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#31 | |
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[QUOTE=Gonzalo G]
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Salaams Gonzalo G, Firstly many thanks for posting on this great subject which for too long has gone un-examined by Forum. I had a reasonable go at introducing the subject at the European and it is nice to see this thread gathering pace on Ethnographic. By chance it seems that the Turkish Foot Bow and the Welsh Long never came into deadly combat with each other. The extraordinary greater range of the Turkish Bow would certainly have sent the opposition back to the drawing board I suspect. Regarding the religious context I think it has been viewed out of context... It was a quote from https://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/g...icarchery.shtml which I consider not inaccurate neither does it say the bow was derived from religion ...in fact it goes on to say ~ Quote" The legacy of Islamic archery is exemplified by the archery traditions and equipment of Ottoman Turkey (1453–1922), of Iran during the Safavid–Qajar periods (1502–1925), and of the Indian subcontinent throughout the Mughal era (1526–1857), which blended Islamic and Hindu cultural elements"Unquote. What perhaps it did not underline was where the earlier concept derived from, however, I think it was inferred that people understood the origin..for which the Mongolian Archer is clearly the pointer. I think emphasis on Blended. Certainly as I read it there was no inference on ownership of style belonging to the religion...but that surely they observed a formidable weapon and adapted and adopted the system and built a military structure around its training in the case of the Turks with their Janissaries and the Mamluke with their recruits taken often as young as 6 years old from the Steppes. Moreover the subject is a fascinating one and I hope more members can get involved ... Pinterest is bombarding my mail with all things archery and I am certain good photographic evidence will add to the thread in due course. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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#32 |
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![]() ![]() Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 7th July 2017 at 11:52 PM. |
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#33 | |
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I put the European archery book in here for interest... See here for a translation of the blue book https://www.archerylibrary.com/books.../arab-archery/ Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 7th July 2017 at 09:35 PM. |
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#34 | |
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#35 | |
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Although if you REALLY want to know all about Manchu archery, it would be wise to make a trip to meet Peter Dekker (and perhaps do some shooting) in Amsterdam. I am overdue for a return visit, myself! But I see that you are familiar with his informative websites on the subject, so that's good. |
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#36 | |
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APPARENTLY THERE IS A FREE DOWNLOAD...CHECKING.. WRITE UP STATES~ The Mamluks were, at one distinct point in history, the greatest body of fighting men in the world and the quintessence of the mounted warrior. They were slave soldiers, imported as boys into the Islamic Empire from the pagan Steppes, but they became its savior, bringing defeat to the Mongols and forming the machine of jihad that ultimately destroyed the Crusader Kingdoms of Palestine and Syria. They entered the Islamic world as unlettered automatons and through a total application to the craft of the warrior they became more than soldiers. After a bloody seizure of power from their masters, the descendants of Saladin, they developed a martial code and an honor system based on barracks brotherhood, a sophisticated military society that harnessed the state's energies for total war and produced a series of treatises on warfare that more than compare to SunZi's Art of War in their complexity, beauty of language and comprehensive coverage of the bloody business of war. Their story embraces many of the great themes of medieval military endeavor. The Crusaders and the deadly contest between Islam and Christendom, the Mongols and their vision of World Dominion, Tamerlane the Scourge of God and the rise of the Ottoman Empire whose new slave soldiers, the Janissaries, would be the Mamluks' final nemesis. Another review says~ In lieu of an abstract, here is a brief excerpt of the content:Quote" Reviewed by John Dunn The Knights of Islam: The Wars of the Mamluks. By James Waterson. St.Paul, Minn.: MBI Publishing, 2007. ISBN 978-1-85367-734-2. "Slave-soldiers?" " Owned Men?" However you translate Mamluk, James Waterson's account of their long history deserves your consideration. He takes you from their beginnings, when Arab leaders purchased Central Asian boys for conversion, both to Islam and as bodyguards, all the way to the end of their story – early 19th Century Egypt. During the 1000 plus years separating these events, Mamluks not only play a critical role in domestic politics, but also figure prominently in thwarting both European Crusaders and several Mongol invasions of the Middle East. These latter events show the Mamluks at their best, when their tremendous skills as horsemen and warriors allowed for history-altering victories like Ayn Jalut (1260), or the fall of Acre (1291). Waterson shows how Mamluk armies, almost exclusively cavalry, managed to be both good horse archers, and excellent shock troops. He also illustrates their significant skills at siege warfare, and use of "catapults." Even after their apogee in the 1200s, Mamluks figure