Meteoric Balinese Blog.... - Page 2

A. G. Maisey · 22nd August 2009, 09:34 AM

Yep. I understand that Rick.

lemmythesmith · 22nd August 2009, 09:21 PM

Hi all, thanks for the latest input!!

Hi Michel, the tang is part of the blade not a separate piece screwed in. What you can see is where I have thinned the diameter of the tang a little just after the gongo-it needs a little bit more taking off yet so it's flush with the gongo top, I'll do that just before I final fit the gongo with keyways and wedges.

Hi Alan, please feel free to point out any wavering from Balinese standards. You've got infinitely more experience than me in these matters and know how it should look, so any help and suggestions are most welcome. (I have never even had hold of a Balinese piece!!) I'm working from photos so it's a little like herding cats....... Looking at the greneng I think maybe I have a little too much "curl" on them and need to refine the bottom of the "dha" I'm not really sure whether Balinese blades have gusen? If I can get this piece close to the real thing I'll be more than happy.

Gustav · 22nd August 2009, 11:59 PM

Looking at the greneng I think maybe I have a little too much "curl" on them and need to refine the bottom of the "dha" I'm not really sure whether Balinese blades have gusen? If I can get this piece close to the real thing I'll be more than happy.[/QUOTE]

Hello Lemmy,

I hope this would help a little bit. I have seen some pictures with Pogokan on a Bali keris, but forget where

(one on Oriental-Arms site)

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2009, 01:54 AM

Lemmy I'd like to help you if I could, but to try to give you pointers from photos is close to impossible. What you've produced is excellent, but it is excellent to the extent that I can see in the photos --- I'm only talking about the blade here.

When we hold a good quailty Balinese keris in the hand we can see that everything is contoured to incredibly tiny differences in three dimensions. The differences are so small that even very experienced collectors who have not been educated in the indigenous artistic ethic often cannot see the differences and need to have these differences pointed out to them. I once spent several hours on two consecutive afternoons trying to explain the contouring and form of sogokan on a Surakarta keris. The person I was trying to instruct was a collector of edged weapons, including keris, and an artist and sculptor in his own right. Maybe it was just my inadequacy as a teacher, but it did take a total of probably about 4 or 5 hours before he was able to see and partially understand what I was trying to get across.

Many people in Jawa regard the keris --- ie, keris blade --- as the premier expression of the Javanese plastic arts. This status is not lightly given and to understand why this is so, we must first understand that the keris in art and in tradition, is more than just a dagger blade. When we sculpt a keris blade we must incorporate into that blade a human feeling, a feeling that can be sensed by a person experienced in keris art as a representation of the essence of mankind. When we talk about a keris blade we apply the same descriptors to it that we apply to a human being:- brave, humble, clumsy etc, etc.

Lemmy, when you set out to make a keris blade, you began the creation of more than just another different kind of dagger. For you to understand what you have begun you need to involve yourself in serious study of the subject. If you do not have a thorough understanding of the subject you cannot really create a keris. You can create an expression of your own artistic ability that takes the form of a keris, but cannot create a keris.

What you have achieved so far is excellent work, and as a copy from photos it demonstrates your very considerable ability. But to go further, you need the study to achieve understanding.

lemmythesmith · 23rd August 2009, 04:31 PM

Hi Gustav, thanks for the photo-it’s a clearer example of the form of the greneng, should be of help!!

Hi Alan, thanks for the explanation-yeah, it’s nigh on impossible from a photo to explain the subtle differences, I’ve had similar problems trying to explain the same sort of thing to a friend I’m tutoring in Japanese swordmaking.
I try to study as much as I can, but I think I will have to be satisfied with making “keris like objects” for now! Having said that, I feel that the journey itself is as worthwhile as the finished product, for self improvement/development. My patience level has certainly improved, along with technical ability. If making keris makes me a better person as well as a better smith then it can only be a good thing!!

asomotif · 18th March 2010, 09:36 PM

Hello Lemmy,

How is this one progressing ?

Best regards,
Willem

lemmythesmith · 19th March 2010, 12:27 AM

Hi Willem, I'm afraid I haven't done much recently as I've been busy on other things, I recently bought a huge chunk of buffalo horn for the wrongko......... I'm planning to do some more work on it during summer break when it's a bit hot for forging work but I think this keris will be a long term project!!!

