Seadajak Parang with rare scabbard

[asomotif]

It does have an heavy blade and little heads on the handle .

I am a bit puzzled with the hilt

The handle on Ben's 2nd parang is puzzling too. (with the little heads)
I have seen nothing like it before.

Where is it from Ben ?

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VVV

Arjan, I am a bit puzzled with the hilt on the middle one?
Please let me know why it's Iban?
Is the lower one a Parang Gayang?

Tim, yours is nice too but I think you should post it in a separate thread as it's not related to the ones discussed in this thread. It's to confusing otherwise to comment it in relation to the other ones.

Michael

Hi Michael,

The hilt is puzzling me too , I have the idea that this piece is from the north of Borneo below the Murut area but I have no proof.

The lower one is what I call a mandau from the Dusun tribe.

regards,

Arjan.

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by asomotif

The handle on Ben's 2nd parang is puzzling too. (with the little heads)
I have seen nothing like it before.

Where is it from Ben ?

Hi Willem this is very old Iban style I have seen it but can't remember where
the picture is .

As soon as I found it I will let it know .

But I have an new one coming up also with heads .

Ben

[David]

Well, this isn't the first time you all have seen "human" faces on a Dayak hilt. but you may not have noticed them.
I presented this mandau some time back. There is a face kind of hidden on the top and these half hidden faces (circled) near each side of the "snout" of the hilt.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=mandau

[Dajak]

Thanks David for bringing up this But I did see also one that has same style
as the one I have it has a few faces on the handle in same style .


The one you looks like an old one but not an Iban style one .

But the handle you have is an nice old one .

Ben

[asomotif]

very old Iban style I have seen it but can't remember where
the picture is .

Ben, I found the picture.
Not of the handle, but a picture of the blade and scabbard with another handle...
I really wonder where the handle is from.
Is the handle Iban ?
Is the blade Iban ?
Are they both Iban and... when where they joined together ?
Do the metal bands on the scabbard make it Iban ?
And if so, why where they only recently added ?
Is the shell any indication ?
or just recently added. etc ect

Considering this iban parang was assembled as a composite in the 21st century, is it worth considering the origin / style or age when it is in fact no longer an original combination of blade and handle at all.

A Puzzling Iban parang indeed.

But I have an new one coming up

maybe better to bring up your next one

[Dajak]

Yes Willem they look the same very much this I get from an collector that I am sure he does not buy at oriental arms .

It must be (if they are the same) before he get it he has it several years at his wall that I now off.

It is coming from an collector from Rotterdam .

Metal bands does not look like an replace.

I like to see an close pic off the carving to be sure if it is the same .




Ben

[asomotif]

Hello Ben,

close pic off the carving

Close up pics are in the archive at Oriental arms website.
You can check, it is 100% sure same blade / same scabbard.
They are pretty far back, in 2003 somewhere just before I bought the following mandau from you via ebay.
Notice the hilt ?

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by David

Well, this isn't the first time you all have seen "human" faces on a Dayak hilt. but you may not have noticed them.
I presented this mandau some time back. There is a face kind of hidden on the top and these half hidden faces (circled) near each side of the "snout" of the hilt.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=mandau

Hi David,

Thanks for posting, but I was just trying to forget it....

regards,

Arjan

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Ben,



Close up pics are in the archive at Oriental arms website.
You can check, it is 100% sure same blade / same scabbard.
They are pretty far back, in 2003 somewhere just before I bought the following mandau from you via ebay.
Notice the hilt ?

Nice to see that somebody take the hilt off put an very nice one on it (that I did not see that it belong together it fits perfect even the metal bands) I must say it is an very good restauration .

But anyway I like this one very much .

Better than the hair shield you have that one that is complete distroyed with red and black paint.

I like to thank you for let me know this I have to be more looking at the stuf that I can buy .

Maybe we can see more about the mandau and scabbard so I might trace back where it did come from . ( If that was mine and put it in an new thread this one goes about seadajak/jimpul )

Because when I start to collect mandau it was something like 2002/2003 have an old pic from my collection from that time and can't remember the one you showing.

Ben

[Dajak]

This is an another Iban mandau can we call this an Jimpull afther Shellfords publication ??

Or just call it seadajak parang/mandau

This one did belong to Coppens .

Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi David,

Thanks for posting, but I was just trying to forget it....

regards,

Arjan

Sorry...

[asomotif]

Nice to see that somebody take the hilt off put an very nice one on it (that I did not see that it belong together it fits perfect even the metal bands)

Ben, put some detail pictures on the forum showing how the blade is fixed to the handle and also details of the metal bands.

Than I or other forumites can try to educate you, because it really surprises me that you did not notice this.

Ps. And what an amazing coincidence that the wooden (not spectacular hilt) that was on this parang when it was for sale at Artzi's, ended up on a mandau that I bought from you only a few months later. such a small world.

you really should be more carefull what you buy.
(And where you post the pictures )

[Dajak]

Ps. And what an amazing coincidence that the wooden (not spectacular hilt) that was on this parang when it was for sale at Artzi's, ended up on a mandau that I bought from you only a few months later. such a small world.

Willem If I where you I would more be carefull saying things with no proof
like above and you did with the rentjong .
You suggesting here something that I don't like.
You even can't remeber how much time I visit you that is telling me enough.

Here are an pic off an metal band

Ben

[VVV]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Michael,

The hilt is puzzling me too , I have the idea that this piece is from the north of Borneo below the Murut area but I have no proof.

The lower one is what I call a mandau from the Dusun tribe.

regards,

Arjan.

Arjan,

Has the "mandau from the Dusun tribe" a flat blade with the same decorations on both sides?

Michael

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VVV

Arjan,

Has the "mandau from the Dusun tribe" a flat blade with the same decorations on both sides?

Michael

Hi Michael,

No it isn't flat, its holow like a mandau should be.

here some pics

Arjan

[VVV]

That's a bit odd if it should be Dusun as they didn't produce ilang themselves but acquired them from Sarawak or mostly Kalimantan?
The parang they did manufacture is the gayang with flat sides and usually ornaments on both sides.
Maybe your parang ilang is from one of the coastal tribes in Sarawak instead of Dusun?

Michael

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VVV

That's a bit odd if it should be Dusun as they didn't produce ilang themselves but acquired them from Sarawak or mostly Kalimantan?
The parang they did manufacture is the gayang with flat sides and usually ornaments on both sides.
Maybe your parang ilang is from one of the coastal tribes in Sarawak instead of Dusun?

Michael

I don't think so, the reason why I think its Dusun ( or Kinabatingan area at least) is that I saw two sword in the KIT wich are in style like mines however mines is a more simple one. They are both decribed as Kinabatangan river. The description in the KIT are mostly very secure. Also the handle has the shape of plate 151 in Hornbill and dragon ( described as Dusun) a lot in common with my example. The Dusun was as far as I know the tribe who lived there in that area. You can recognize them on the triangular shap of the handle,the zig-zag line what mostly on handle and sometimes also on scabbard,the mostly grooved hooks in the carving and the scabbard what wears a square plate with carvings in stead of the mostly triangular shape of other tribes.Mostly carved with flowermotifs or stars.
Can you show me an example of the parang Gayang?

Arjan

see link http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/nBa...=&culturenode=

[VVV]

I base my comment on both Evans' and Rutter's ethnographic works describing weapon production among the Dusun.
According to them if it's an ilang then it's most likely "imported" from another tribe outside North of Borneo.
Here are two examples of what might be a Gayang.

Michael

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VVV

I base my comment on both Evans' and Rutter's ethnographic works describing weapon production among the Dusun.
According to them if it's an ilang then it's most likely "imported" from another tribe outside North of Borneo.
Here are two examples of what might be a Gayang.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Also Rutter writes that some of the pagan blacksmiths have learnt their manufacture and occasonally turn out weapons of good workmanship.

On the other way the work of Rutter is mainly written around 1920 that was a times where the North part of Borneo was changing by trade, British rulers who has forbidden headhunting and other influences.
Its possible that the mandaus I mentioned are made before this time.
Mines has a coin from 1907 ( which doesn't proof of course that its made in 1907)

In my opinion the style ( in carving,not the blades) is to different from the Iban.The baldes of the gayang you show looks to be imported form the west indeed but maybe where decorated with Dusun designs?

[VVV]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

...Also Rutter writes that some of the pagan blacksmiths have learnt their manufacture and occasonally turn out weapons of good workmanship... (snip)
...In my opinion the style ( in carving,not the blades) is to different from the Iban.The baldes of the gayang you show looks to be imported form the west indeed but maybe where decorated with Dusun designs?

