Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

[fernando]

Hi Ian,
It is so nice to have you here.
Yes, it all indicates that those are portuguese marks.
Mind you, it would be 2nd. Regiment and not 11th. If you observe, this number is in Roman digits (II).
If such were the case, the 2nd. Cavalry was licenced in 1807 to integrate the 3d. Regiment of Army Cavalry, the future so called Portuguese Legion, that was mobilized to serve Napoleon in his international campaings. However your sword could have been marked before this took place.
The initials 2ª Cª fit well as 2nd. Company and the nº 45 could well be the trooper (sergeant-officer?) number.
Obviously my coments should be taken with a certain reserve, as i am no scholar in the matter.
Once again, i register your presence in this Forum with great satisfaction.
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Hello Fernando & Celtan,
Thank you both for your kind welcome.
Fernando, I think that you are correct. It is more than likely the 2nd regiment rather than the eleventh. Do you know of any Peninsular battle in which this regiment were present?
I have been desperate to acquire a British P1796 HC sword which are normally out of my price range. My only concern with this one is the fact that the blade has been ground down quite a bit to allow it to fit the French MK 2 scabbard. I wish that I could have bought the sword with the scabbard as together they tell an interesting story. Apart, they are two separate items that show abuse.
Now I need to find a British scabbard to go with the sword.
How do you feel about the grip? Should I take the sword apart and fit a new one or leave as is? The grip has probably been added at a much later date.
Ian

[celtan]

Hi Nando, nice to see you agree with me. : )



I'm always learning. I though the Portugueses were English allies from the outset, which explains Spain's attacks on your country at the very beginning. Spain became an reticent Napoleon's ally only after the British Navy attacked a Spanish Convoy during Peace Time, forcing the country into an open confrontation with England and their allies.

Besides, this sword is _British_. I find it difficult to internalize the concept of the Brits arming a Portuguese unit that would serve Ol'Nappy.



Since Portuguese and Spanish Military abbreviations seem identical, couldn't this be a Spanish sword obtained as British military assistance, after Spain was invaded by Nappy, and they became enemies?

The relations between Spanish, French, Portuguese and British during the Napoleonic Wars were incredibly complex, and sometimes downright bizarre,

Best

¡ Oro,Vino y Mujeres..!



M

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Ian,
It is so nice to have you here.
Yes, it all indicates that those are portuguese marks.
Mind you, it would be 2nd. Regiment and not 11th. If you observe, this number is in Roman digits (II).
If such were the case, the 2nd. Cavalry was licenced in 1807 to integrate the 3d. Regiment of Army Cavalry, the future so called Portuguese Legion, that was mobilized to serve Napoleon in his international campaings. However your sword could have been marked before this took place.
The initials 2ª Cª fit well as 2nd. Company and the nº 45 could well be the trooper (sergeant-officer?) number.
Obviously my coments should be taken with a certain reserve, as i am no scholar in the matter.
Once again, i register your presence in this Forum with great satisfaction.
Fernando

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
Nice to see you here. The 1796 L.C. sabre grip has worked out really well, the orders will be rolling in soon. I hope you enjoy your time here at the E.A. and I look forward to seeing examples in your collection.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Hello Norman,
Thank you for your kind welcome.
My interest is in swords of the Napoleonic Wars although my collection is very small.
My pride and joy is a French AN XI heavy cavalry (Cuirassier's) sabre dated 1810. It has its original and rare MK 2 iron scabbard. The blade has the even rarer 'hatchet' point. It is the second from the top.
Ian

[celtan]

Nando,

I'm really interested to hear from the "Portuguese legion".

In Spain even after the French invaded the country, there still were many "afrancesados" who actively supported Napoleon and his Brother, "Pepe Botella". There even was a Hussar Corps that continued serving the French.

After the French were defeated in the peninsula, those either fled to France or perished in the hands of the civilian irregulars. it was a bloody affair, just like everything else related to that damned war. The way I see it, basically, every one of the parties involved in same behaved abominably...

Then, similar things happened during the American Revolution, Yugoslavia, The-hundred-years-War, post-WWII France etc...

Coming to think of it, while all wars are nasty affairs, some are worse than others, specially when they have a civilan/partisan component to them.

Just ramblin' !

In fact, I still have a couple french pieces from those days.

Merry Xmas!

M

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Nando, nice to see you agree with me. : )



I'm always learning. I though the Portugueses were English allies from the outset...

M

[fernando]

Hi Manolo

Originally Posted by celtan

... I'm really interested to hear from the "Portuguese legion". ... Merry Xmas!...

