European blades in India

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With the Mahratta, the adoption of the basket hilt form from Europeans to their traditional khanda and the use of European blades seem to have virtually cemented the term 'firangi' in place with the preponderance of these swords extant. So the swords known as 'alemani' and 'firangi', both representing foreign or European bladed swords seems prevalent......thus implying that the Indian's probably were 'OK' with European blades.

Hi, Jim!

And how do you feel about the opinion of Rawson, who believes that the basket hilt form is of Indian origin?

"The Hindu Basket hilt was developed in the West Deccan round about 1500 AD. It is a formal development from the Old Indian, in that the fundamental pattern of grip, guard, seating process and pommel is preserved "

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Why, if they had such high regard for their own blades, would they add spurious European marks and inscriptions to imply 'quality' ?

My "Honda" again - cheap but reliable.
It is not the watered blade. But not the "village" one. It is a normal quality and inexpensive European blade (counterfeit of cause).

[Pukka Bundook]

While I can't add anything off the top of my head about Indian Preferring foreign blades, I can say from a little experience that some of the lower quality (but old) Native blades are a bit shaky in quality, with the 'hot shuts' and the forging flaws and such, and I think I would like at least three at my disposal if going in to battle.

If I had time to re-read "Sahib", I am sure I would find reference to some Indian units preferring English blades.
It is hazy, but believe that they liked very much the Mole (British) blades, but re-hilted them in their native fashion, even though Mole supplied them with a 'tulwar' type hilt.

Please do not quote me on this, I will try and find it.

If we take the Pata sword, they are very often fitted with European blades.
This, as Jim has mentioned, does not mean they Did prefer such blades, but the evidence is powerful that such was the case, and for two reasons;
1,
These weapons are very often of high quality, so a Good blade would be chosen, Price would not dictate an inferior blade in such cases,
and 2,
The Pata was issued to the most skillful swordsmen, most highly trained.
One would not imagine training men to such high standards then giving them poor quality arms with which to go into battle, Especially as the rulers body-guard often carried these!
"Cheaping out" on bodyguard equipment never seems to have caught on, for some reason!

Jim, if involved in a thread, I always read all the posts, inc yours!!! :-)

Best ,

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thinking about it, is it not so, that when we look in the back mirror, we remember the European writings that the Indians wanted/prefered the European blades, and not the Indian writings about these blades?
European blades were at a time no doubt in fashion, so everyone would like to have a blade with an European inscription - fake or not. But this does not mean that the Indians did not/could not make high quality blades.

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,

You are correct.
I meant in no way to infer that Indians could not make good blades.
The evidence is everywhere that they did make some Very fine blades indeed.

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hi, Jim!

And how do you feel about the opinion of Rawson, who believes that the basket hilt form is of Indian origin?

"The Hindu Basket hilt was developed in the West Deccan round about 1500 AD. It is a formal development from the Old Indian, in that the fundamental pattern of grip, guard, seating process and pommel is preserved "

Actually, your note, as I highly respect your skills at research, made me think to reconfirm what I said. So I spent several hours with Pant, Rawson and Elgood
In Pant (p.49) he notes that Rawson indeed did state the basket hilt was of Indian origin.
"..it is probable that this development took place in the western Deccan about 1600AD and was promoted by contacts with European basket hilted swords".
I then went to Rawson, who indeed did discuss the pata and khanda (p.45) where he notes both of these straight blade swords were invented in the west Deccan and diffused into other regions by the Marathas.
Further, "...the Hindu basket hilt, a development of the old Indian, was foreshadowed in the hilts of the sukhelas illustrated in the miniatures of the Deccan sultanates".
Then on p,44 re:sukhelas
"...the hilts of the sukhelas shown in the miniatures from the sultanates are of varied forms and have the traditional circular Indian pommel with dome as the old Indian and Indo-Muslim hilts have, but they have a broad knuckle guard , NO DOUBT IMITATED FROM EUROPEAN EXAMPLES". (my caps).

Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004, p.39) notes, "...the 'Nujum al Ulum' illustrates a Spanish or Portuguese sword of about 1570 with its distinctive European hilt, and describing it as 'A GOOD SWORD'. "

Elgood (op.cit. p.39) notes, ",,,giving arms as diplomatic gifts was commonplace and it seems a reasonable assumption *that European blades were reaching Vijayanagara via the Portuguese on the coast from the beginning of the 16th c. and judging from the number mounted on the best worked hilts in the kingdom, THEY WERE MUCH APPRECIATED AT COURT".

