Talismanic or just randomly placed copper dots - Page 2

kai · 6th September 2008, 01:54 AM

Hello Ron,

Quote:

... or perhaps just a certain blacksmith's method of strengthening the tang?

How would such a construction be stronger than a regular tang?

I've also heard the suggestion that this may have been done with blades where not enough material was left for forming a tang during the original forging. I don't think so: obviously the skill of the bladesmiths was high. Even if your pieces for the sandwich construction were not large enough for a tang, the easiest and stronger solution would still be to take an additional suitable piece of mild steel and weld it between the layers during the sandwich step...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 6th September 2008, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Perhaps this is why we see the talismanic markings many of the "tang repaired" blades.

One more note: I think we still need to verify this assumption: I've seen "plenty" of tang repairs/features on plain blades.

OTOH, talismanic markings seem to come with high quality blades as a rule. Like inlaid blades and twistcore blades, I'm pretty sure they were restricted to owners of high(er) status. Otherwise, you'd expect to see a decent amount of genuine warrior kris with talismanic features...

If there is such a relationship between talismanic features and high quality blades and/or high status, you'd also expect these to be more readily repaired and successfully handed down for generations than run-of-the-mill kris of commoners. Thus, no surprise that a higher proportion of old blades would show such features. Not to mention, that a longer service time also enhances the chance that a repair may be needed eventually...

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 6th September 2008, 02:31 AM

Unfortunately so many kris were destroyed that we may not have enough examples to really determine the why of this phenomenon .

As for an inherent weakness in design; I can't for the life of me understand how the kris tang could fail before the handle/hilt attachments would .

Bill · 6th September 2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

However, AFAIK there's no verified notion (from within Moro culture as well as other SEA cultures) that the tang is anything special which needs to be replaced...

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kia, wasn't thinking this had to do with the tang at all but the area of the sword, the place, where the Jen stays. I don't know where exactly that is but was speculating the little square. & the only way to replace that, would require replacing the tang.
Don't expect to find hard solid rules. Research on mountain tribes in Luzon claims that rituals varied greatly from one clan to the next in the same village.
I haven't paid much attention to which groups these "tang replacements" come from but it strikes me, they are what Cato called cross overs. I believe that the so called cross overs are from the Cotabato areas, but am far from certain if limited to those area.
I've got 3 or 4 of these, I'll have to check for similarities.

Tim Simmons · 6th September 2008, 08:12 PM

I am just thinking aloud here. This thread is heating up which is nice. We are just collectors rather than qualified academics. However we have just the same ability to question and advance our understanding of the present ideas, we can pool so many examples?

This is the only Moro Keris I have but it displays the feature in discussion so well. I am not a blade smith but I would like to suggest that in this example the feature is not a repair or a replacement but all part of the original construction. I can only think by the size of the handle that the tang is short around 3-4 inches. It is also off set not following the centre line of the blade, this helps the weight forward feel in the hand. The short tang is aided by the clamps?

There are two parts to the blade, the blade and the base part. These elements are machted to each other in a very precise manner. I would like to suggest that all three parts blade, base and tang are assembled at the same time. First the blade and base are made to fit and as especially as the tang is off set it is forge welded in place so to accomadate the base element.

I make this only as a suggestion but I do question why every oddity has to be a replacement or a repair. A big question arises, do we see the tang feature in weapons without the seperate base element to the blade?????

I feel if you examine these pics it can be seen as three parts put together at the same time. Possibly this is a regional style? different smiths? possibly with some cultural meaning?

Spunjer · 7th September 2008, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ron,

How would such a construction be stronger than a regular tang?

my bad. after reading my post, it didn't convey what i wanted to say. i really need to start using the Preview Post Button.
what i meant was it coulda been a certain style of kris, that is why i brought up the relative similarity on the decoration found on my kris's handle and kino's asang-asang . as far as how such construction is stronger, i have no clue. heck, i would think a one piece blade rather than separate blade/gangya would be stronger, but evidently the moros of old have something else in mind.
also, if this is a method of repairing a broken tang, then why don't we see some type of tang repair of this kind(don't have to be similar) on a barung or kampilan ?

kai · 7th September 2008, 02:30 AM

Hello Ron,

Quote:

what i meant was it coulda been a certain style of kris, that is why i brought up the relative similarity on the decoration found on my kris's handle and kino's asang-asang

I think I remember this repair from a lot of different kris: Sulu, Maguindanao, and Marano; very old (don't remember any archaic pieces though) up to at least 19th c.; small and large kris; etc.

Quote:

if this is a method of repairing a broken tang, then why don't we see some type of tang repair of this kind(don't have to be similar) on a barung or kampilan ?