Arjan,

Please also have a look in Evans page 189-190 to get the overall picture of my conclusion.
On Rutter's comment I understand that it refers more to gayang than the ilang?
Your opinion quoted above, as I understand it, I find very probable.
That even if the blades maybe were imported the decorations (=dress, hilt, carvings) are locally made and Dusun.
Similar to the trade blades in the keris world.
In several Kalimantan sources we read that the best ilang blades were traded to other tribes...

Michael

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VVV

Arjan,

Please also have a look in Evans page 189-190 to get the overall picture of my conclusion.
On Rutter's comment I understand that it refers more to gayang than the ilang?
Your opinion quoted above, as I understand it, I find very probable.
That even if the blades maybe were imported the decorations (=dress, hilt, carvings) are locally made and Dusun.
Similar to the trade blades in the keris world.
In several Kalimantan sources we read that the best ilang blades were traded to other tribes...

Michael

Hi Michael,

I don't have Evans here at hand, but whatever he writes know that he based his work mainly on the Tempasuk Dusun ( where he was located) and other coastal groups of Dusun. Kinabatangan is a whole different area. The Dusun around the Kinbatangan are from the other Dusun groups living inland.

I think that its good possible that the "parang gayang" was the trade parang and was obtained from kampong Gayang what quite close at the coast in Sabah.
see link http://www.maplandia.com/malaysia/sabah/kampong-gayang/

The Dusun mandau I ahve seen have blades that looks like the blades from the Baram rivergroups. I don't think that the Dusun blacksmith where able to produce such masterpieces. The blade of my example is very simple and I can imagine that its possible that its made locally. Its hollow but not that way like a good kayan or kenyah blade.

Arjan.

[VVV]

Hi Arjan,

It's correct that Evans was based in West Sabah but the problem is that I don't know of anybody who did any research on the Eastern Dusun. Do you?
Also naming a group of people living in such a widespread area as Dusun overall is problematic.
Having travelled myself in both of these areas I find it probable that a lot of the trade along the river of Kinabatangan might have originated from the vivid commercial metropol of Sandakan. This means that among the Eastern Dusun probably a lot more of direct Sulu influence was present than on the West side where Brunei were more influential in trade items? All villages are located close to the river today and I find it hard to believe that it was different 100+ years ago based on the dense jungles. I tried to get permission from the local guides when there to take a jungle walk but they explained to me that it was too dense and no paths. So from what I have experience this area is quite different from for instance along the Mahakam river in Kalimantan where there are a lot of paths between villages and not everything centers around the river.
On the trade blades I am of the complete different opinion based on the books I referred to. Have you found any other source or why do you think that the simpler, only locally produced parang was the trade version?
On your blade I hope to see it next time we meet to comment it further on how hollow it is etc.

Michael

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VVV

Hi Arjan,

It's correct that Evans was based in West Sabah but the problem is that I don't know of anybody who did any research on the Eastern Dusun. Do you?
Also naming a group of people living in such a widespread area as Dusun overall is problematic.
Having travelled myself in both of these areas I find it probable that a lot of the trade along the river of Kinabatangan might have originated from the vivid commercial metropol of Sandakan. This means that among the Eastern Dusun probably a lot more of direct Sulu influence was present than on the West side where Brunei were more influential in trade items? All villages are located close to the river today and I find it hard to believe that it was different 100+ years ago based on the dense jungles. I tried to get permission from the local guides when there to take a jungle walk but they explained to me that it was too dense and no paths. So from what I have experience this area is quite different from for instance along the Mahakam river in Kalimantan where there are a lot of paths between villages and not everything centers around the river.
On the trade blades I am of the complete different opinion based on the books I referred to. Have you found any other source or why do you think that the simpler, only locally produced parang was the trade version?
On your blade I hope to see it next time we meet to comment it further on how hollow it is etc.

Michael

Hi Michael,

East Sabah seems to be not as much visited and researched as the west part. I know for example that Osa Johnson landed there with his catalina on the kinabatangan river ( will list pics tomorrow). writers I only found two specific on the east: Doroty Cator "everyday life among the headhunters"and D.D.Daly explorations in British North Borneo 1883-1887 Both books I have not read yet.

