New Keris/Keris baru

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm going to stay out of this discussion, for a while, anyway, as I put the questions.

However, on the subject of keris used as items of formal dress. These are very often just pieces of flat iron that are used to hold the dress together. I've even seen cardboard used to hold dress together.

The standards that collectors in the western world use to judge a keris are not often used used by people in Jawa who need a dress keris. It most often comes down to what they can afford. At a grassroots level, all current production is directed at the local market. Keris sold to collectors in foreign lands are not really any sort of special or dedicated production.

[Rick]

Can you expand on what is the local market in Jawa, Alan ?

If many only need a paper stand-in for a wedding; who purchases contemporary work in Jawa ?
Only keris collectors ?

Maybe this is a digression; I would like to know; it might help how I see the keris .

[A. G. Maisey]

I saw the cardboard used by a very poor farm worker. I've seen flat iron (flat galvanised iron as used for chicken coops etc) used by a number of ordinary working people like school teachers, bus drivers etc. Based upon what I've seen in dealers kiosks in Central Jawa, the people who buy ordinary quality new keris are people who want a dress keris and can afford something better than flat iron. People who buy better quality new keris seem to be people who are collectors at one level or another.

My remarks are based on what I've seen, and discussion with friends in Solo who deal.

[Rick]

Alan, is the concept of pusaka from this time gone now ?

People would not purchase a new keris with the intent of it becoming a pusaka in future generations ?

[A. G. Maisey]

No, the pusaka idea has not disappeared. I know a number of people who have ordered new keris with the intent of those keris becoming pusaka, and two people --- one in Jakarta and one in Malaysia--- have placed orders through me for keris intended as pusakas. I'd say the concept is still alive and well.

[tunggulametung]

The title means Javanese who has lost his Javanese identity. These days, perhaps less than 10% of the household own a keris but 90% plus own one or more mobile phone (you can get an okay quality keris at the price of throw away phone). The reality is that life in Java has been more and more Westernized or Arabized-whatever that means.

To my knowledge, these days in Java (also true to Sumatra & Bali), keris worn by the bridegroom are mostly rented/supplied by the bridal shop as part of the attire/make up package. So it really depends on the bridal shop, some provide better keris than the other-true there are many bridal shops who supplied KLO just like what Alan said, but no cardboard to my knowledge (what year is that Alan?), mostly just simple thin metal. Even if someone own a keris, it is not always the one he worn at the wedding ceremony. Not to mention that in Java there are less and less traditional wedding ceremony being replaced with somewhat more Islamic attire where keris is no longer present (these are often more affordable as far as the budget goes). Same to the wedding entertainment where traditional shows like wayang which had been widely replaced by more modern entertainment like orgen tunggal or dangdut (often with DJ!).

I completely agree with Alan regarding the buyer of better quality keris which mostly are collectors but I have different observation regarding pusaka concept which is in general nearly no longer existent in Java, but the concept of family keris as pusaka is alive in Bali especially in the extended family level (not every household own a keris).

Attached is a wedding photo of RI president's son not so long ago (Java-Palembang intermarriage). He obviously came from a family who should be able to afford the best available keris in the market but it looks like a KLO to me (I hope I'm wrong). There's another notable three days wedding ceremony last year (Hamengkubuwono's daughter, Lampung-Java intermarriage) which may represent the royal family or ningrat wedding where proper keris is usually being worn. It is interesting to note that in one of the ceremony where RI 1 present, all keris except Hamengkubuwono's and the bridegroom's are being tied down as part of the presidential protocol.

[A. G. Maisey]

The year of the cardboard keris would have been somewhere in the early 1990's, place was outside Karangpandan Jawa Tengah.

The community I live in when I'm in Jawa is a semi-rural perumnas outside Palur. Still plenty of traditional weddings there, that keep everybody within earshot awake for a week. But as with trad weddings in the western world, modern entertainment has to a large extent replaced the entertainment that amused our grandparents. We don't see Viennese waltz at modern western weddings too often these days, and we don't see a lot of wayang at Jawa weddings.

Any culture must change if it is to stay alive.

Its true that not a lot of people in Jawa own keris any longer, its also true that superficial appearances have changed. You don't see nearly as many people in traditional dress any longer --- men hardly ever except for formal occasions, and women usually only older generation on a day to day basis. But the people still hold the same values as their parents and grandparents, and still behave in the same way. Only the superficialities have changed.

