Luzon Bolo With Wootz Blade! - Page 2

Lew · 25th August 2005, 11:13 PM

Hi Guys

I spoke with Al Pendray today he saw the pictures and thinks it is Indian wootz and he agrees it wasn't forged from a billet to him it seems the blade was reworked from a larger sword blade.

Lew

RSWORD · 26th August 2005, 03:20 AM

This is a blade I would love to see in person. I do hope you have an opportunity to take it with you to the Ashokan seminar so that several people can have a close look at it. It is always better to form a firm opinion from something like this in person versus in pictures. At this time, I still remain skeptical and do not believe it to be wootz but I would love to see it in person and change my mind. If it is a reworked blade, I am curious as to what the spine of the blade looks like. Does it show any evidence of lamellar activity or the typical "cleft" one often finds on wootz blades?

ibeam · 28th August 2005, 05:11 PM

Hello All and thank you for all your post and interest on this bolo.

I understand how unlikely a wootz blade would be found on a Filipino sword and let alone on a tagalog blade of Christian region. The patterning on the blade is very tight and never seen it before on any Filipino sandata. Lew was skeptical as well when I told him about it. This was the reason why I brought it over to have him take a closer look at it.

The blade is chisel ground. The patterning is only visible on the beveled side and not visible on the flat side.

The blade was previously etched and Lew did a light etch on it with FeCl.

Unfortunately, I cannot make it to Ashokan and have asked Lew if he could bring this bolo with him. Hopefully many of you could get a chance to look at it in person and give a more definite conclusion.

Here are a few more pics. This is the best I can do with the camera that I have.

Ian · 6th September 2005, 02:36 AM

Any update for us on this one?

Ian.

Lew · 6th September 2005, 02:55 AM

Ian

I will be taking the bolo to Ashokan Dr. Ann will able able to look at and let us know what she thinks.

Lew

Ian · 19th September 2005, 09:16 PM

Hi Lew. Good to see you are back from Ashokan. What was the final verdict?

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Ian

I will be taking the bolo to Ashokan Dr. Ann will able able to look at and let us know what she thinks.

Lew

Lew · 19th September 2005, 10:36 PM

Ian

The experts thinks its a very high quality pattern welded blade but they couldn't explain why they see both pattern welding in one area and a wootz pattern in another? They said if I just showed them a picture of the wootzy area they would swear it was wootz but they spotted a fine pattern welding near the hilt.

Lew

Gt Obach · 20th September 2005, 01:50 AM

some wootz blades have the steel tang welded on... this maybe the case?

its a hard to tell whether this is banding or wootz... but it does look good no matter what it is... I think only a full etch of the blade will give us a true look at the steel..... but then the mystery is lost...

I'd keep it the way it is ...

Greg

stevomiller · 21st September 2005, 06:32 AM

Normally I do not get involved in such things, and prefer to just look at the pretty pictures and dream of the things that I wish were mine

, BUT......

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

It is very difficult to tell from the pictures but I think Ian is right on the money in that this is some unusual crystallization from the heat treatment of the blade. Sometimes old pieces of metal that would be used for making blades, ie very old railroad track, from the years of use when forged out would have an unusually high amount of carbon......but rather the railroad rails which due to age and heavy wear created a high carbon steel. What is wootz steel. A high carbon steel....many smiths over the years adding old, well used horse shoes and handmade nails to their forging process which in effect increased the carbon content in the finished product.

Unfortunately, this is not how it works. The carbon content of steel does not increase due to workhardening or wear, even with something as big and heavy as a locomotive beating on it. Also, most old horse shoes were made of wrought iron or low carbon steel. Yes, rairoad rails can be used many times for making tools and knives because they are usually of sufficient carbon to be hardened, but not always.

However, you are correct in stating that you can often times find interesting patterns in high carbon steels that are neither pattern welded nor wootz type steels.

Sincerely,
Steve

Ian · 22nd September 2005, 01:57 AM

Just to summarize the thoughts here for my own clarity. I think Lew has presented an intriguing piece for discussion, but we have no firm evidence that this blade is true wootz, as might have come from India about 200 years ago. Rather this blade appears to be an unusal laminated construction, perhaps with some odd crystallization in places.

Ian.

Battara · 22nd September 2005, 06:37 AM

Well summerized Ian.

bathala · 17th July 2023, 12:17 AM

To re open this thread I would like to contribute a pic of these peice. Olso a luzon. Im still uncertain but it looks like sham wootz. Still need to finish polish but I hope this can help more with the discussion

Gavin Nugent · 17th July 2023, 06:40 AM

This is interesting subject matter.

I recall similar back and forth I had on an Amanremu from the Kelling Hall Collection.

It was with what looked to be a three bar steel construction with typical scarf welding found on many Tulwar that have a root of non wootz and a blade of Wootz... image attached.