* this assumption is indeed reasonable with the number of European blades found in the Tanjore katars.

Pant (1980, p.61),
"...Rawson calls dhup, sukhela as the same weapon and says that if the blade is of foreign origin the term phirangi is applied to such a sword. The blades of this type were continuously imported throughout the late 16th c into the 17th by the European factories on the west coast .
It is probable that the European blades were FAVORED first because their form was long familiar in the Deccan and because there was little good iron and steel working in this part of India (ref. Rawson p85)".

Pant (op.cit. p.42) re: firangi,
"..literally it means 'the Portuguese' since it was first introduced by them in India but later on it was successfully adopted by the Marathas".

So apparently, the khanda/firangi basket hilt did in fact ORIGINATE in India..but the point was that it was developed from the old Indian sword, but INFLUENCED by the European styles.

Thank you Mahratt for prompting this recheck on this detail !

[Jim McDougall]

Richard, I know you do, that is one thing I appreciate most about you!!!!

Concerning the quality of Indian blades, as always there are varying aspects which derive from period, region and many other factors . In my last post I tried to include some published notations on the favor of European blades, but also found these comments:

I had noted the so called alemani swords as representing the powerful number of German blades in the Deccan with the mercenary forces there.
In Rawson (p.48) it states that "...Hyder and Tipu seem not to have relied much on the import of foreign blades , though some were in use in their armies",
It does note further that, "..the quality, particularly the aesthetic quality of swords of this period are not high". Indicating that the locally produced swords were as he describes, clumsy and of variable proportion.

Also, I had presumed that the term 'alemani' in the manner of 'firangi' meant this was a German bladed sword. Stone (1934, p.6) describes as :...an Indian sabre LIKE the old German hussar sword".
Here it seems the term refers to a sabre of like form, not necessarily with German blade.

Turning to the derogatory comment from Grose in the original post here which includes British blades and I checked the reference in Pant (p43).
Re: dhup sukhela and firangi blades.
"...There is no doubt that the English blades were bought by the Marathas, the factory correspondence shows they were highly unsatisfactory and were progressively in less demand" (Rawson p.87).

This is somewhat curious as Elgood (p.202) notes:
"...Terry describes in 1612 how the Indian swords are very sharp, but far for want of skill in those who temper them, will break rather than bend".
"..DeLaet comments that local shamshirs were often badly tempered and that therefore was a demand for European swords".

* this seems to apply further north as shamshirs are mentioned

Further p202 (Elgood)
"Bronson has argued that Indian blades were brittle and unstatisfactory, finding confirmation in the numerous European blades sold in India and fitted to India hilts".
"..long firangi blades became a STATUS SYMBOL in the 17th century and ENGLISH swords would bow an become straight again. In 1660s Thevenot remarks that Indian blades are too brittle and the good ones come from England".

Interesting perspective revealing the many points of view held by historians and contemporaries and recounted by the most known writers on the topic .

[Helleri]

Could it be that the high quality Indian blades were superior to the British ones specifically. But that in general (excepting the instance of a British blade) Euro blades were largely preferred?

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for all the leg-work in looking up these references Jim!

I see no problem with these differing views of foreign and 'home grown' swords.
It could well be that a country supplying India with good blades in the 17th C. may not be doing so in the 19th century, and visa -versa.

Also, India throughout several centuries has produced excellent blades, But! not maybe Everywhere at the same time, and not always for all ranks.

These things happen in most countries, European or not. :-)

RE bending;
I had a painful lesson in this some time ago;

Had purchased what had been a lovely N. Indian sword, but had been 'cleaned' in an acid bath. (not good)
It had a bend in the blade, and I straightened it over my knee. To my surprise, it straightened out very easily, Too easily as it happened, and had a slight bend the Other way.
I think you know what's coming.
Yes, I nudged it back a little and it fell in two pieces!
The steel looked crystalized and of a very fine grain.
I still remember how I felt at the time. (!)
Anyhow, I contacted a very clever chap in the Czech republic, (who wished to remain anonymous) and he re-joined the blade so one could not tell it was ever broken.
He said the hardness on the Rockwell scale was about 56.

Richard.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

* this assumption is indeed reasonable with the number of European blades found in the Tanjore katars.

The Met has some very nice katar that are described as having European blades, several others appear to have them as well but it is not mentioned in the description.