In respect of the pusaka concept. It is a simple fact of life that not all people in any community will subscribe to tradition.

Another fact of life is that not everybody can afford to subscribe to tradition.

When we come to the pusaka concept, we are at the most traditional level really only talking about the elites in society. It is something that is not relevant to people at the lower end of the social scale.

That some of the people to whom the concept can apply should wish to continue the tradition is to me, evidence that traditional culture in Jawa is not dead, only the outward appearances have changed.

Weddings can cost one hell of a lot of money. I know of weddings involving my own relatives that went on for a week and involved over 6000 guests. For one of these weddings they hired a major hotel in Surabaya --- I think it was Surabaya Hilton --- to accommodate the guests. And that was only one of the weddings. Then they had another one in Sydney for all the people in Oz who were unable to attend in Surabaya. This girl's sister was not to outdone. For her they booked all available accommodation in Selecta.

At the other end of the scale there was the son of my housekeeper:- registry office, two days in Tawamanggu, and back to work on Monday.

People act in accordance with their means. If a lot of people prefer to own a mobile phone rather than a keris, its because a mobile phone is more relevant in today's society. But this does not change the fact that they are still Javanese, and still behave like Javanese.

[tunggulametung]

Very true, that someone can act in accordance with their means and I'm agree that culture is a dynamic entity (but to what extent before we can't recognize it anymore?) In a society when you get frowned because you own a keris and get frowned by not having a cell phone? What next, should in another decade or two we see a smart phone representing a bridegroom when he cannot attend the wedding? Okay maybe it's not going to happen or that I'm a bit too far with my analogy, but believe me that keris culture in the society is not as alive as it look on the superficial level, I'm sorry, I really hope that I'm wrong.

Anyway, good keris (old or new)? I believe that everybody here who has been long enough collecting/studying keris knows what good keris are, maybe we can't put it in words, we don't have to, but there's something beyond words that exist, good keris. Lastly as a keris enthusiast I do hope to see more good taste keris kamardikan in the future, be it inspired by the classic or contemporary formulated.

[A. G. Maisey]

Tunggalametung, you very probably move in slightly different circles to the ones I move in. I have not at any time experienced any level of disapproval from the people I know in Jawa because of my involvement with keris. True, I'm not an Indonesian, but I am certainly sufficiently well established in my own areas of the society that I do get honest reactions from people, a courtesy that is very often not offered to a bule.

Sure, in much of Indonesia, not just Jawa, there is a movement towards a life style that varies from tradition, but this is not universally true.

As for "good keris". Well, on a personal basis every keris that a keris fancier buys is a good keris for that person, or he would not have bought it, but appraised on an objective basis, it may not be so. There have been a great many words spent on this subject, and I feel that there is still not a definitive answer.

[A. G. Maisey]

We've been talking a lot about quality, I thought it was about time we had a look at what I mean by quality.

This keris was made in Solo about 20 years ago. It is, I believe, the first keris made in modern times using meteoritic pamor

[Battara]

What a beautiful and impressive piece, thanks Alan for posting this.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We've been talking a lot about quality, I thought it was about time we had a look at what I mean by quality.

This keris was made in Solo about 20 years ago. It is, I believe, the first keris made in modern times using meteoritic pamor

Hello Alan,
Excellent kris indeed, can you tell us who was the maker?
Regarding meteoritic iron, I assume that the materials is now imported from abroad and when did the use of local meteoritic pamor disappear? (I mean except in the kratons).
Unless the subject was already raised in another thread, how do you identify meteoritic pamor? Besides the look and touch feeling, some Indonesians claim that they can feel a sort of electric wave by passing the hand just above the blade, what do you think about it? I tried it with a match but am not sure about the results although I am an amateur dowser.....

Best regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, I gave very careful consideration to the question of naming the maker, and I have decided that it is in the best interests of all that I do not. This man was for a while possibly the best pandai keris of conventional dhapur in the modern era, however, he has become somewhat disinterested in his work in recent years, and to avoid any annoyance to him, or backlash to myself, it is probably best to leave him unnamed.

However I can name the person who made the pamor material. It was me. That's how I can be certain that it is meteoritic pamor:- I made the block of meteoritic material that went into it.

In fact there is no absolutely guaranteed way to identify meteoritic material. In my opinion it probably has a slightly prickly feel, but who is to say that some other material does not have a similar feel?

