Figural horn (possibly rhino) hilt - Page 2

Gustav · 22nd April 2016, 11:13 AM

Purely illustrative attachment to my previous post, the last picture is a base of a pillar from mosque in Demak, 15th/16th cent., as an example for a feature similar to one found on a base of hilts:

Gustav · 22nd April 2016, 12:13 PM

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]

Any reading of the symbolism to be found in the Javanese keris must be done from a base of Javanese understanding within the applicable time frame. We cannot take mainstream religious understandings and expect that these can be used to understand the way in which beliefs, symbols and practices were understood in Hindu-Jawa. So, although we may believe that it is valid to interpret some symbol according to an understanding held in a different place, and at a different time, we must question this belief if it does not fit comfortably with the beliefs and practices that were current in Jawa prior to Islamic domination.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we not discussing this matter in terms of 16th century Jawa?

When did the Islamic domination of Jawa really start to get rolling?

QUOTE]

In the book "Art of Indonesia/Pusaka" (Periplus 1998, there are many editions of this book) there is an article by Suwati Kartiwa with K.R.T. Hardjonagoro. On page 173 a wall plaque is depicted, dated 1711. The text says: "In Cirebon, one of the oldest cities in Java, wooden plaques hang on house walls near the entrance door to protect the household from evil influences. Cirebon art combines motifs from various sources: the figure on this example has an elephant's head like the Hindu god Ganesa, and stands on a cloudlike ground reminiscent of south Chinese art of Ming Dynasty." So it is well possible the people at that time were aware of the function of Ganesa as master and remover of obstacles. See also plate LXIII from van der Hoop, Indonesische Siermotieven.

There are many such examples of elements (and conceptions) of hindu art living further in the art of 16th/17th cent., especially in coastal cities, yet also elsewhere. There are the famous wall plaques from Keraton Kasepuhan in Cirebon. A relief from Mosque in Mantingan depicts a completely scroll-covered ape and a crab, which corresponds to the Setubandha episode from Hikayat Seri Rama. Museum Nasional has a gold plaque depicting this episode, dated 14th/15th cent., East Java. An interesting coincidence - the scroll covered body could be the same tendence of "hiding" a figure exposed on old hilt of David http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=buta+hilt. As I understand, for some people this is a sign of somewhat later stage in development, yet we are able to found figures with limbs merging into foliage already in the art of Majapahit (Eggebrecht, Versunkene Königreiche Indonesiens, 1995: cat nr. 149, Museum Nasional, Inv. Nr. 422b).

We have many symbols from Candi Sukuh depicted on gateway of mosque in Sendang Duwur such as the Garuda wings and the "Rainbow" arch with Kala and two deer heads substituting Makara.

In fact, I think the coastal cities with their elements of Muslim Chinese art influenced art of Majapahit for some time bevor the collapse of Majapahit, and symbols/motifs and their meanings from the art of Majapahit lived forth for some time in coastal cities after Majapahit ceased to exist. There almost never is a "pure" state of something. This, of course is nothing new, yet important in context of these figural hilts.

Of course at some time some elements ceased to be understood as symbols, became just motifs, and then disappeared. This development could in some cases be a possibility for a rough estimation of age.

Gustav · 23rd April 2016, 12:25 AM

Well, continuing the journey a few thoughts about the four edges visible in the deep cuts between the triangles.

These edges are a feature, which indeed disappear in later Pasisir figural hilts. They are very good distinguishable as a socket/pedestal of the figure in Early Gowa style gold hilts, actually in all early hilts depicting an aristocratic character (Vienna, Munich). The hilt in Vienna (before 1607) still has the original paint, and the socket is painted in dark red - it perhaps insinuates the Majapahit style brick architecture.

These four edges, sometimes still as socket/pedestal are seen in most 16th/17th cent. figural hilts with demonic naked figures. They sometimes are practically indistinguishable in pictures, yet clearly seen when held in hand. This makes them hardly reproducible today, because carvers in Indonesia are still working from pictures, I suppose (I will write in a separate post about it later).

Yet these edges continue to appear in Cirebon and Tegal hilts of other styles at the typical "waist"! It is a very good example for a certain feature ceasing to appear in original context and wandering to a new, currently appearing one.

In figural Rakshasa/Yaksha hilts the development is very clear - the cuts between the triangles are closing, the edges in the cuts disappear, the individual symbols within the triangles disappear, the triangles become all the same size, at the end we have a continuous Tumpal board.