prominently in the military affairs of North East Africa and the Near East. The Knights of Islam details this, especially the 1300s-1500s, when Mamluk armies, though in decline, were still capable of defeating the Ottoman Empire when directed by smart leaders like Kayitbay. Waterson continues their story, even after the Ottoman conquest of Egypt in 1516, for Mamluks influenced that nation's history into the 1800s, while they also influenced Ottoman military culture. Although wars and battles figure prominently, as they should in any account of Mamluks, Waterson does not leave out politics, economic matters, recruitment, or training. This reader liked his explanation of Furusiyya – a set of training lessons that began when Mamluks reached [End Page 227] 13/14, and included horsemanship plus weapons handling. He also makes very clear the most serious flaw within this system – internal rivalries between household forces of rival Mamluk leaders, often so intense that they played into the hands of foreign enemies. These details and many more, are well covered in The Knights of Islam. Waterson's clear writing is enhanced by a strong command of the secondary literature, and good use of translated primary sources. His text is nicely organized, supported by a glossary, maps, a time-line, plus a first-rate collection of color photos, and a useful bibliography. Specialists may argue on a few issues, pointing out that Egypt's Muhammad Ali can not be shortened to "Ali," or asking the photo editor to reconsider plate 37, which is dated to the "1880s," even though the British soldiers clearly have Wolseley pattern sun helmets. Most readers, however, should find the Knights of Islam interesting. It could benefit parties focused on Medieval, Islamic, Egyptian, or military history." Unquote. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 7th July 2017 at 11:20 PM. |
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#37 |
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A bibliography of Asian archery (books only).
Primary sources: Faris & Elmer, "Arab Archery", noted and linked upthread Latham, J. D., W. F. Paterson, and Ṭaybughā, "Saracen Archery: An English Version and Exposition of a Mameluke Work on Archery (Ca. A.D. 1368)", London: Holland P., 1970. http://pgmagirlscouts.files.wordpres...en_archery.pdf Jie Tian & Justin Ma, "The Way of Archery" https://www.amazon.com/Way-Archery-C...dp/0764347918/ Stephen Selby, "Chinese Archery" Not a single primary source, but a collection of a variety of sources. Gives the original and a translation in English, plus discussion. https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Arche...dp/9622095011/ Joseph Needham & Robin D. S. Yates, "Science and Civilisation in China: Volume 5, Chemistry and Chemical Technology; Part 6, Military Technology: Missiles and Sieges" Not a single primary source, but a collection of a variety of sources. https://www.amazon.com/Science-Civil...dp/052132727X/ https://archive.org/stream/ScienceAn...les_and_Sieges Modern sources: Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani, "Persian Archery and Swordsmanship" http://www.freelanceacademypress.com...dsmanship.aspx Paul Klopsteg, "Turkish Archery". Recently reprinted, and cheap! https://www.amazon.com/Turkish-Arche...dp/1684220092/ Adam Karpowicz, "Ottoman Turkish bows" https://www.amazon.com/Ottoman-Turki...dp/B013MCOYMW/ G.N. Pant, "Indian Archery" https://www.amazon.com/Indian-Archer...dp/8173200149/ Charles E. Grayson, "Traditional Archery from Six Continents" https://www.amazon.com/Traditional-A...dp/0826217516/ Stephen Selby, "Archery Traditions of Asia" http://www.atarn.org/commercial/traditions.htm Last edited by Timo Nieminen; 8th July 2017 at 03:25 AM. |
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#38 |
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PLEASE SEE ~
AND SIMPLY COPY THIS STRING INTO YOUR WEB SEARCH WINDOW HTML Code:
file:///C:/Users/Peeter/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$DI00.156/Arab%20Archery.pdf This entire book is out of copyright and free for anyone to download. ![]() Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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#39 | |
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#41 | |
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Regards P.D. Thank you for the string to the Arab archery book, but I introduced it to my web search window...and noting happened, I mean, it did not open a page with the book. Maybe I did something wrong, please advise me. |
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#42 | |
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Sadly, I can't go even to the next town, less Amsterdam. Snif... ![]() |
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#43 | |
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http://www.freepdf.info/index.php?post/Arab-Archery |
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#44 | |
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![]() There are quite a few ways into the document and heres another https://www.archerylibrary.com/books.../arab-archery/ where you simply go down the list and press on a link ... It also has other good archery links... |
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#45 | |
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file:///C:/Users/Peeter/AppData/Loca...%20Archery.pdf |
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#46 |
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Put this into search as a complete string
file:///C:/Users/Peeter/AppData/Local/Temp/Rar$DI00.156/Arab%20Archery.pdf My string works but yours does not.... ![]() |
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#47 | |
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Yes that works. It will give the entire book... I used the string you have and both that and my string are working...