IMHO this type of repair only works if you have a separate gangya (or a similar strong piece of metal) to hold the tang - a regular ferrule won't be strong enough. I believe this is the reason why this repair/feature is only seen with kris.

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 7th September 2008, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

....But I have also seen a high % of talismanic blades with what appears to be tang replacements.
Could this blade be made this way deliberately? Some of the work looks like it was sawed/filed in a straight line/box; while some (like yours) are rather uneven (made in the forging process?). The tang being made of some metal of spiritual value (old sword, etc) & being added to the new sword; an old Jin, you might say?

I think Bill had the right idea already in this early post with adding metal of spiritual value (combined with all the other talismanic features).
But it doesn't need to be from another kris. It wasn't that unusual for instance to do a Haj to Mecca. If somebody had brought with them pieces of metal from Kabah I assume that the proper place to put it, as a talisman or amulet, was just below the ganya.
It could also be from some other, spiritually charged metal, maybe from somebody with saint-status (wali) ? Similar to the Malay concept of keramat or the Indonesian sakti? The charged metal could also have been from the same source and later ceremonially been divided among the panglimas or datus within the same sultanate?
In more Northern part of the Philippines I know of such ceremonies among brothers in arms taking place even today.

Michael

Tim Simmons · 7th September 2008, 10:37 AM

That sounds good to me and you say this pratice happens today.

If the tang was made from a seperate piece or to represent a special piece of spiritual metal, that needed to be seen rather than mixed in the forging of the blade. It may well explain why I can see the kris being originally made in three parts. The matching of the two parts of the blade may still be a reason for a seperate tang but I do like the special metal idea. A neat solution to incorporate and show this concept.

Spunjer · 7th September 2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Ron,

I think I remember this repair from a lot of different kris: Sulu, Maguindanao, and Marano; very old (don't remember any archaic pieces though) up to at least 19th c.; small and large kris; etc.

IMHO this type of repair only works if you have a separate gangya (or a similar strong piece of metal) to hold the tang - a regular ferrule won't be strong enough. I believe this is the reason why this repair/feature is only seen with kris.

Regards,
Kai

hi kai,
i've seen this on a sulu blade as well that's why i'm thinking it's more of a style rather than regional.

kino · 1st March 2009, 10:41 PM

I recently picked up this working mans kris. The blade is inscribed, among other things with the two curving lines that forms an oval in the middle and Sisinga Sulaiman. It is barely visible, probably due to numerous sharpenings.

Clearly you could see the repair work to the tang. Within the repair area are silver inlays, four of them, two on each side of the blade looks like 3 lines joined at at the bottom pointing towards the tip of the blade. Could these be the tines of a trident. There are remnants of the silver inlays surrounding the cut-out of the blade. I believe the silver inlays were placed after the repair work.

Comments??

Bill · 6th March 2009, 01:10 PM

Just too many of these to be repairs.
Most logical assumption would be the "Jen" failed the last warrior & needed replacement.
According to Cato's definition of Jen: "...a supernatural entity which resides within a sword. It's major functions are to protect the owner and assist him in combat."

The engravings on this last sword (suggest to me) power from the user transfered to the "Jen" & then to the rest of the sword.
The similar markings on the center guard going into the repaired section & the outer guard may be going in opposite directions. The users power going/combining into the Jen & the rest of the sword & the power of the Jen & sword coming back (outer guard) to protect the user.

I recall a story from a captured Spanish Clergy that was forced to assist a smith. He complained of all the rituals involved & waiting for correct signs before proceeding to the next steps in the process.
If all this was done to ensure a powerful "Jen" & the last owner was killed in combat, certainly no one would want or believe in the sword.

Many of the old beliefs & psyche of the old Moro warrior may be lost. My guess is this may be the results of economics. In bad times or when a sword is needed quickly, the tang/Jen replacement would have to suffice. Add in a holy man inscribing the right talismans & the new owner may have felt quite confident in his new Jen.

VANDOO · 6th March 2009, 05:33 PM

IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO X RAY A FEW EXAMPLES OF THIS TO SEE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE INTERNALLY TO SEE HOW IT WAS DONE AND TO SEE IF THERE ARE HIDDEN MARKEINGS OR TAILSMEN INSIDE THE SUSPECTED REPAIR.
CONJECTURE PERHAPS THESE SWORDS AND ONES WITH SYMBOLS ENGRAVED IN THE BLADE DENOTED, SOMEONE WITH SECRET POWERS SUCH AS A SHAMAN OR WITCH DOCTOR (IF MORO HAD SUCH)

IN WARRIOR SOCIETYS YOUR REPUTATION AS A WARRIOR DEPENDED ON PAST VICTORIES AND A PERSON OR SWORD REPUTED TO HAVE STRONG MAGIC COULD GIVE AN EDGE AND CAUSE OTHERS TO FEAR YOU MORE.