A speculation about the socket/pedestal in context of naked Rakshasa/Yaksha figures - perhaps there is a possibility to interpret it as a rock, and then, to regard the whole ensemble in the context of a mountain hermit (which as a form of religious existence is very popular at the end of Majapahit rule as well as in early Islamic period until Mataram II - it really is a junction). Here I remember the sheath of Nr. 2881 from Dresden. On it a mountain scenery is depicted, with many small buildings, indistinguishable in photographs, which I called "Candi like" back then. Now I understand - these most probably are hermitages. Mount Penanggungan and many other were full of them. Also in front of Gandar (where Gandhik of Keris rests behind, left edge in the picture) of both Viennese and Sendai Sunggingan there is a depiction of a very simple architectonic structure with roof, at exactly the same place - now I also understand it as hermitage, becouse of Mountain scenery on both Sunggingan (depicted is the Sunggingan from Vienna, before 1607).

Actually the same scenery is depicted on gateway of Sendang Duwur - mountains with many small caves/buildings, which possibly are hermitages.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd April 2016, 08:50 AM

Thank you for your detailed responses to my queries Gustav, I believe I now understand reasonably well the foundations of your opinions.

I'm not going to work through what you have written and address every point you have made, but I will comment on what I see as the most important elements in what you have written. My comments will be very brief, but I am more than happy to answer any direct question that either you or anybody else may raise.

Post # 30.

The Tumpal

The present day conventional understanding of the tumpal is that it is representative of the Gunungan. The Gunungan is representative of the Cosmic Mountain, which can also be taken as Mt. Meru, home of the Gods and the waiting place of the ancestors. Siwa lives on Mt. Meru, so Mt. Meru can also represent Siwa. The Balinese shrine form is known as a Meru.

The lower slopes of Mt. Meru are covered with foliage, so a tumpal or Gunungan that carries foliate motifs (lung-lungan) is an intensification of the reference to Mt. Meru. Often Bhoma (Kala) will appear with a tumpal-like surmount of foliage, this reference can be read as the uniting of earth and water to produce growth, an extremely important matter for an agricultural people. (Bhoma is the son of Wisnu and Basundari = son of earth and water = symbolic of growth and fertility)

The Bhoma, sometimes called Kala, is a representation of the son of Wisnu and Basundari, and thus is the child of water and earth. The joining of water and earth results in the growth of plants, which in a society dependent upon agriculture equates to prosperity. In Sanscrit, Bhoma means "born of the earth". Thus Bhoma can be taken to represent the growth of vegetation. However, Bhoma should also be read as a protective symbol.

The horizontal "lingga/yoni" that we believe we can sometimes see in the base of a tumpal can also be interpreted as a bintulu, which in this context can be interpreted as symbolic of Bhoma.

From the historical perspective, the lung-lungan motifs (foliate motifs) are probably a development of one of the very basic Javanese motifs, the scroll.

The horizontal "lingga/yoni" is actually a Javanese representation of the conventional vertical lingga/yoni, along with all that this implies. The lingga : yoni symbolism represents the indivisible nature of male and female principles inherent in all creation. The balance of male : female is present in all Hindu ideals, and there cannot be one in the absence of the other, thus where the male principle (lingga) is found in combination with the female principle (yoni) we have a representation of creation and of a community. The very foundations of life and society.

The Gunungan of the wayang (also known as the Kayon) is a polysymbol that represents the Cosmic Mountain and by association the dwelling place of the gods, Mt. Meru, and also the Kalpataru Tree, or Tree of Life. So, in fact, the Gunungan can also be understood as the Kalpataru Tree.

The very first thing that we should seek to understand when we set out to interpret Javanese symbolism, whether in the keris or in some other context is the Gunungan. Possibly the best beginning for this is:-

Sumukti Sumastuti , "Gunungan, The Javanese Cosmic Mountain", A dissertation submitted to the Graduate Division of the University of Hawaii in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Anthropology, December 1997.

I am sorry to say I am not a big fan of some of Karsten Jensen's ideas.

Post # 32

Gustav, I think we might have another misunderstanding here:-

you have quoted something I wrote that referred to the interpretation of symbols to be found in the keris, and then provided some comment on the influence of Hindu culture in Jawa following the collapse of the political entities that adhered to a Hindu-Buddhist belief system.
Yes, of course China. Have a look at Pekalongan.

I have no argument with what you have written.

How could I have?

All this is common knowledge, its "Jawa 101" so to speak.

