Trisula of unknown origin - Page 2

Gustav · 27th August 2020, 01:16 AM

In case this Trisula is not a later forgery, it could be quite a lot older then Michael's one (and has some substantial differences). It looks like an excavated object.

This might be a hint that the old Bupati mentioned is Raden Adipati Arya Kromodjoyo Adinegoro IV https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAA_Kromodjoyo_Adinegoro

If this would be an old and excavated object indeed, I doubt it would come from another regency, even more from outside of land of Java.

A. G. Maisey · 27th August 2020, 01:53 AM

That's interesting Gustav, thanks for making the pic available.

Certainly it is outside the possibility of classification according to the Central Javanese tangguh system. It just doesn't fit.

However, this one is bronze. The trident is associated with Siwa, and both these tridents have a triple ring feature between the base of the metuk and the base of the blade.

The first trisula from 2006 appears to be of iron and it has a metuk base that slightly resembles Puton classification, and its triple ring feature has a larger, heavier central ring.

The second trisula is of bronze and the ring feature has thinner rings, but still three rings.

I feel we might be looking at something from the Hindu-Buddhist period here.

Trident > Siwa.

Trident > three blades

Metuk + three rings > the Hindu Trinity(Trimurti) > Brahma > Wisnu > Siwa

Trident > Trimurti > Trimetuk

Only an idea, but bronze/Mojokerto/three/trisula/Trimurti/Siwa.

It fits together too neatly to be ignored

In Buddhist-Hindu culture as it was in Jawa & Bali, everything goes in threes.

Thanks again Gustav, for me, this is a clarification.

EDIT

You will note that on the original trisula the centre ring is heavier than the other two rings. This centre ring can, I believe, be understood as representing Siwa. In the Trimurti Brahma is the Creator, Wisnu is the Preserver, Siwa is the Destroyer.

The direction associated with Brahma is to the South.

The direction associated with Wisnu is to the North.

Siwa's position is at the Centre, but Siwa's favourite direction is North.

In the Early Classical Period the temple complex at Prambanan was constructed to face to the East, this was the usual Hindu temple orientation in Central Jawa during this period. Prambanan is a complex of three temples with the temple of Brahma to the South of the temple of Siwa, and the temple of Wisnu to the North of the temple of Siwa. Thus, read as directional orientation, facing the temple of Siwa you have Brahma to the left, Siwa at the centre, and Wisnu to the right. The same would apply with other representations of the Trimurti during the early classical period in Central Jawa.

Gustav · 27th August 2020, 11:14 AM

Yes Alan, I also thought about it.

There are even more tripartite elements - the central blade appears to be triangular (we see it clearly on Michael's Trisula), it has three swellings.

Of importance is also the symbol at the base of blade. On bronze Trisula we possibly see the motif of Trisula beeing repeated three times, every time augmented, and the first time the central element is in a shape of Gunungan.

There is one more Trisula, roughly of the same kind but even simpler then Michael's, in the "Kraton Jogja" book, page 148 (chapter "Heirlooms"). It lacks the tripartite Methuk, the last swelling at the point (blade perhaps shortened), and in that picture we see the backside of Trisula, so we dont know if there is a symbol on front side at the base of blade.

In any case the indentation (as transition from base of blade/Methuk to the middle edge) recalls the shape of Gungungan, as perhaps does also the shape of the swelling in the middle of central blade (Michael's blade is different in this very last aspect).

kai · 27th August 2020, 01:48 PM

Hello Gustav,

It certainly looks like the iron may have lost quite a bit of substance - not unreasonable to assume that the tip got lost.

BTW, this is a besi lima rather than a trisula. This might also had affected the construction/style of the central spike.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 27th August 2020, 02:29 PM

You could well be right about the other symbols Gustav, but I cannot see the detail in these photos well enough to be able to comment.

I've got that "Kraton Jogja" book somewhere, but I can't find it, so I cannot comment on that either.

The Gunungan is a frequently met with symbol, every keris can be read as a Gunungan, even though it is seldom obvious --- quite obvious in early styles, it becomes less so later keris.

There's actually quite a bit that we extract from this, a lot more than I care to write about here. I'm very pleased that you made this photo available.

Thank you.

A. G. Maisey · 31st August 2020, 10:20 AM

Kai, when I read your post #34 I was a bit confused as to which item you considered to be a "wesi lima". I could not find my Jogja Kraton book to check the original photo in the book, but I have found it now, and I'm still confused.

Could you please tell us exactly which item you consider to be a "wesi lima", and why?

Thank you.

kai · 31st August 2020, 07:06 PM

Hello Alan,

The central spike seems to have a weird, asymmetrical shape.

I believe I see another lateral spike curving out from the base - not easy to see since its back (cp. my red arrows) points towards the camera; the fourth spike would be hidden behind the central spike in my opinion.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 31st August 2020, 10:49 PM

Thanks Kai.

Yes, I see what you mean, you might be right.

I have the original photo in the book in front of me, and looking at that, the possibility does not seem to be as clear as it is in your photo. But still, there does seem to be the possibility we're looking at a central blade with four surrounding blades.

You know, that "wesi lima" name has always seemed a bit odd to me, I doubt that this was a formal name for it way-back-when. Sounds more like a pasar name, a dealers name.

Still, I guess we'll never know what else it might have been known as, they're not common.

Paul Duffy · 3rd September 2020, 01:56 PM

My thanks to all for a fascinating story

Sajen · 4th September 2020, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

The central spike seems to have a weird, asymmetrical shape.

I believe I see another lateral spike curving out from the base - not easy to see since its back (cp. my red arrows) points towards the camera; the fourth spike would be hidden behind the central spike in my opinion.