I'm still not convinced either way where the Amanremu concerned. I like to think it shows all the qualities of a scarf welded wootz blade when only the inserted edge is wootz and the smith did his best...and I cast my mind to a heirloom Tulwar here with an old Persian blade. It has a black wootz blade and what looks to be a very clear sham wootz inserted edge experly sandwiched within the black wootz...so anything is possible.

I am truly bewildered where with example in discussion is concerned... I look at sections in isolation and think there is potential given the smiths knowledge and abilities and that it is not something they would have worked with very often... but could certainly have obtained at some point in time... then I look at it over all in context and it reminds me of some very tight pattern welded barong blades I've seen, and some aspects I have seen on very fine pattern Welded Kukri too...
I think the definitive answer lays in more detailed testing as it could have been all down to the smith who just didn't quite nail it as it was not a common material choice...

28th August 2005, 05:11 PM	#33
ibeam Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 134	More Pics Hello All and thank you for all your post and interest on this bolo. I understand how unlikely a wootz blade would be found on a Filipino sword and let alone on a tagalog blade of Christian region. The patterning on the blade is very tight and never seen it before on any Filipino sandata. Lew was skeptical as well when I told him about it. This was the reason why I brought it over to have him take a closer look at it. The blade is chisel ground. The patterning is only visible on the beveled side and not visible on the flat side. The blade was previously etched and Lew did a light etch on it with FeCl. Unfortunately, I cannot make it to Ashokan and have asked Lew if he could bring this bolo with him. Hopefully many of you could get a chance to look at it in person and give a more definite conclusion. Here are a few more pics. This is the best I can do with the camera that I have. Attached Images

17th July 2023, 12:17 AM	#42
bathala Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 40	To re open this thread I would like to contribute a pic of these peice. Olso a luzon. Im still uncertain but it looks like sham wootz. Still need to finish polish but I hope this can help more with the discussion Attached Images

17th July 2023, 06:40 AM	#43
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	An interesting topic This is interesting subject matter. I recall similar back and forth I had on an Amanremu from the Kelling Hall Collection. It was with what looked to be a three bar steel construction with typical scarf welding found on many Tulwar that have a root of non wootz and a blade of Wootz... image attached. I'm still not convinced either way where the Amanremu concerned. I like to think it shows all the qualities of a scarf welded wootz blade when only the inserted edge is wootz and the smith did his best...and I cast my mind to a heirloom Tulwar here with an old Persian blade. It has a black wootz blade and what looks to be a very clear sham wootz inserted edge experly sandwiched within the black wootz...so anything is possible. I am truly bewildered where with example in discussion is concerned... I look at sections in isolation and think there is potential given the smiths knowledge and abilities and that it is not something they would have worked with very often... but could certainly have obtained at some point in time... then I look at it over all in context and it reminds me of some very tight pattern welded barong blades I've seen, and some aspects I have seen on very fine pattern Welded Kukri too... I think the definitive answer lays in more detailed testing as it could have been all down to the smith who just didn't quite nail it as it was not a common material choice... Attached Images

25th August 2005, 11:13 PM	#31
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Guys I spoke with Al Pendray today he saw the pictures and thinks it is Indian wootz and he agrees it wasn't forged from a billet to him it seems the blade was reworked from a larger sword blade. Lew

26th August 2005, 03:20 AM	#32
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	This is a blade I would love to see in person. I do hope you have an opportunity to take it with you to the Ashokan seminar so that several people can have a close look at it. It is always better to form a firm opinion from something like this in person versus in pictures. At this time, I still remain skeptical and do not believe it to be wootz but I would love to see it in person and change my mind. If it is a reworked blade, I am curious as to what the spine of the blade looks like. Does it show any evidence of lamellar activity or the typical "cleft" one often finds on wootz blades?

6th September 2005, 02:36 AM	#34
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Any update for us on this one? Ian.

6th September 2005, 02:55 AM	#35
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ian I will be taking the bolo to Ashokan Dr. Ann will able able to look at and let us know what she thinks. Lew

19th September 2005, 10:36 PM	#37
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ian The experts thinks its a very high quality pattern welded blade but they couldn't explain why they see both pattern welding in one area and a wootz pattern in another? They said if I just showed them a picture of the wootzy area they would swear it was wootz but they spotted a fine pattern welding near the hilt. Lew

20th September 2005, 01:50 AM	#38
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	some wootz blades have the steel tang welded on... this maybe the case? its a hard to tell whether this is banding or wootz... but it does look good no matter what it is... I think only a full etch of the blade will give us a true look at the steel..... but then the mystery is lost... I'd keep it the way it is ... Greg

22nd September 2005, 01:57 AM	#40
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Just to summarize the thoughts here for my own clarity. I think Lew has presented an intriguing piece for discussion, but we have no firm evidence that this blade is true wootz, as might have come from India about 200 years ago. Rather this blade appears to be an unusal laminated construction, perhaps with some odd crystallization in places. Ian.

22nd September 2005, 06:37 AM	#41
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Well summerized Ian.