The Javanese courts have never let go completely of a lot of the trappings of the Hindu-Buddhist period, and Hindu influences permeate ordinary Javanese society even today. China? Javanese rulers married Chinese women and exchanged gifts with Chinese rulers. Chinese influences permeate Javanese culture and society just as do the influences of many other cultures

My comments were directed at interpretation of symbols. In simple terms I said that when we seek to interpret the meaning of a symbol we need to interpret it in accordance with the relevant place and time.

The meaning of symbols depends upon the place and time where the symbol was used, the same symbol may not have the same meaning when it is used several hundred years apart, or several thousand miles apart.

In fact, in Javanese symbolism, the same symbol may not have the same meaning in two different contexts, even though these contexts apply in the same place and at the same time. One of the problems in understanding Javanese symbolism is that it is polysymbolism, ie, the same symbol can be understood in different ways depending upon context and intent. Thus, we cannot just look at the symbol and assume that it has a constant meaning, we need to penetrate both context and intent and then try to interpret what the symbol is intended to say. This makes Javanese symbolism very, very difficult to come to terms with. Sometimes we simply cannot understand what a symbol is really intended to mean.

Post # 33

Gustav, I would prefer to reserve comment of this post, nevertheless, I greatly appreciate the effort you have made to respond to my questions, thank you for clarifying my understanding.

Gustav · 23rd April 2016, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

G

In fact, in my experience the traditional artisans of Jawa are totally uninterested in the opinions of people outside their own personal circle of acquaintances, and even then what opinions even their own acquaintances may voice, they find to be irrelevant:- "my family has always done it this way, I'll continue to do it this way."

Actually, all the people I know who carve hilts do not own computers, do not understand how to use the internet, and in most cases are only marginally literate. Their language is Javanese, when they use Bahasa Indonesia they are very limited and tend to use it mixed with the local dialect, they most certainly have no understanding of English at all.

There is a cottage industry, in Sumenep mostly, that produces modern copies of old styles, but Blind Freddy can see the difference between these productions and genuinely old hilts.

Intentional fakery at a production level is very, very rare in the World of the Keris, and when it does occur it is almost invariably directed at the local Indonesian market, and for much bigger money than any buyer outside Indonesia would ever be willing to pay.

I don't believe it is so simple. An example - there were very ugly Indonesian (and of course Malaysian) made Tajong hilts for years. Now the Indonesian carvers have reached very high level in reproducing Tajong hilt. The source of this improvement is the book "Spirit of Wood", with its detailed drawings, and surely genuine examples held in hand, because some things you understand only having the object in the hand.

Another example could be the Indonesian made Malela blades. There is a dealer, who presented a Malela blade on this Forum, and years later another one, by the same maker. The improvement was very big.

I don't really know, if the interest in blades and hilts, such as the ones found in old European collections, is growing. That interest could be marginal, yet I believe it could grow in future. For myself I have almost no interest in modern Keris culture in Indonesia, yet even I have noticed two blades in last five years, which imitate the big beefy old keris. These blades were artificially aged, and one of them appeared in an Indonesian Keris magazine, another one in a European publication, both times as old blades. Judging by details I am nearly sure it could be the same maker.

And I have seen at least one copy of an old Sunggingan from Dresden.

Of course, reproducing an old hilt could be a more delicate matter. I am not so sure about the more recent hilts David presented - for me they have some more "back to the roots" elements then normally seen. Of course here I could be easily wrong.

One of the rules is, when there is demand, there will be a supply.

May be the Indonesian carvers are half illiterate, perhaps they don't use internet, yet their customers, and they should be dealers and bigger style dealers, certainly are and use.

Gustav · 23rd April 2016, 09:57 AM

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]

I am sorry to say I am not a big fan of some of Karsten Jensen's ideas.

QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Post # 33

Gustav, I would prefer to reserve comment of this post, nevertheless, I greatly appreciate the effort you have made to respond to my questions, thank you for clarifying my understanding.

Alan, in fact, post #33 was the most interesting one.

Please take a look at your notices and pictures of sheath of Nr. 2881 from Dresden.

Some people don't like Kerner, others don't like Jensen

I always have used Jensens Krisdisk as a purely pictorial source, the best available to study Keris from old European collections.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd April 2016, 02:00 PM

Gustav, in respect of post #33, yes, it was interesting. Very. This is precisely the reason I will make no comment.