Concerning the LEGIÃO PORTUGUESA:

It all started when Portugal decided not to agree with the Continental blockade, which would inhibit the British ships to touch continental lands, besides arresting resident British subjects and confiscate their patrimony. In view if that, the French promoted in October 1807 the Fontainebleau treaty, signed by Duroc, on behalf of Napoleon and Eugénio Isquierdo for Carlos IV of Spain, at where was decided to split Portugal in three parts. Northern Lusitania to be ruled by the King of dismantled Etrúria , the Algarves by the Spaniard Manuel Godoy and the country centre by the French.
To enforce this, Napoleon sent to Lisbon an army of 20000 men, commanded by Junot.
Meanwhile the Portuguese prince regent, later King Dom João VI, adviced by the British, escaped to Brazil, accompanied by all his court, some troops and all possible wealth, being escorted by a British fleet.
His mediocre behaviour included the advice to the people he left behind to receive the French as being their friends.
This way the first regiments of Junot army arrived in Lisbon all ragged, disarmed and exausted by starve, caused by the violent march, in a rush to try and catch the Portuguese prince still in Lisbon, which didn’t happen for a couple miles. The major part of the forces was still struggling to overcome the difficult routes of Beira and Estremadura. Finding no resistance by the Portuguese, Junot immediately took control of the capital and started discharging the then weak Portuguese army, sending the men home and retaining the best elements, in order to form a corpse of five to six thousand, sending them to France in groups of one thousand each, making them to swear oath to Napoleon. These guys have then being in campaign from Wagram to Moscow.
The Portuguese legion was extinguished in 1813.
The history of the formation till the extinction of this force is rather well documented in a book written by P. Boppe, of which i have a copy in French. I don’t remember why i have acquired this work, as illiterate as i am; must have been when i went through a phase of reading about the French Invasions (so called Peninsular War).




Feliz navidad to you too

Fernando

.

[celtan]

The Spanish had a similar unit under the Marques de La Romana, serving in Denmark. They were auppossed to be used in the invasion of Sweden under... Marcellin Marbot?

Instead, after Spain was invaded by her former ally, they turned their backs on the French and left in British ships, eventually arriving at the Peninsular theatre. Of course, the Brits would say, "serves her right", but then, Spain didn't want to get into that war at all.

Reminds me of Italy and Rumania in WWII.

All this stuff about fighting between former comrades-in-arms, and playing kissy-kissy with a previous enemy, albeit justifiably so, makes me ...queasy.

Someone once said that it's easier to write Science Fiction than Historic literature, because Sci-Fi at least needs to make sense...

Felices Navidades to y'all!

M

My German descendant of Ian's m1796

[fernando]

Hi Ian,

Manolo (aka Manoel, aka Celtan ) is right in observing that the intials on your sword would fit both Spanish and Portuguese marks.
In any case, i wonder why the marking, and only part of it, was done in roman numbers. I have been browsing this version and found no similar results.
Perhaps when you receive it, better pictures and naturally your own sight, will enlighten us a some more on the marking riddle.
I didn't manage to find any records of battles fought by the 2nd of Cavalry, which served dismounted in the garnison of Elvas, during the Peninsular war.
On the other hand, the troops from this regiment that were engaged in the Portuguese Legion did not use these swords, as the whole gear supplied was French, as you will observe in the attached picture.
But then again, those marks must be re-analized, when you get the sword.
Concerning the grip, if in fact the one that is there now is not a period replacement and doesn't contain any history in it, and assuming that you can get a correct modern replica, why not replace it ? ... says i, in my humble opinnion .
On the other hand, i am sorry to hear that this (as any) sword was trimmed in order to make it fit in a scabbard from a different origin; such are always dubious operations .

Fernando

.

[Ian Knight]

Thanks very much for the information Fernando. I will update this thread when I have the sword in my hands and had a good look at the markings myself.

I have attached a photo of the markings which was sent to me. If you look at the abbreviation for 'number' ( i.e. No.) you can see that the top and bottom of the 'N' has small horizontal bars. These are similar to the bars on the Roman number II. So I suppose that it might be a styised number 11 and not the number 2. Or, it could be a letter?

I will make the sword grip myself from beech wood as I have done on two previous occasions.
Its quite a tricky job and very rewarding but it does necessitate taking the sword apart.
Ian

[celtan]

An M?

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by celtan

An M?

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it.
My Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norman,
I have five P1796 LC swords at the moment.
I bought two of them because they looked a bit sad for themselves and were without grips. I gave them a light clean to remove active rust and regripped them. Very enjoyable.
They will be sold on soon to make way for my P1796 HC sword.
I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword. What is your area of interest?
I don't think that my P1796 HC sword will arrive this side of Christmas. I will update the thread when it does.
Ian

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

... I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword...

How in hell?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

That is quite possible, or maybe N or H. I will see if I can pin those three letter options down to a particular Portuguese or Spanish cavalry regiment.
Ian

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

.

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

How in hell?

Swap Forum.

Ian

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

.

Thanks Fernando. I'll have a good look with a magnifying glass.
Ian

[Dmitry]

Ian, I don't know if you have this Osprey book, but it might come handy.
OTTO VON PIVKA - THE PORTUGUESE ARMY OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS
A very decent concise summary of the Portuguese forces, uniforms, etc, especially considering that it is in English.

It's available for preview here - http://books.google.com/books?id=FdL...age&q=&f=false

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Ian, I don't know if you have this Osprey book, but it might come handy.
OTTO VON PIVKA - THE PORTUGUESE ARMY OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS
A very decent concise summary of the Portuguese forces, uniforms, etc, especially considering that it is in English.

