Tulwar Hilt Types

[sabertasche]

Hi all, I'm here in awe of all the wonderful discussion re talwar hilt forms. Forgive me for being absent, the usual work stuff has limited my abilities to participate. It will take me some time to digest all the info so many of you have contributed.

Jens, you asked if the pommel edge was roped and yes it is although it is not raised as if it was a separately applied decoration.

The flat pommel disked sword is very fine crystaline wooze, which I plan to lightly clean. It appears that based on Jen's observations it may be Sikh but I believe the key is in understanding the decorative components in context with the hilt form. This will take a few more books and experience in Indian art motifs. Of the bibliography that Jim mentioned, I only have #s 1 and 4. Perhaps I should invest in a book rather than blade?

I have no history on any of my talwars, #1 was bought because out of the 50-100 talwars to could choose from, it was the only one with a straight blade and decent scabbard. #2 was bought from the same source because the hilt was nicer than any others. There had to be at least 100 talwars to choose from, all covered in cosmolene, all for about $20.00 each - and we bought....2 I guess at the time I didn't what to get my hands dirty

#3 I paid very, very little for, it truely is a magnificent sword. The blade talks to me, it's quality is amazing especially when compared to the vast majority of blades that you see. If only I could understand what it is trying to tell me.

Cheers,

Greg

[Gavin Nugent]

better late than never, as promised, I will start listing a number of varients I have images of.

One to start.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Some more, others to follow with some discussion when time permits.

Gav

[Iain]

Indian weapons are completely not my area, but I wanted to thank those that posted in this thread as I have found it very informative.

Having only had personal access to "munitions grade" tulwars I've never found them that interesting - perhaps because of the all metal construction and very uniform designs. However the examples posted in this thread - in addition to being beautiful - have really excited my interest to learn more about regional variations and the associated period history. I'm not usually interested in highly decorated or ornate pieces but the second example posted by Gav really strikes me as a wonderful combination of functionality and individualistic design.

Again many thanks to all for a fascinating topic!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi ISPN,
Yes there are many very interesting tulwar hilts you only have to find them, and 'encode' them.

[Gavin Nugent]

Another beauty Jens, what I find most interesting is the manufacture, it seems from close examination there are about 8 parts both forged and braised together to create these hilts.
One could imagine picking and choosing the styles you want in a hilt and having it made for you and then according to budget having it embellished in copper, silver and golds.

Does anyone have documents pertaining to the manufacture of the hilts? I'd love to read it.

Gav

[Jens Nordlunde]

When it comes to the tulwar hilts there are a few things, which we should not forget.

Many hilts were made in series, and maybe the decoration as well. Some hilts were made after the customers wish and so would the decoration be. Our problem is, that we don’t have any indications of how many were made after the customers wish and how many were pre fabricated.

The pre fabricated hilts and the pre made decoration would, most likely, have been made according to the fashion used at the time and place where it was sold – even hilts sold in other parts of India could have been of this kind. However the custom made hilts and decorations can differ quite a bit from the first type – we will never know for sure.

These are some of the things, which makes it difficult to place a hilt with 100% certainty.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

When it comes to the tulwar hilts there are a few things, which we should not forget.

Many hilts were made in series, and maybe the decoration as well. Some hilts were made after the customers wish and so would the decoration be. Our problem is, that we don’t have any indications of how many were made after the customers wish and how many were pre fabricated.

The pre fabricated hilts and the pre made decoration would, most likely, have been made according to the fashion used at the time and place where it was sold – even hilts sold in other parts of India could have been of this kind. However the custom made hilts and decorations can differ quite a bit from the first type – we will never know for sure.

These are some of the things, which makes it difficult to place a hilt with 100% certainty.

Jens,

Breaking the hilt types down further, have you ever looked in to the actual process of the piecing together of the no less than 10 different pieces to create the hilt shape before the embellishments are applied?

Here is another example for display that I have been saving for a rainy day.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Another nice type with palmette quillons.

[Stan S.]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The pre fabricated hilts and the pre made decoration would, most likely, have been made according to the fashion used at the time and place where it was sold – even hilts sold in other parts of India could have been of this kind. However the custom made hilts and decorations can differ quite a bit from the first type – we will never know for sure.

Since this thread had been revived and having a great interest in Indian swords, I would like to share a little theory of mine on the manufacture/decoration of tulwar hilts. This is based solely on inspecting a number of identically shaped hilts with greatly varying styles and quality of decoration, and on having a first hand experience dealing with small merchants and manufacturers in India.

As was pointed out by other members, I too would like to venture a guess that hilts, while made in quantity of different styles and sizes, were not embellished before the sale. A customer would choose a particular hilt and if his budget allowed, it would be sent to a coftgari artist (often operating next door to the hilt maker/swordsmith’s shop) where a design would be hand carved into the steel and inlaid with silver or gold. Hence a coftgari artist is essentially a jeweler. Alternatively, a buyer could save a bunch of rupees by going with a plain hilt. Considering a ridiculously low cost of labor (true to this day) and metal for plain hilts being readily available and inexpensive even in 17-19th century, the price difference between coftgrai vs. no-coftgari option must have been staggering. It is a concept not really changed by time, as there are still plenty of people who pay thousands of dollars for a piece of flashy jewelry. And in case of decorated tulwar hilts, we are looking at a piece of jewelry that is not only flashy but is also quite deadly

[A.alnakkas]

Gav,

thats one pretty hilt! the decoration reminds of the ones on pulwars!