As to the production of very good copies of older blades, the situation is exactly as I have said on many occasions:- at the production level these keris are not intended as forgeries or fakes, in fact, what we see here is the continuation of a tradition as old keris culture itself. Current era makers who have sufficient talent copying the work of makers from previous times. This is regarded as a tribute to the previous maker.

However, when those copies get into the hands of certain people, they magically age by a couple of hundred years.

All this speculation about photos and interest in European museums and European "knowledge" is just a load of nonsense. The keris community in Indonesia has no interest at all in the opinions of people outside their own circle of collaborators and targets.

The concept that craftsmen can produce convincing keris, or convincing hilts, or convincing anything else from photos is another flight of fancy. They simply cannot, but the people who are at the top of the keris industry have no problem at all of obtaining the necessary examples of works that they want copied, and these copies are then sold on the local market for prices that no European, American or other person who was not a part of the culture would pay.

It might be a bitter pill to swallow for some people, but the Keris World in Indonesia has not one iota of interest in what people outside that world think or do, and on the very rare occasions when they do learn some of the ideas held by those outside the culture it usually has either one of two results:- derisive smiles accompanied by cutting remarks, or anger.

Think about it like this Gustav:- if you had a spare $50,000 what would you do with it?

If a businessman from Jakarta had a spare $50,000, what might he do with it?

Its a different world Gustav, and you cannot possibly understand it unless you have lived it.

Gustav · 23rd April 2016, 02:35 PM

Alan, I will not pounder about how exactly the first line in your previous post was meant.

I never ever did speculate about European "knowledge", I actually don't understand what it means. David wrote: "I don't see any particular indicators in the style of this buta hilt that would definitively place it in the 17th century", and all I did was trying to show, why this hilt most probably is a 17th cent. hilt. For my part, there is no "knowledge", just comparative analysis. For such, of course, you should have proper sources.

When there is no interest in old blades from European museums, why blades inspired by these did surface, possibly hilts, and even at least one copy of a 17th cent. Sunggingan I am aware of?

You wrote: "The concept that craftsmen can produce convincing keris, or convincing hilts, or convincing anything else from photos is another flight of fancy. They simply cannot, but the people who are at the top of the keris industry have no problem at all of obtaining the necessary examples of works that they want copied (...)"

I see here no big contradiction with my post: " Now the Indonesian carvers have reached very high level in reproducing Tajong hilt. The source of this improvement is the book "Spirit of Wood", with its detailed drawings, and surely genuine examples held in hand, because some things you understand only having the object in the hand."

I have absolutely no wish to become involved in Indonesian Keris world, yet I simply notice its offshoots in European and American auction houses, dealer catalogues, collections and publications.

A. G. Maisey · 24th April 2016, 03:31 AM

Gustav, my first line should have read as did my initial response, forget the "will not", and substitute "reserve". To reserve comment is to delay comment. Some of your speculation and interpretation I would prefer not to comment on. But I'm happy to exchange comment on some other things.

My notes on sunggingan (2881) read:-
"The wr. has a sub-motif of stupas & foliage overlaid by gilt lines which are trunks & branches of trees & possibly a ground line"

This is how I saw it with it in my hand. I could be wrong, but in the absence of the object in question it is pointless discuss it. The way I did the photos on all these keris was not sufficiently technically advanced to permit a clear rendition of a very faint sub-motif.

As to "European knowledge".
Since very early days there has been continuing comment by people from Europe, and from societies founded in the European tradition, about the keris. Its not just Europeans, but other people who have some interest, or some training, academic or otherwise, who think they have something to contribute to the ongoing discussion. I must include myself in this group, as well as probably the most careful and accurate of all outside commentators, Garrett & Bronwen Solyom.

Some of the commentary generated by the outsiders has been excellent and has made available knowledge and understandings that are little known in Indonesia itself, or have been forgotten.

Some other commentary has been somewhere between silly and ludicrous.

However, whether that outside commentary has fallen into the "good" basket, or the "bad" basket has made not the slightest difference at all to the keris community in Jawa. I have selected Jawa specifically because this is the centre of the keris belief system and tradition, and also because I know the situation there very well..

I believe I understand how you intend your age estimates to be taken, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are looking at a minuscule sample of hilts of a known age, you look at the features in these hilts, then you compare with other hilts that you know to be younger. Based on this you form the opinion that certain features appear in the known older hilts, that do not appear in the known younger hilts.