It's available for preview here - http://books.google.com/books?id=FdL...age&q=&f=false

Hello Dmitry,
I have many of the Osprey books but not this one. Thank you.

Ian

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ian,
My main interest lies with Indian weaponry but this year I have been fortunate in picking up some 18th and early 19th Cent British swords, including a 1796 H.C. Troopers sword, courtesy of Fernando as you spotted. This has rekindled my interest in this period which was my main area of collecting when I was a teenager ( some time ago I hasten to say). All my pieces from way back then were eventually sold in pursuit of wine, women etc., in hindsight it wasn't a bad deal but now I'm looking to reinstate some of my old collection so always on the lookout. To be honest my tastes are quite catholic so a nice piece from any period and any culture and a user is liable to pique my interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Why not an 'N' for Número (Number) ?
There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s .

Fernando

.

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted.

The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars.

OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war.

Confusing Times!

Best


M

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

[Jim McDougall]

Manolo, it is indeed surprising the numbers of British weapons that ended up in Spain during this period. In discussions over the years concerning the so called 'Berber' sabres that became associated with Spanish Morocco via Mr. Tirri's well known book, and now seem more likely to be from the 'Spanish Main' from Cuba to South America and Mexico's gulf coast....these seem almost invariably mounted with British M1796 light cavalry blades with tips dramatically profiled.
I have seen other South American swords of mid 19th century also with British blades of the Napoleonic period.

These markings are on the langet of a M1796 light cavalry sabre, and I am wondering if they might be associated with Spanish markings:
Cs A
4
43


All best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

I read something more like C. ia 4 ta 45 (or 46, or 43), which would stand for weapon forty-plus of the 4th Company. You are the one who can
actually confirm it with a lighted loupe / magnifying glass.

Now, the ia / sA could also be a 15..., 15th Rgm?

BR

M


"En su corcel cuando sale la luna
aparece el bravo zorro
al hombre de mal él sabrá castigar
marcando la Zeta de Zorro"

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Manolo, it is indeed surprising the numbers of British weapons that ended up in Spain during this period. In discussions over the years concerning the so called 'Berber' sabres that became associated with Spanish Morocco via Mr. Tirri's well known book, and now seem more likely to be from the 'Spanish Main' from Cuba to South America and Mexico's gulf coast....these seem almost invariably mounted with British M1796 light cavalry blades with tips dramatically profiled.
I have seen other South American swords of mid 19th century also with British blades of the Napoleonic period.

These markings are on the langet of a M1796 light cavalry sabre, and I am wondering if they might be associated with Spanish markings:
Cs A
4
43


All best regards,
Jim

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys,

If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted.

The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars.

OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war.

Confusing Times!

Best


M

Manolo/Fernando,
If the sword was Spanish wouldn't 2nd be 'segundo' not 'segunda'.
The number 2 has an A after it, not a O.
ian

[celtan]

Hi Ian,

Compañia has the feminine genre. Regimiento is of the masculine genre.

So 4 a would be Cuarta (4th) Compañia. To that, you can add that Cia. is also an accepted abbreviation for Compañia.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Those pesky romance verbs, tenses, adverbs and genres.

(OTOH, our pronunciation is more predictable ie. men ace / menace )

: )

PD: Just think about Spanglish in NY and LA. Now you have a headache..!

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Manolo/Fernando,

If the sword was Spanish wouldn't 2nd be 'segundo' not 'segunda'.
The number 2 has an A after it, not a O.
ian

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by celtan

I read something more like C. ia 4 ta 45 (or 46, or 43), which would stand for weapon forty-plus of the 4th Company. You are the one who can
actually confirm it with a lighted loupe / magnifying glass.

Now, the ia / sA could also be a 15..., 15th Rgm?

BR

M


"En su corcel cuando sale la luna
aparece el bravo zorro
al hombre de mal él sabrá castigar
marcando la Zeta de Zorro"

LOL!!!! Those pesky papparazzi's!!!! How did they get this picture of me in my sword research disguise, on the neverending quest for those elusive references !
Outstanding Manolo !, ya got me there.

I wish I could get a better photo of these markings, they really are as I showed though, the Cs and an A, the numeral 4 and below 43.

It is distinctly a British light cav 1796, and I've probably had it 30 years now, again, not available right now.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Dear Ian,

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Fernando,
I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N.
I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way?
I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather.
Ian

I can read that Portuguese Regiments (cavalry or other) were designated by names until 1806, date in which they started to be treated with numbers.
But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures.
If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher.
I am deeply sorry to be of no help .
Fernando

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by fernando

Dear Ian,


I can read that Portuguese Regiments (cavalry or other) were designated by names until 1806, date in which they started to be treated with numbers.
But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures.
If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher.
I am deeply sorry to be of no help .
Fernando

Never mind Fernando,
Thanks for your help anyway. I guess that the markings will just have to remain a bit of a mystery. I think that the sword saw plenty of action and a long life. The blade should be 1 1/2 inches wide . In places the blade has lost nearly 1/4 inch through excessive sharpening.
Ian