[ariel]

We need to be precise in our definition of the question: are we asking whether European bladed were USED of PREFERRED?

The USE is indisputable. The PREFERENCE is unprovable: it depended on personal circumstances of the owner ( individual or his sovereign). We cannot get into heads of people dead for 200-300 years. Limited number of individual opinions or testimonies cannot reflect prevailing attitude of the entire society. Moreover, such individual snippets are reasonably evenly divided between pros and cons. This is a dead end.

Were European blades POPULAR in India? But of course. Wre Indian blades popular among the Europeans? Not very. Was it because of their quality or simply because EIC or (later) The Crown supplied their British soldiers with regulation, British-made, weapons? Probably both.

The reference to Rawson re. Basket Hilt misses the point: it is a mix of a modified Old Indian hilt and a European D-guard. It is the latter that largely transformed the older version into a new pattern. Elgood discussed ~ 12th century ( have no book nearby) temple depiction of warriors wielding swords with D-guards ( i.e. well before the contact with the Portugese), but doubts them because there are no ancient actual examples. I am a bit uneasy with that, but can't argue with the fact: no similar feature prior to 16th century is known. In general, I would hesitate using Rawson as the final evidence: his book is full of statements that are no longer considered valid by the contemporary body of knowledge. Suffice it to say that he did not know the difference between wootz and mechanical damascus. He should get full credit as the author of the first systematic book on Indian swords, but his materials and conclusions are significantly outdated and cannot be viewed as 100% reliable without further confirmation. Well, this is the fate of almost every book :-)

[Jim McDougall]

You are most welcome Richard! It was as always very much my pleasure.

Actually I think Ariel has summed this up perfectly in his last post.
The differences between use and preference as well as the diversity of one of the most complex subcontinents in so many aspects. Indeed we cannot know what was in the minds people in this hugely broad spectrum over considerable time and vast regions.
I know the question was directed at finding written evidence in the literature but again , it will vary considerably depending on circumstances as shown.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Indeed we cannot know what was in the minds people in this hugely broad spectrum over considerable time and vast regions.

I can not agree. As for me, I know what was in the mind of admiral Angria in Maharashtra in the beginning of 18th :-)

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think Ariel is right.
Someone told me years ago, that my European logic way of thinking was wrong. The Indians did not think in the same way. It took me very long time to understand this, and although I am far from sure that I have understood it fully, I think that I have understood part of it.
The logic we use in the western part of the world to day, can not be compared to the logic the Indians would have used centuries ago.
Their religious tiers were strong, and the supersticion was very strong.
We sit in our sofas in front of the TV, and try to decide what the Indians thought centuries ago - do you think that is research?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

I can not agree. As for me, I know what was in the mind of admiral Angria in Maharashtra in the beginning of 18th :-)

That is wonderful! I very much admire your confidence in the narrative by Mr. Grose, and it seems quite apparent that Admiral Angria did not like English blades, or that was what was perceived by the narrator or perhaps whatever source he used (Im not sure if Grose was there when he said this).

I think Jens explained 'perception' from culture to culture if not in different times alone extremely well. I have personally always been most impressed by Jens' profoundly restrained approach to research and fact finding and realizing the boundaries we must often recognize as we proceed .

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I think Ariel is right.
Someone told me years ago, that my European logic way of thinking was wrong. The Indians did not think in the same way. It took me very long time to understand this, and although I am far from sure that I have understood it fully, I think that I have understood part of it.
The logic we use in the western part of the world to day, can not be compared to the logic the Indians would have used centuries ago.
Their religious tiers were strong, and the supersticion was very strong.
We sit in our sofas in front of the TV, and try to decide what the Indians thought centuries ago - do you think that is research?

That is why I prefer the descriptions of eyewitnesses. Preferably the cross descriptions.

[ariel]

I think we have flogged this horse enough. The questions have been answered to the satisfaction of every reasonable person and we are just repeating ourselves.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

That is wonderful! I very much admire your confidence in the narrative by Mr. Grose, and it seems quite apparent that Admiral Angria did not like English blades, or that was what was perceived by the narrator or perhaps whatever source he used (Im not sure if Grose was there when he said this).

I think Jens explained 'perception' from culture to culture if not in different times alone extremely well. I have personally always been most impressed by Jens' profoundly restrained approach to research and fact finding and realizing the boundaries we must often recognize as we proceed .