I personally have a little bit of difficulty in subscribing to this methodology because the features that you point out in older hilts, I have seen in hilts that have been produced since 1980. These very recent hilts are obviously not at all old and could never be confused with old hilts, but to my mind the fact that design features in known old hilts are being repeated in known new hilts demonstrates a continuing tradition.

Thus, I question whether we can use design as an indicator of age, or whether these design features are in fact styles that come from different sources or areas of belief, or that have some other unknown reason for variation.

I do understand analysis. It is the foundation stone of how I have earnt my living for most of my life. What I know about analysis is this:- to draw conclusions we need a sufficiently large population from which to draw the test sample, then we need to factor in the statistical error. We do have a sufficiently large population of new hilts, we do not have a sufficiently large population of old hilts. Statistically the possibility of an incorrect conclusion is enormous.

We can make an observation, but we cannot draw a conclusion.

Gustav, it is beyond doubt that museums in Europe do hold some very old keris, as you know, I have seen, handled, and photographed some of these keris held by a number of museums. In some cases the keris that I looked at were documented, and what I found to be extremely interesting was that these keris that were sometimes several hundred years old could easily be mixed in with a batch of high quality, current production keris from the best Javanese and Madurese makers, and no collector that I know would be able to tell which keris was 200 years old, and which keris was 200 days old.

If we raise the bar just a little, and we have one of the people who are at the top of the Indonesian keris trade put one of the truly excellent current makers on his payroll, then give him a very high quality keris to copy, supervise the production, and then have old-style kinatah work done, the result will be a keris that perhaps only three or four people in the entire world will know to be a recently produced keris.

It was not the maker who produced the forgery, it was the man he was working for who used the maker as a tool. This same man, or one of his group, will introduce this keris into the local market, probably in Jakarta and it will sell for a price that nobody outside that local market would ever pay. We are not talking a few hundred dollars, or even a few thousand dollars, we are talking tens of thousands of dollars.

This is not to say that keris that pretend to be what they are not do not enter the market outside Indonesia. Of course they do. Perhaps three times a week on average I have photos of this type of keris sent to me for comment and advice. Sometimes it is easy to see that I'm looking at a ring-in, other times its not, but these are all low priced keris, seldom above $1000, most often down around only a couple of hundred dollars. This is not the market that the market controllers are interested in, and for that reason any collector outside Indonesia is safe:- he will never suffer a big loss, simply because he will never even see, let alone be offered, the really high class work.

Bear one thing in mind Gustav:- I have been buying keris in Indonesia for about 40 years; you know who my teachers were; I have close, long term contacts in the keris trade in Solo. What others speculate on, I have seen.

The reason I started to deal in the first place was because I realised very early that it was the only way to gain keris knowledge:- the dealers, the craftsmen, the high level shonks hold all the knowledge, even the elite, experienced collectors and connoisseurs are trudging along in the dust behind them. Have you ever seen an honest book written by a high level Indonesian dealer? No, of course not, and you never will.

You mention a copy of an old sunggingan. Only one Gustav? I've seen dozens --- or more. The people who paint sunggingan wrongkos are the people who paint wayang puppets. They usually have pattern books that have been passed down through generations, not the actual books, but rather the patterns in those books, they sometimes add patterns when they see something that they like, and very rarely they will design a new motif themselves. Probably most of these artists have the pattern and the ability to reproduce an old sunggingan motif if they wish, but mostly they do not wish, because they need to make a living and it is easier to sell the motifs that are currently popular.

In respect of current production of accurate tajongs. This is something I don't know much about. The only current production tajongs I've seen for sale in Central Jawa and East Jawa have been very poor pieces of work that don't look anything like the real thing. I don't doubt for a minute that a competent Javanese/Madurese/Balinese carver could produce an accurate copy if he was given a model to work from. I believe it would be a carver who did the copy, not a m'ranggi or tukang jejeran. I do not know where these good tajongs are coming from, in fact, I can't even remember seeing a photo of one, but that is probably because I don't take a lot of notice of these fringe keris from other areas. Maybe a Jakarta or Surabaya dealer is getting them done in Bali or Lombok, there are extremely talented carvers in both places.