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#49 | |
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#50 | |
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#51 | |
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Wikipedia. "The French withdrawal left a power vacuum in Egypt. Mamluk power had been weakened, but not destroyed, and Ottoman forces clashed with the Mamluks for power. During this period of turmoil Muhammad Ali used his loyal Albanian troops to work with both sides, gaining power and prestige for himself......The Mamluks still posed the greatest threat to Muhammad Ali. They controlled Egypt for more than 600 years, and over that time they extended their rule systematically south along the Nile River to Upper Egypt. Muhammad Ali’s approach was to eliminate the Mamluk leadership, then move against the rank and file. Muhammad Ali invited the Mamluk leaders to a celebration at the Cairo Citadel in honor of his son, Tusun Pasha, who was to lead a military expedition into Arabia. The event was held on March 1, 1811. When the Mamluks had gathered at the Citadel, and were surrounded by Muhammad Ali's troops, he had his troops kill them. After the leaders were killed, Muhammad Ali dispatched his army throughout Egypt to rout the remainder of the Mamluk forces." |
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#52 | |
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Regards P.D. Already downloaded the book from the estcrh's link. It is the same. Thank you very much to both of you. Last edited by Gonzalo G; 8th July 2017 at 06:51 AM. |
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#53 | |
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Regards |
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Last edited by estcrh; 8th July 2017 at 12:38 PM. |
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It woz Ali Pasha wot done it !!!
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#56 |
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The bow was found in Japan, an unusual place to find an Indo-Persian bow. It is covered with illustrations, cows or bulls and military men, I am thinking that this is a Persian portrait, any thoughts would be helpful.
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#57 | |
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Ok, sorry for that, estcrh. But at that time the Mamluks were only the problematic and unruly subjects of the Ottomans, already defeated but kept by the Ottomans to manage Egypt for them. Not anymore the great Mamluks who defeated the Mongol armies. They were defeated by fireweapons and more modern tactics, since although they have some fireweapons, they didn´t learn how to use and produce them properly. That, and all the complexities involved in the decadence of their own sultanate in the 16th Century. The same happened to the so called "Tatars", Uzbeks, Kazaks, etc. with the Russian Empire, or to the Mongols with the Chinese-Manchu Empire. A mix of social, economic, historical and technological and military factors. Which, among other things, conducted to the decadence of archery. Regards |
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#58 | |
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Thank you for all your photographs, estcrh. Regards |
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#59 | |
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AFAIK, the Mongol adoption of the Manchu bow was driven by the Manchu conquest of Mongolia. After the Mongolian Mongols adopted it, then it spread to Moghulistan, and next to Mawarannahr/Transoxiana (under Uzbek rule by then), and then to the Crimean Khanate. By the time the Manchu bow reaches Crimea, it's shrunk a bit (but is still a big bow) - smaller ears, smaller string bridge, and also less reflexed. The Crimean Khanate being an Ottoman protectorate, the Ottomans are exposed to this bow. At which point, bows appear in the Ottoman Empire which are intermediate in size between the traditional Ottoman bow and the Crimean/Manchu bow. The new bows are about 50"/125cm long, as compared with the traditional 40"/100cm bows, and the 60"/160cm Crimean/Manchu bow (and the 66"-72"/170-180cm Manchu/Qing bow). |
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Thank you for your reply, Timo. The Ottoman bows I have seen does not have the siyah-ears big and so rigid (so it seems) like the Manchu. But I have only seen some Ottoman and Manchu bows in pictures, never seen one personally, and they look different. The Manchu bow seem more "Hunnish", but symmetrical. I have only elemental knowledge of the historic composite bow from the Orient, that's why I asked for the specific influences, like beign more robust, bigger than the originals, siyah bigger or more rigid, different profiles-curvatures-proportions, etc.
I also wonder if those Timurid warriors should carry their swords edge up. Regards Last edited by Gonzalo G; 8th July 2017 at 09:31 AM. |
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