Full pictures please :-)

[Rick]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Gav,

thats one pretty hilt! the decoration reminds of the ones on pulwars!

Full pictures please :-)

Yep !
Cough 'em up !

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Since this thread had been revived and having a great interest in Indian swords, I would like to share a little theory of mine on the manufacture/decoration of tulwar hilts. This is based solely on inspecting a number of identically shaped hilts with greatly varying styles and quality of decoration, and on having a first hand experience dealing with small merchants and manufacturers in India.

As was pointed out by other members, I too would like to venture a guess that hilts, while made in quantity of different styles and sizes, were not embellished before the sale. A customer would choose a particular hilt and if his budget allowed, it would be sent to a coftgari artist (often operating next door to the hilt maker/swordsmith’s shop) where a design would be hand carved into the steel and inlaid with silver or gold. Hence a coftgari artist is essentially a jeweler. Alternatively, a buyer could save a bunch of rupees by going with a plain hilt. Considering a ridiculously low cost of labor (true to this day) and metal for plain hilts being readily available and inexpensive even in 17-19th century, the price difference between coftgrai vs. no-coftgari option must have been staggering. It is a concept not really changed by time, as there are still plenty of people who pay thousands of dollars for a piece of flashy jewelry. And in case of decorated tulwar hilts, we are looking at a piece of jewelry that is not only flashy but is also quite deadly

Some interesting insight there Stan, thanks for sharing.

My understanding of Koftgari application is somewhat different from carving in to the steel but rather an application of precious metals to a roughened surface as seen here done by one of our members;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=koftgari

Bidri work involves the carving/chiseling of surfaces as does Zar Buland.
My understanding is the Bidri applications are finished flush with the surface of the object and the Zar Buland is raised well above the surface.

Lofty, Rick....but it is the topic of hilts in this thread, I don't want to cloud it with other aspects

Gav

[Stan S.]

Gav,

Thank you for correcting me. You are right. There are a few different ways of applying gold or silver inlay. I got a little mixed up in trying to convey a point that inlay was probably done by a different "smith" from the one who made hilts. Even now in India coftgari artists are are a kind of specialized jewelers. They don't make swords but they decorate them working with precious metals rather than forging steel. Then again, this craft was also done on other metal items, such as high quality tablewear, etc., which stands as additional evidence of whoever applied coftgari/bidiri in teh past centuries did not work on weapons exclusively.

[redeye]

Great Post, thanks for sharing , was a good read and learning curve for me

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ariel,
You are a very patient man, waiting so long time for an answer - sorry.
The age of you copper hilt is, to my opinion, 17th to early 18th century.
Sorry that you had to wait so long for the answer.
Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ Someone mentioned a classic thread on Tulvars and looking back through the Forum library I think the basis for that is here... and to give this one a bump... A great thread !

I have a humble Tulvar ... or two... the last picture shows Ethiopian blades(German) mounted on Tulvar hilts.

I hope Jens can also steer us on this one ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes it is an interesting thread, but let me round it up with this.
Many millions of hilts were made over centuries - how many have we left?
Most of the hilts were very plane, while others were nicely made and also nicely decorated.
How many of the very plane hilts has survived? Some, but not many, or if they have, they are late - the older ones would have been melted down to make new hilts/blades.
New hilts are made, and made to look old, either by chemicals or but burrying them in cow dung. Some even have the original, thin, decoration removed, and a new gold koftgari decoration applied - all very nice, but not for a collector.
Many buys from pictures only, and cant see through this - what a pity.
Jens
PS. Here is a better picture of the tulwar hilt Ibrahiim showed - I hope it is all right that I lightened it a bit?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes it is an interesting thread, but let me round it up with this.
Many millions of hilts were made over centuries - how many have we left?
Most of the hilts were very plane, while others were nicely made and also nicely decorated.
How many of the very plane hilts has survived? Some, but not many, or if they have, they are late - the older ones would have been melted down to make new hilts/blades.
New hilts are made, and made to look old, either by chemicals or but burrying them in cow dung. Some even have the original, thin, decoration removed, and a new gold koftgari decoration applied - all very nice, but not for a collector.
Many buys from pictures only, and cant see through this - what a pity.
Jens
PS. Here is a better picture of the tulwar hilt Ibrahiim showed - I hope it is all right that I lightened it a bit?

Salaams Jens Nordlunde~ Thank you very much for lightening the picture ...Much obliged...Tussen Takk skall du har..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to Forum "Then suddenly it started raining Tulvars" Here are a few I picked up this week. The coin is a silver rupee presumably added relatively recently .. There are two groups of dots on the blade; the first group of 4 sets of 3 set out in a rectangle and the second set of 3 spaced out dots forming a triangle to the right of shot. Feel free to comment please.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ~and another....

[ariel]

Quite sometime ago I posted here a Tulwar hilt of an unusual design: deep cup with a massive baluster arising from the bottom. It was very reminiscent of the classic Sumatran Piso Podang handle. A similar one was published by Elgood in his "indian" book as an example of an "important" sword ( and there even was a lively discussion on what is "important":-) )

Jens was kind enough to tell us that this was a type of a handle encountered before 17th ( or even earlier) century, and even provided an illustration from Hamzanameh.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13600

Just for the reference I post here pics of that hilt next to the Piso Podang one.

[ariel]

Well, recently I found another one, with even more exaggerated pattern, and even more resemblance to the Sumatran example.