I am very appreciate for your excellent search through the secondary sources and good generalization of all known information. I agree with Jens too.
But I only wanted to know if some of the travelers or authors of the court chronicles right mentioned that Indians prefered the European blades. I haven't been able to find it.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

I think we have flogged this horse enough. The questions have been answered to the satisfaction of every reasonable person and we are just repeating ourselves.

We will "flog the horse" after publication one more questionable article based on the wretched sources. In some cases it is not enough to write simply "in fact" sagely.

[Lee]

From our rarely read rules page:

Be nice and respect your fellow members ... If you disagree with another member's point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. Civility and respect towards other participants are unconditionally expected.

We appear to have recently accumulated several threads with persistent arguments. Members need to be able to state their on-topic opinions and observations without being subjected to undue sarcasm or riposte. If you disagree with opinions and observations of another member, state such and your reasons in a non-personal manner. Ask for 'references' and further proofs of others if you must, but once only in a very polite manner.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

flogged this horse enough

the satisfaction of every reasonable person

Many thanks, Lee. I have understood. But I will hope that moderators will react not only to my posts with answers.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Why, if they had such high regard for their own blades, would they add spurious European marks and inscriptions to imply 'quality' ?

A good question and i think, that an european blade has an exotic flair for an Indian warrior.
What i can say from my own collection is, that a well made pattern welded Indian sword easily reaches european quality in toughness and flexibility but with a higher sharpness.
Many of the famous Indian wootz-blades (woodgrain wootz) are trash from the technical point of view compared to european blades or well made Indian pattern welded steel.

Roland

[Jens Nordlunde]

I find that Roland comes with an interesting view on the subject.
The excotic interest for foreign blades.
The foreign armies did win a lot of battles in India, so their blades must have been better.
Only later the Indians found out, that it was not only the blades - but the battle decipline/orginasitation that mattered.

[Mercenary]

If not good with the references, let's get statistically. How many Indian sabres and swords with European blades do we know? I think 20-30 percent of the total. And what the Indians preferred?

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

If not good with the references, let's get statistically. How many Indian sabres and swords with European blades do we know? I think 20-30 percent of the total. And what the Indians preferred?

Percentage and preference cannot necessarily be correlated when availability is a factor.

In any case, given that references have been something of a theme in this thread, I think a somewhat more empirical evaluation is required than a guesstimate of 20-30%. 20% of how many examples?

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Iain

Percentage and preference cannot necessarily be correlated when availability is a factor.

In any case, given that references have been something of a theme in this thread, I think a somewhat more empirical evaluation is required than a guesstimate of 20-30%. 20% of how many examples?

I don't know. Everyone is speculating and I began the same.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

I don't know. Everyone is speculating and I began the same.

Taking an approach grounded in extant examples is never a bad thing and worth pursuing. I hope you can take the time to put some numbers together. I for one always enjoy reading primary research.

However, beyond the pure figures of European and none European blades it is necessary to consider factors such as:

a) region

b) the European trade links in place within that region

c) Blade production in the region which could influence the potential market for European imports

d) Political relationships with European trade partners within that region

And of course a host of other factors. I really dislike the sort of generalization such as "what the Indians preferred" given the size of the India not just in population but diversity. A question of the type proposed at the start of this thread requires a certain level of nuance.

Certainly I and I would hope the majority of readers and participants of this thread, advocate a grounded study of extant examples over the single, anecdote that started this thread. Although certainly using period accounts as supportive material.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Very good Iain, but there is another thing which should be taken up as well, and that is, that many blades were used for generations due to family threads - very important to them.

[ariel]

Iain and Jens,

You put your collective finger right on the proverbial button: work of that sort requires solid acquaintance with principles of methodology of scientific analysis. Without it people can describe material objects, but are incapable of formulating answerable questions, interpreting existing information , analyzing their own data and reaching defensible conclusions.

[estcrh]

If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled "Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687" By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.

Between the 14th and the 17th century, the Deccan plateau of south-central India was home to a series of important and highly cultured Muslim courts. Subtly blending elements from Iran, West Asia, southern India, and northern India, the arts produced under these sultanates are markedly different from those of the rest of India and especially from those produced under Mughal patronage. This publication, a result of a 2008 symposium held at The Metropolitan Museum of Art, investigates the arts of Deccan and the unique output in the fields of painting, literature, architecture, arms, textiles, and carpet.

"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iW...page&q&f=false