We all know that the use of meteoritic material in Central Jawa was tied to the Prambanan meteorite. I seem to recall that Pak Djeno (Alm.) made a blade using meteoritic material, probably from the Prambanan meteorite, so it hasn't really stopped, its just a long time between drinks. Maybe it slowed down during the PBX era.It is probable that Jayasukadgo still made some meteoritic blades.

As far as I am aware, no meteoritic blades were ever made in Jawa Tengah except for people who were connected to either Surakarta or Jogjakarta karaton, and who had access to the karaton empus. All this business about meteorite has been gone over many, many times. Bronson is the best source.

[Jean]

Alan,
Thank you for your reply and I understand your reasons for not naming the maker, but congratulations to him and to you!
Thank you also for killing the myth about meteoritic iron which is used by many sellers but without any proven evidence.
Best regards

[dbhmgb]

Alan,

Thank you for the pictures of that fantastic keris.

It's fascinating how the use of meteoritic iron is so tightly woven into the legend of the keris. It's all these myths and legends that, even though they're mostly debunked, make the keris such an alluring object.

Dan

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you also for killing the myth about meteoritic iron which is used by many sellers but without any proven evidence.

Jean, i think that the myth about meteoric iron and keris was killed years ago for those with ears to hear, but that will never stop unscrupulous or ignorant sellers from continuing to use this misinformation to hawk their wares.
If you have not seen this extensive thread from back in 2005 you will probably find it of interest.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...eteorite+keris

[Jean]

David,
Thanks for referring me to this interesting thread, I do not remember it as I was still a kid at that time
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

David,
Thanks for referring me to this interesting thread, I do not remember it as I was still a kid at that time
Regards

Yep, i thought it might be from before your time...

[Rick]

Since the thread started with one .
This work always gives me great pleasure when it is examined/studied.

The wrongko is like a thunderstorm portrayed in woodgrain .

I will call this a 'good keris' ; I'm proud to be its keeper in my lifetime .
My Son will receive it someday .

[rasdan]

G'day Alan,

When I started out collecting, I go for a quality old keris. Quality comes first since if we screwed up on its age, we still have quality. Nowadays, quality and age still plays a role, but there's a bit of an addition. I just keep what I like; for a keris may have all the quality and age, but if i didn't like it, I wont keep it. What others think about it does not matter since I'm the one that will be looking at it day after day. Well, keris collecting had started to sound like living with our significant other isn't it?

I found both yours and Rick's keris very handsome looking keris and I love them both. My questions are:

1. How do we measure quality? For instance, your keris have a different ratio of sorsoran width to its length when compared to Rick's keris. The sekar kacang is also different. (It's entirely different probably) How does the shape of the ricikan justifies quality?

2. If we take tangguh as age, how can we apply the quality measures to keris with different tangguh? If we take tangguh as style of keris, can we still use the same parameters?

My questions are probably circling around the same thing. It reflects how confused I am right now.

Best regards,
Rasdan

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact there is no absolutely guaranteed way to identify meteoritic material. In my opinion it probably has a slightly prickly feel, but who is to say that some other material does not have a similar feel?

It can be done well enough for practical purposes, if the material hasn't been heated enough to change the original crystal structure, and the meteorite has distinctive crystal structure from very slow cooling (i.e., Widmanstätten structure). E.g., this study of iron blades in Shang bronze axes. Widmanstätten structure is supposed to be able to survive cold working, and moderate heat. 1000C is too much.

A nice paper on the topic of trying to identify meteoric iron: E. Photos (1989): The question of meteoritic versus smelted nickel‐rich iron: Archaeological evidence and experimental results, World Archaeology, 20:3, 403-421.

[A. G. Maisey]

Timo

Yes, no problem at all identifying meteoritic material before its been used. None.

We're talking about identifying meteoritic material after it has been forge welded probably no less than 8 or 10 times, then combined with some other ferric material, then forge welded to a core, forged to shape, and carved.

This type of ID is a slightly different ball game.

Rasdan

I can answer your questions, and they are good and valid questions, but I'm probably going to use a lot of words in doing so. I don't have time right at the moment, but I'll post an answer as soon as I do have time to write it.

In the meantime, try to answer these questions:-

Are the sculptures of Michelangelo Buonarroti generally regarded as work of exceptionally high quality?

If yes, why is this so?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Rick

This work always gives me great pleasure when it is examined/studied.