1st March 2009, 10:41 PM	#41
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,003	Talismanic repairs?? I recently picked up this working mans kris. The blade is inscribed, among other things with the two curving lines that forms an oval in the middle and Sisinga Sulaiman. It is barely visible, probably due to numerous sharpenings. Clearly you could see the repair work to the tang. Within the repair area are silver inlays, four of them, two on each side of the blade looks like 3 lines joined at at the bottom pointing towards the tip of the blade. Could these be the tines of a trident. There are remnants of the silver inlays surrounding the cut-out of the blade. I believe the silver inlays were placed after the repair work. Comments?? Attached Images

6th September 2008, 02:31 AM	#33
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Unfortunately so many kris were destroyed that we may not have enough examples to really determine the why of this phenomenon . As for an inherent weakness in design; I can't for the life of me understand how the kris tang could fail before the handle/hilt attachments would .

6th September 2008, 08:12 PM	#35
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I am just thinking aloud here. This thread is heating up which is nice. We are just collectors rather than qualified academics. However we have just the same ability to question and advance our understanding of the present ideas, we can pool so many examples? This is the only Moro Keris I have but it displays the feature in discussion so well. I am not a blade smith but I would like to suggest that in this example the feature is not a repair or a replacement but all part of the original construction. I can only think by the size of the handle that the tang is short around 3-4 inches. It is also off set not following the centre line of the blade, this helps the weight forward feel in the hand. The short tang is aided by the clamps? There are two parts to the blade, the blade and the base part. These elements are machted to each other in a very precise manner. I would like to suggest that all three parts blade, base and tang are assembled at the same time. First the blade and base are made to fit and as especially as the tang is off set it is forge welded in place so to accomadate the base element. I make this only as a suggestion but I do question why every oddity has to be a replacement or a repair. A big question arises, do we see the tang feature in weapons without the seperate base element to the blade????? I feel if you examine these pics it can be seen as three parts put together at the same time. Possibly this is a regional style? different smiths? possibly with some cultural meaning?

7th September 2008, 10:37 AM	#39
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That sounds good to me and you say this pratice happens today. If the tang was made from a seperate piece or to represent a special piece of spiritual metal, that needed to be seen rather than mixed in the forging of the blade. It may well explain why I can see the kris being originally made in three parts. The matching of the two parts of the blade may still be a reason for a seperate tang but I do like the special metal idea. A neat solution to incorporate and show this concept.

6th March 2009, 01:10 PM	#42
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Just too many of these to be repairs. Most logical assumption would be the "Jen" failed the last warrior & needed replacement. According to Cato's definition of Jen: "...a supernatural entity which resides within a sword. It's major functions are to protect the owner and assist him in combat." The engravings on this last sword (suggest to me) power from the user transfered to the "Jen" & then to the rest of the sword. The similar markings on the center guard going into the repaired section & the outer guard may be going in opposite directions. The users power going/combining into the Jen & the rest of the sword & the power of the Jen & sword coming back (outer guard) to protect the user. I recall a story from a captured Spanish Clergy that was forced to assist a smith. He complained of all the rituals involved & waiting for correct signs before proceeding to the next steps in the process. If all this was done to ensure a powerful "Jen" & the last owner was killed in combat, certainly no one would want or believe in the sword. Many of the old beliefs & psyche of the old Moro warrior may be lost. My guess is this may be the results of economics. In bad times or when a sword is needed quickly, the tang/Jen replacement would have to suffice. Add in a holy man inscribing the right talismans & the new owner may have felt quite confident in his new Jen.

6th March 2009, 05:33 PM	#43
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO X RAY A FEW EXAMPLES OF THIS TO SEE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE INTERNALLY TO SEE HOW IT WAS DONE AND TO SEE IF THERE ARE HIDDEN MARKEINGS OR TAILSMEN INSIDE THE SUSPECTED REPAIR. CONJECTURE PERHAPS THESE SWORDS AND ONES WITH SYMBOLS ENGRAVED IN THE BLADE DENOTED, SOMEONE WITH SECRET POWERS SUCH AS A SHAMAN OR WITCH DOCTOR (IF MORO HAD SUCH) IN WARRIOR SOCIETYS YOUR REPUTATION AS A WARRIOR DEPENDED ON PAST VICTORIES AND A PERSON OR SWORD REPUTED TO HAVE STRONG MAGIC COULD GIVE AN EDGE AND CAUSE OTHERS TO FEAR YOU MORE.