Very good eye Kai!

Agree with you, by the provided picture it looks indeed like this. Agree with Alan about the name, besi/wesi lima is weird.

Regards,
Detlef

27th August 2020, 01:53 AM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	That's interesting Gustav, thanks for making the pic available. Certainly it is outside the possibility of classification according to the Central Javanese tangguh system. It just doesn't fit. However, this one is bronze. The trident is associated with Siwa, and both these tridents have a triple ring feature between the base of the metuk and the base of the blade. The first trisula from 2006 appears to be of iron and it has a metuk base that slightly resembles Puton classification, and its triple ring feature has a larger, heavier central ring. The second trisula is of bronze and the ring feature has thinner rings, but still three rings. I feel we might be looking at something from the Hindu-Buddhist period here. Trident > Siwa. Trident > three blades Metuk + three rings > the Hindu Trinity(Trimurti) > Brahma > Wisnu > Siwa Trident > Trimurti > Trimetuk Only an idea, but bronze/Mojokerto/three/trisula/Trimurti/Siwa. It fits together too neatly to be ignored In Buddhist-Hindu culture as it was in Jawa & Bali, everything goes in threes. Thanks again Gustav, for me, this is a clarification. EDIT You will note that on the original trisula the centre ring is heavier than the other two rings. This centre ring can, I believe, be understood as representing Siwa. In the Trimurti Brahma is the Creator, Wisnu is the Preserver, Siwa is the Destroyer. The direction associated with Brahma is to the South. The direction associated with Wisnu is to the North. Siwa's position is at the Centre, but Siwa's favourite direction is North. In the Early Classical Period the temple complex at Prambanan was constructed to face to the East, this was the usual Hindu temple orientation in Central Jawa during this period. Prambanan is a complex of three temples with the temple of Brahma to the South of the temple of Siwa, and the temple of Wisnu to the North of the temple of Siwa. Thus, read as directional orientation, facing the temple of Siwa you have Brahma to the left, Siwa at the centre, and Wisnu to the right. The same would apply with other representations of the Trimurti during the early classical period in Central Jawa. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 27th August 2020 at 10:13 AM.

27th August 2020, 11:14 AM	#33
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Yes Alan, I also thought about it. There are even more tripartite elements - the central blade appears to be triangular (we see it clearly on Michael's Trisula), it has three swellings. Of importance is also the symbol at the base of blade. On bronze Trisula we possibly see the motif of Trisula beeing repeated three times, every time augmented, and the first time the central element is in a shape of Gunungan. There is one more Trisula, roughly of the same kind but even simpler then Michael's, in the "Kraton Jogja" book, page 148 (chapter "Heirlooms"). It lacks the tripartite Methuk, the last swelling at the point (blade perhaps shortened), and in that picture we see the backside of Trisula, so we dont know if there is a symbol on front side at the base of blade. In any case the indentation (as transition from base of blade/Methuk to the middle edge) recalls the shape of Gungungan, as perhaps does also the shape of the swelling in the middle of central blade (Michael's blade is different in this very last aspect). Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 27th August 2020 at 01:30 PM.

27th August 2020, 02:29 PM	#35
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	You could well be right about the other symbols Gustav, but I cannot see the detail in these photos well enough to be able to comment. I've got that "Kraton Jogja" book somewhere, but I can't find it, so I cannot comment on that either. The Gunungan is a frequently met with symbol, every keris can be read as a Gunungan, even though it is seldom obvious --- quite obvious in early styles, it becomes less so later keris. There's actually quite a bit that we extract from this, a lot more than I care to write about here. I'm very pleased that you made this photo available. Thank you. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 27th August 2020 at 02:48 PM.

31st August 2020, 07:06 PM	#37
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Alan, The central spike seems to have a weird, asymmetrical shape. I believe I see another lateral spike curving out from the base - not easy to see since its back (cp. my red arrows) points towards the camera; the fourth spike would be hidden behind the central spike in my opinion. Regards, Kai Attached Images

3rd September 2020, 01:56 PM	#39
Paul Duffy Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 31	trisula My thanks to all for a fascinating story

27th August 2020, 01:16 AM	#31
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	In case this Trisula is not a later forgery, it could be quite a lot older then Michael's one (and has some substantial differences). It looks like an excavated object. This might be a hint that the old Bupati mentioned is Raden Adipati Arya Kromodjoyo Adinegoro IV https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAA_Kromodjoyo_Adinegoro If this would be an old and excavated object indeed, I doubt it would come from another regency, even more from outside of land of Java.

27th August 2020, 01:48 PM	#34
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Gustav, It certainly looks like the iron may have lost quite a bit of substance - not unreasonable to assume that the tip got lost. BTW, this is a besi lima rather than a trisula. This might also had affected the construction/style of the central spike. Regards, Kai

31st August 2020, 10:20 AM	#36
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Kai, when I read your post #34 I was a bit confused as to which item you considered to be a "wesi lima". I could not find my Jogja Kraton book to check the original photo in the book, but I have found it now, and I'm still confused. Could you please tell us exactly which item you consider to be a "wesi lima", and why? Thank you.

31st August 2020, 10:49 PM	#38
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Thanks Kai. Yes, I see what you mean, you might be right. I have the original photo in the book in front of me, and looking at that, the possibility does not seem to be as clear as it is in your photo. But still, there does seem to be the possibility we're looking at a central blade with four surrounding blades. You know, that "wesi lima" name has always seemed a bit odd to me, I doubt that this was a formal name for it way-back-when. Sounds more like a pasar name, a dealers name. Still, I guess we'll never know what else it might have been known as, they're not common.