Reading the book of Rutter we see that it was just the western part of Sabah where a lot of trade was , also from Chinese and Bajau.
there where still markets there with 700 stands !

Also if you see the photo's of the book of Rutter you see philippine weapons in use at the western part of Sabah.

I also found googling the word "Gayang" often related to the philippines and should be the word for "sword".
Is maybe a parang gayang the word for an imported sword from the philippines? Or was it reproduced in the north borneo? Maybe im wrong that also possible but its remarkable that he doesn't speak about phillipine weaponery in the chapter where he is talking about swords.

I don't mean that I didn't believe that the Dusun imported sword or mandaublades, of course they did.
I think however that the handles and scabbards where made locally by Dusun craftsman, sometimes with locally made blades ( krowit-less simple examples)
and sometimes with good imported blades.

well however it is its a interesting discussion and you let me start reading again!

Arjan.

[Dajak]

The only thing that I can say to it that the Kenya and Kayan where famous for their blades and a lot off Iban, Murut and other ones did get Parang Ilang blades from them .( By Buying ,Trading or by Killing )

This you can see on old pics .

Also is it important wich time what happend a lot off people did think they where in an certain area but that was not the place they where .

And we now a lot of people mixed up things at that time .

But always interesting this type off discussion because we all can learn from it.

Maybe when you come over Michael it is nice we 3 meet together to discus some new piece s that I will get.


Ben

Ben

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Michael,

East Sabah seems to be not as much visited and researched as the west part. I know for example that Osa Johnson landed there with his catalina on the kinabatangan river ( will list pics tomorrow). writers I only found two specific on the east: Doroty Cator "everyday life among the headhunters"and D.D.Daly explorations in British North Borneo 1883-1887 Both books I have not read yet.

Reading the book of Rutter we see that it was just the western part of Sabah where a lot of trade was , also from Chinese and Bajau.
there where still markets there with 700 stands !

Also if you see the photo's of the book of Rutter you see philippine weapons in use at the western part of Sabah.

I also found googling the word "Gayang" often related to the philippines and should be the word for "sword".
Is maybe a parang gayang the word for an imported sword/blade from the philippines? Or was it reproduced in the north borneo? Or does he mean that a gayang is a mandau type but with local blade and so not hollow bladed?

I don't mean that I didn't believe that the Dusun imported sword or mandaublades, of course they did.
I think however that the handles and scabbards where made locally by Dusun craftsman, sometimes with locally made blades ( krowit-less simple examples)
and sometimes with good imported blades.The carvings are to diiferent from Iban swords I think.

well however it is its a interesting discussion and you let me start reading again!

Arjan.

ooh BTW just found a free download !http://www.archive.org/details/everydaylifeamon00cato

[VVV]

Thanks for the link Arjan!!!
I haven't read this book yet and wasn't aware that it was about East Sabah too.
On the use of Filipino weapons among Dusun in West Sabah both barong/pida and kris/sundang were common.
Another imported weapon was the pedang from Brunei. Everything described in detail in Evans' book.
On trade Sandakan was the major trade city in the old days and it also used to belong to the Sulu Sultanate. Actually along the East coast, as well as the North coast, there are still today close contact with Philippines. I visited Sipadan island the first time I was in Sabah and a year later there was a kidnapping of tourists at that island by the Abu Sayaf. I also remember seeing some Tausug when in Semporna.
On gayang I am aware that it's also sometimes found in the Philippines but it's described as a weapon originating from Borneo (can't remember the source at the moment for this, sorry).

Ben, that sounds like a great idea. Let's try to get together all three of us next time when I am in Holland.
Or maybe it's time for you two to visit me?

Michael

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by VVV

Ben, that sounds like a great idea. Let's try to get together all three of us next time when I am in Holland.
Or maybe it's time for you two to visit me?

Michael

Not an bad idee Michael


Ben

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Not an bad idee Michael


Ben

Indeed I should love to visit you once.
But I was already quite happy last week that I could finally pull over my wife and kids to go to Florence this summer.
I had to push a little course they wanted to Rome but I told them that Florence has more beauty,art, etc ( and also a the museum with the Nias collection of Elio Modigliani )

Arjan

[ariel]

OK, folks, let me throw a bit more gas on the fire!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=370140508160