Gustav · 25th April 2016, 11:53 PM

For some afterthoughts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=hunter

A. G. Maisey · 26th April 2016, 08:28 AM

Not quite the same quality but possibly relevant

David · 26th April 2016, 05:02 PM

Perhaps either Gustav or Alan could expand on how these last two posts of this gold hilt from the book Old Javanese Gold or these Nyamba hilts are pertinent to our discussions so far on the original hilt posted. It seems to me that the original post brought two questions into the discussion.
1. A question of material used (is it rhino horn?)
2. A question on judging age based upon the specific ornamental features of the presented hilt.
Certainly these most recent additions to the discussion have nothing to do with the first question, which i tend to agree with Alan is personally of lesser interest to me.
I do believe that this hilt from Old Javanese Gold is most probably from the Mojopahit period, so older than Gustav believes the horn hilt to be (17th century). While it does present a stylized yoni i cannot say that it also presents the lingam in the tumpal at the base of the hilt that Gustav points us to in the horn example. Though the basic form of the buta hilt is similar enough to both Gustav's horn example as well as my more recent wooden ones the specific stylistic ornamental flourishes are not quite the same to either. So i am curious what direction or what further conclusions we can reach by viewing this or Alan's added examples that help us with the initial questions at hand.
Gustav, if you have not obtained Miksic's book yet (as you mention in the thread you linked us to on this gold hilt), he has very little to say about it despite the hilt appearing both on the front and back dust cover, as the full-page chapter lead photo for the Middle and Late Classic Period section of the catalog and once again as a series of three photos showing various sides of the hilt. He does not specifically date the hilt and only writes:
"Its sharp nose and smooth and rather swollen and rounded body are quite similar to those seen in depictions of humans and mythical heroes in shadow puppets (wayang kulit) and in illustrations in other media, such as wayang beber (painted cloth scrolls used in telling stories) and illuminated manuscripts. The monster wears a necklace, originally set in stone."

A. G. Maisey · 27th April 2016, 12:27 AM

Yep, I agree with you David.

A few posts back I considered starting a new thread to discuss all this age & symbolism stuff, but I've had a bit on my plate recently and I didn't do it.

If, as moderator, you have the ability to begin a thread and move these possibly irrelevant posts to it, why not do so? Then Gustav and I and anybody else who felt like it could ramble on about symbols and icons and etc, etc, etc to our hearts content and upset nobody.

But you know the way it is:- you start off talking about the weather to somebody, and before you know where you are you're discussing Einstein's Theory of Relativity, and from there the discussion jumps to the problems involved in restoring steam locomotives --- and availability of good coking coal, and what 7X5 box trailer full of beach sand weighs --- this sort of diversion never stops. That's what happens with non-formal discussions:- they wander all over the place --- and this Forum is a venue for informal discussion, so discussions are bound to get off the tracks from time to time.

On the subject of those hilts I posted pics of:- all three are fairly old, but I have no idea how old, the one with the gemstone bandul around his neck is by far the oldest, if judged on construction and appearance. All are known in Jawa as either nyamba or minat jenggul.

Oh yes --- we cannot have a yoni without a lingga in Hindu, or Hindu-Jawa iconography. This situation could be read as something extremely unlucky. Lingga = male, yoni = female, lingga+yoni = universal stability, one without the other? not good, not good at all. Lots of ways to read this singularity if it intentionally occurred, but basically what you have is the collapse of the cosmos.

So --- if we think we see an intentional lingga by itself, or an intentional yoni by itself, maybe we should pause a moment and ask if we understand what we think we are seeing.

Gustav · 27th April 2016, 01:25 AM

David, regarding the Lingga-Yoni symbols on Keris hilt, an excerpt of my babbling from post #30.

[QUOTE=Gustav]

The upright triangle as form could be expression of Gunungan and/or Kalpataru (the divine three). If together with the oval mirror in it, the range of interpretations widens. Then it could depict a Lotus plant with the blossom in the middle, which as whole can sometimes also be seen as a substitute for the divine tree. Important - Lotus as the base of a figure - the earliest clear depiction of a Mendak is a Lotus (on statue of Bhima/Kertolo in Museum Nasional). Lotus symbolizes the purity of divine descent, symbol of creativity and fertility, which leads to the understanding of the blossom (oval mirror) as Yoni and depiction as female genitals (the male genitals are that of the naked figure, they are placed exactly over the mirror. They sometimes have distinguishable Palang balls and do clearly belong to the shivaitic context. If you wish - when Keris is held in the hand, the Lingga is in the upright position pointing to Yoni (activated so to speak)). One more symbolic layer for the mirror is that of depiction of a Bintulu. Bintulu are often found at the base of East Javanese bronze figures, and have protective function. This all was always more or less clear.