The wrongko is like a thunderstorm portrayed in woodgrain .

I will call this a 'good keris' ; I'm proud to be its keeper in my lifetime .
My Son will receive it someday .

Hi Rick,
I agree that this is a very good keris kamardikan, may be the work from Mpu Sukamdi?
Regards

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Timo

Are the sculptures of Michelangelo Buonarroti generally regarded as work of exceptionally high quality?

If yes, why is this so?

Thank you for your reply Alan.

I think because it resembles the real thing very closely and a lot people say that it is of high quality (generally looks good)? But in human sculptures, we know exactly how its supposed to look like.

Well, ok, I think I'm starting to get some idea here. If I add an extra ricikan to a keris, it may look nice and a lot of people will think it is nice, but it can not be considered valid since the pakem (of the Javanese keris) is being decided by the keraton and therefore they are the one that can say or set the benchmark that this according to the specs or not...

But still, we probably can only use the current specification for keris that were made, say, 1800s and above? Probably for older ones the quality are not so much on shape (probably judged by how many people thinks it looks good), but measured by material, forging skill etc.?

[A. G. Maisey]

OK, let's try another question.

If we were appraising an artistic work from the 15th century, and an artistic work from , say, the late 19th century, would we use the same criteria to determine the excellence or otherwise of both those works?

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

OK, let's try another question.

If we were appraising an artistic work from the 15th century, and an artistic work from , say, the late 19th century, would we use the same criteria to determine the excellence or otherwise of both those works?

Excellent question Alan, and my answer would be yes and no. Some criteria would remain the same, mostly, does the work "move" me. Art is not merely a technical contrivance. How a work makes me feel and think is as important as the level of technical excellence with which it is crafted. However, for the most part the criteria for technical execution alone would indeed be very different between, say, a 15th century master work and that of one of the master impressionists of the 19th century.

[rasdan]

I for one would still appraise it in terms of how good it resembles of the real thing it that tries to depict. If the tools and materials are the same, the artist should be able to draw good paintings whether in 19th or 20th century. Which make me wonder about older drawings from say, the 10th century or the Chauvet cave painting (on the extreme side ) .

This would certainly be different.. Haven't really given much thoughts on this one, but if this is the case, we should probably use a different standard. However the keris had probably developed in a shorter time frame where we can accept that the tools and general artistic skill of people can be considered pretty much the same and hence use the same ruler in quality..

By the way, Alan, I am really intrigued with the pendok design. Do you design it and why do you choose that design?

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by David

Excellent question Alan, and my answer would be yes and no. Some criteria would remain the same, mostly, does the work "move" me. Art is not merely a technical contrivance. How a work makes me feel and think is as important as the level of technical excellence with which it is crafted. However, for the most part the criteria for technical execution alone would indeed be very different between, say, a 15th century master work and that of one of the master impressionists of the 19th century.

Agreed. However this is somewhat contradictory what comes to the level of technical execution as many times guys in the old days did unbelievable works of art that can hardly be copied nowadays despite the excellence in technical ability. Appears to me that what can be achieved nowadays in many occasions is being less well done - the how - than what was done in the old days with lesser capable tool etc. Knowing the limitations of technology used on sculpting, forging etc something on a given time gives a more well-rounded base to form opinion on whether something is "good, bad or ugly". Of course this does not necessarily make how something appears personally to someones taste any different. Or something. Sorry. Rambling here. Must be the long day and red wine I opened a while ago

Thanks,

J.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Appears to me that what can be achieved nowadays in many occasions is being less well done - the how - than what was done in the old days with lesser capable tool etc. Knowing the limitations of technology used on sculpting, forging etc something on a given time gives a more well-rounded base to form opinion on whether something is "good, bad or ugly".

While i am not going to dismiss technical execution as a criteria for judgement, i believe the point Alan was trying to make with his art reference was that technique can be specific to a particular time as well. Consider Botticelli's Birth of Venus and van Gogh's Wheat Field with Cypress. The first is late 15th century and the second late 19th century, just 400 years apart. The technique is vastly different and one could never assess each of these works based upon a specific criteria for technique. Yet both, at least in my estimation, can be seen as master works though van Gogh's technique would never have been accepted in Botticelli's day and in fact was hardly accepted during his own life time.

[Rick]

Ahh, why did you have to bring up Vincent, David .

Botticelli was a great technician for his time; but Vincent; Vincent was a gift from God .

Like Mozart .