Regards, Graham.

22nd August 2009, 11:59 PM	#33
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Looking at the greneng I think maybe I have a little too much "curl" on them and need to refine the bottom of the "dha" I'm not really sure whether Balinese blades have gusen? If I can get this piece close to the real thing I'll be more than happy.[/QUOTE] Hello Lemmy, I hope this would help a little bit. I have seen some pictures with Pogokan on a Bali keris, but forget where (one on Oriental-Arms site) Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 23rd August 2009 at 12:19 AM.

22nd August 2009, 09:34 AM	#31
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yep. I understand that Rick.

22nd August 2009, 09:21 PM	#32
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi all, thanks for the latest input!! Hi Michel, the tang is part of the blade not a separate piece screwed in. What you can see is where I have thinned the diameter of the tang a little just after the gongo-it needs a little bit more taking off yet so it's flush with the gongo top, I'll do that just before I final fit the gongo with keyways and wedges. Hi Alan, please feel free to point out any wavering from Balinese standards. You've got infinitely more experience than me in these matters and know how it should look, so any help and suggestions are most welcome. (I have never even had hold of a Balinese piece!!) I'm working from photos so it's a little like herding cats....... Looking at the greneng I think maybe I have a little too much "curl" on them and need to refine the bottom of the "dha" I'm not really sure whether Balinese blades have gusen? If I can get this piece close to the real thing I'll be more than happy.

23rd August 2009, 01:54 AM	#34
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Lemmy I'd like to help you if I could, but to try to give you pointers from photos is close to impossible. What you've produced is excellent, but it is excellent to the extent that I can see in the photos --- I'm only talking about the blade here. When we hold a good quailty Balinese keris in the hand we can see that everything is contoured to incredibly tiny differences in three dimensions. The differences are so small that even very experienced collectors who have not been educated in the indigenous artistic ethic often cannot see the differences and need to have these differences pointed out to them. I once spent several hours on two consecutive afternoons trying to explain the contouring and form of sogokan on a Surakarta keris. The person I was trying to instruct was a collector of edged weapons, including keris, and an artist and sculptor in his own right. Maybe it was just my inadequacy as a teacher, but it did take a total of probably about 4 or 5 hours before he was able to see and partially understand what I was trying to get across. Many people in Jawa regard the keris --- ie, keris blade --- as the premier expression of the Javanese plastic arts. This status is not lightly given and to understand why this is so, we must first understand that the keris in art and in tradition, is more than just a dagger blade. When we sculpt a keris blade we must incorporate into that blade a human feeling, a feeling that can be sensed by a person experienced in keris art as a representation of the essence of mankind. When we talk about a keris blade we apply the same descriptors to it that we apply to a human being:- brave, humble, clumsy etc, etc. Lemmy, when you set out to make a keris blade, you began the creation of more than just another different kind of dagger. For you to understand what you have begun you need to involve yourself in serious study of the subject. If you do not have a thorough understanding of the subject you cannot really create a keris. You can create an expression of your own artistic ability that takes the form of a keris, but cannot create a keris. What you have achieved so far is excellent work, and as a copy from photos it demonstrates your very considerable ability. But to go further, you need the study to achieve understanding.

23rd August 2009, 04:31 PM	#35
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Gustav, thanks for the photo-it’s a clearer example of the form of the greneng, should be of help!! Hi Alan, thanks for the explanation-yeah, it’s nigh on impossible from a photo to explain the subtle differences, I’ve had similar problems trying to explain the same sort of thing to a friend I’m tutoring in Japanese swordmaking. I try to study as much as I can, but I think I will have to be satisfied with making “keris like objects” for now! Having said that, I feel that the journey itself is as worthwhile as the finished product, for self improvement/development. My patience level has certainly improved, along with technical ability. If making keris makes me a better person as well as a better smith then it can only be a good thing!!

18th March 2010, 09:36 PM	#36
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Hello Lemmy, How is this one progressing ? Best regards, Willem

19th March 2010, 12:27 AM	#37
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Willem, I'm afraid I haven't done much recently as I've been busy on other things, I recently bought a huge chunk of buffalo horn for the wrongko......... I'm planning to do some more work on it during summer break when it's a bit hot for forging work but I think this keris will be a long term project!!! Regards, Graham.