QUOTE]

So, once more, Lingga - with sometimes more clearly distinguishable Palang - is depicted as male organ of the Buta/Rakshasa/Yaksha figure (pointing to the Yoni in the Tumpal), and exactly this Lingga is missing on your more recent examples and on most later Pasisir hilts, like the one attached. And yes - when there is no visible Lingga depicted (like on ALL published figural hilts from 16th/17th cent. or earlier, depicting ARISTOCRATIC characters), there is also no Yoni in the Tumpal. And vice versa. Absolutely logical.

Regarding the hilt from "Old Javanese Gold" - The ornamentation of Bungkul is pretty much the same as on later (?) hilts. As far as I see in the picture, the figure has male organs where we could expect them to appear. A little quiz to the readers, who are still with us - what are two very unusual symbolic/ornamental features found on this hilt? Both can not be found on other demonic figural hilts from early European collections (the adornments at the ears and necklace, "originally set in stone" left aside. Correct me if I am wrong, yet the kind of securing stones at Majapahit Period is well known and was different, with two or four little "claws". And the bordures of the stones are remarkably intact, while the stones are gone). And this is, what leaves me with a question mark, when I look at the depictions of this hilt.

Of course, I am not somebody to criticize John Miksic (I am not sure if description of this hilt is his at all), yet besides the very sloppy dating "1000-1400", which appeared on internet presentations of this book, it is very strange to compare a hilt possibly coming from Majapahit period to Wayang Kulit figures of "humans and mytical heroes" (because there is only one "human" figure from 17th cent., which is Wayang Klitik, the earliest Wayang Kulit "human" ones are even later made), and the old existing Wayang Beber, from Gedompol and Gelaran, are not earlier then 1700. Why is the writer comparing this hilt with much later artefacts, and not art of Majapahit, "1000-1400"?

Alan, you wrote: "Stylistically this hilt seems to be Majapahit." What are the features which allow this dating and don't appear later?

David · 27th April 2016, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If, as moderator, you have the ability to begin a thread and move these possibly irrelevant posts to it, why not do so? Then Gustav and I and anybody else who felt like it could ramble on about symbols and icons and etc, etc, etc to our hearts content and upset nobody.

But you know the way it is:- you start off talking about the weather to somebody, and before you know where you are you're discussing Einstein's Theory of Relativity, and from there the discussion jumps to the problems involved in restoring steam locomotives --- and availability of good coking coal, and what 7X5 box trailer full of beach sand weighs --- this sort of diversion never stops. That's what happens with non-formal discussions:- they wander all over the place --- and this Forum is a venue for informal discussion, so discussions are bound to get off the tracks from time to time.

Alan, a sarcastic response is really not necessary. I was neither chiding you gentlemen for the direction the thread was taking nor trying to curtail your rights as members to wander off to discuss other aspects of hilts or even Einstein's Theory of Relativity if it suits you. After a bit of back and forth on the two questions i mentioned above Gustav posted the Old Javanese Gold cover pictures as an "afterthought" and made no other comment. You then followed with some Nyamba hilts with the comment that they may be "possibly relevant". I then asked if you gentlemen could expand on these ideas, i.e. what is your "afterthought" and how are these "relevant". That is all. Not trying to stifle whatever direction you are taking. You see, i generally say pretty much exactly what i mean. I would ask that you not read any other motivations into my posts. I am mostly just following along with this discussion, not taking sides or trying to promote or disprove any of the presented theories. I am asking questions, perhaps the wrong ones that don't open the door to higher knowledge, but questions no less. In other words, i have no dog in this race.
Gustav, on the description provided in the book itself, i presented it to you for no other reason than that you stated in the linked thread that you did not yet own this book. So i presented the passage so that you would know what had been written there on this hilt. It appears on page 249 beneath 3 rather small photographs of various angles of this hilt. They may have given you a wide date range (1000-1400) on the website, but i can find no place where any dating is applied to this hilt in the book. Alan may be correct. Perhaps i don't understand what i am seeing. The photos are also pretty small in the book, much, much smaller than the close-up images used on the books cover. There is some scroll work in the area where one would expect to find the male organ, but i would have to use a great deal of imagination to see it as such (even when i magnified the region). Still, i concede that might be its symbolic intention. Very hard to tell without larger images.

David · 27th April 2016, 04:58 AM

Gustav, i hope you don't mind that i re-edited your last photo to show more detail.

A. G. Maisey · 27th April 2016, 06:44 AM

David, there is not one breath of sarcasm in what I wrote in post 43.

Not even a whisper.

