don't know if the change in G stamp was intentional or just came about by the older G stamp tools wearing out around the time of the change from Osborn to Osborn and Gunby. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

23rd January 2022, 06:39 PM	#34
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	I've been meaning to add this one, also sold by Shiloh Relics back in 2020. A blade marked with O and G and something else. Looks like an 1803 type blade on a Bolton type slotted hilt eagle pommel. Cheers GC Attached Images

23rd January 2022, 10:29 PM	#35
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day GC, Thanks for posting this. The first stamp could be an O or maybe another G? Not sure what the other mark is. I have discovered that prior to 1796, Henry Osborn was marking his blades with a crown over HO mark. Thanks to Henry Yallop, I know the royal armouries has several swords which have the crown HO mark on the ricasso and H Osborn stamped on the tang. These markings are found on swords of the type shown in the middle of the photo below. I also have an early 1796 LC officer's sabre with what looks like the same crown stamp low on the ricasso and have seen another 1796LC with a crown HO stamp. This leads me to believe that the change from the crown HO stamp to the G stamp occurred around 1796. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

25th February 2023, 11:01 PM	#36
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	the mystery deepens Attached Images

26th February 2023, 07:35 PM	#38
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	some coins, with G, with and without serif, seen some with S, some with I, some with number 12.... Attached Images

14th April 2020, 01:42 AM	#32
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	More likely, the blade itself may have come from Osborn. In post #10 of this thread, I attached a series of images with a blade with a G and the eagle type known to be Bolton's. There are also some other distinctive etching that can be seen from more than one "producer". Then in post #25, a sword not marked to Osborn with a G marked blade. If I posted a Woolley&Deakin marked blade with an Americanized eagle head pommel sword, would I attribute the whole to Woolley&Deakin? Or conceptualize that blades were a commodity? Cheers GC

14th April 2020, 05:38 AM	#33
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day GC, I completely agree. The blade is by Osborn, I am not suggesting the hilt must also be by Osborn. Cheers, Bryce

25th February 2023, 11:13 PM	#37
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	G. For Galle Ceylon, the G mark was done like the Dutch company office marks? British took over about the time frame in question.

27th February 2023, 12:00 AM	#39
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day Joe, Way outside my area of expertise, but the G on the Dutch klewang blade? you posted is part of a larger marking and unrelated to the G stamp used by Osborn. Hope someone else can shed some light on the use of the letters on the VOC coins. Cheers, Bryce

27th February 2023, 02:09 AM	#40
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	well the letter marks on the coins are from the mint locations that is explained. the Dutch letter marks were otherwise associated with Dutch offices in the companies colonies. I will find the info I found and post it.... as for the sword I posted a Dutch Klewang?!, thanks for that bit of info, but isn't it a bit atypical ?, id say more Mandau then Dutch, certainly a hybrid of a sort, the handle and tip being Mandau style... the other marks with my G what do you think they were for or associated with? could they not be added or inscribed earlier? I'm not necessarily saying the G on my sword is an Osborn mark, but I wont rule it out. I am postulating it is an acquisition mark, British company bought out the bankrupt Dutch and sent stock home for sale? or maybe swords made by Osborn intended for officers stationed in Galle received this mark. ? when did the origin of the Klewang style start? and with who? the G is exactly the same as the Osborn marks,, but not the coins, And maybe Osborn had a reason or desire to make a klewang / mandau style sword blade? one theory I have supports yours but implies my blade to be older , the other kind of says its not really a G associated with Osborn but with Galle. I'm thinking most likely as acquisition mark not export destination.

27th February 2023, 04:04 AM	#41
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day Joe, When I said Dutch klewang I was referring only to the blade. As you pointed out the rest looks to be South-East Asian. I am only assuming the blade is European because of the letters stamped on it. The G stamp is only part of a larger marking. The rest has been worn away and isn't legible any more. If it is a Dutch klewang blade, maybe there is someone on the forum who may be able to decipher what it used to say. I don't know anything about klewangs, but I am sure there is someone here who does. Osborn's G stamp is only found on officers' swords, not on munition grade blades. It is also stamped low on the ricasso, not in the position or orientation of the blade you have posted. I think it is very unlikely this blade has anything to do with Osborn. Cheers, Bryce Hey Joe I just saw the other thread you have on this and can see where you are coming from now. Attached Images Last edited by Bryce; 27th February 2023 at 08:52 AM.

27th February 2023, 07:14 PM	#42
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	thanks Byrce, hopefully we can get some more help.

27th February 2023, 11:38 PM	#43
JoeCanada42 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Canada Posts: 259	another G Attached Images