None. Nil. Nothing.

No sarcasm.

I do regret that you interpreted my remarks as sarcasm, but I assure you that when I do use sarcasm, it is very obvious and usually more than slightly cutting.

What I wrote in post #43 was relaxed, friendly conversation.

I do not like being called a troll.

I do not like being accused of being sarcastic.

I am neither of these things, and in this particular Forum I go out of my way to try not to offend anyone.

I'm out of this discussion.

David · 27th April 2016, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, there is not one breath of sarcasm in what I wrote in post 43.

Not even a whisper.

None. Nil. Nothing.

No sarcasm.

I do regret that you interpreted my remarks as sarcasm, but I assure you that when I do use sarcasm, it is very obvious and usually more than slightly cutting.

What I wrote in post #43 was relaxed, friendly conversation.

I do not like being called a troll.

I do not like being accused of being sarcastic.

I am neither of these things, and in this particular Forum I go out of my way to try not to offend anyone.

I'm out of this discussion.

Alan, taking offense to my suggestion of sarcasm is also not really necessary. I am completely fine with your insistence that whatever the tone was with which you responded to me was not sarcasm. Call it what you will. I am not attached to names. But no matter what you want to call it i certainly was not offended by it.

But i certainly never made any statement or accusation of you trolling this site and don't see how you managed to go there in your response. I am afraid that it is you who seem to be offended in this case, and i do regret that you could find the simple one line suggestion in my response that a sarcastic response was unnecessary something to take such offense about.

A. G. Maisey · 28th April 2016, 12:15 AM

Thank you for your clarification David.

You may not have been offended by my remarks in post 45, but your initial reading of what I had written understood my remarks to be sarcastic.

If you assessed what I had written as sarcastic, others would too.

Since in my opinion there was not even a hint of sarcasm in what I had written, and since I do try very hard to keep my posts free of all and any remarks that could cause offence or criticism, it is clear to me that when I write in a relaxed, friendly style, my comments tend to come across as being delivered in a manner that is not intended.

In this thread this misinterpretation has occurred on two occasions, once in your post 45, and once in Gustav's post 27, where Gustav made comments which indicated that he considered that I was engaging in troll-like behaviour.

Two misinterpretations by two different people indicates to me that even when I am trying to be relaxed and friendly, those who read my words attach a totally different intent to them.

Clearly I am at fault, not you, not Gustav.

Accordingly I will not be posting any further comments to this thread.

rasdan · 30th April 2016, 03:50 AM

Guys, as a an outsider (not a participant in this discussion) I didn't find Alan's remark can be regarded as what has been accused. He is just raising some of his concerns and sharing his knowledge with us. It is quite sad that this discussion ended this way. I was really enjoying it. I hope Alan will continue to contribute to this forum and I hope we can continue this discussion in the future.

22nd April 2016, 11:13 AM	#31
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Purely illustrative attachment to my previous post, the last picture is a base of a pillar from mosque in Demak, 15th/16th cent., as an example for a feature similar to one found on a base of hilts: Attached Images

22nd April 2016, 12:13 PM	#32
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey] Any reading of the symbolism to be found in the Javanese keris must be done from a base of Javanese understanding within the applicable time frame. We cannot take mainstream religious understandings and expect that these can be used to understand the way in which beliefs, symbols and practices were understood in Hindu-Jawa. So, although we may believe that it is valid to interpret some symbol according to an understanding held in a different place, and at a different time, we must question this belief if it does not fit comfortably with the beliefs and practices that were current in Jawa prior to Islamic domination. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we not discussing this matter in terms of 16th century Jawa? When did the Islamic domination of Jawa really start to get rolling? QUOTE] In the book "Art of Indonesia/Pusaka" (Periplus 1998, there are many editions of this book) there is an article by Suwati Kartiwa with K.R.T. Hardjonagoro. On page 173 a wall plaque is depicted, dated 1711. The text says: "In Cirebon, one of the oldest cities in Java, wooden plaques hang on house walls near the entrance door to protect the household from evil influences. Cirebon art combines motifs from various sources: the figure on this example has an elephant's head like the Hindu god Ganesa, and stands on a cloudlike ground reminiscent of south Chinese art of Ming Dynasty." So it is well possible the people at that time were aware of the function of Ganesa as master and remover of obstacles. See also plate LXIII from van der Hoop, Indonesische Siermotieven. There are many such examples of elements (and conceptions) of hindu art living further in the art of 16th/17th cent., especially in coastal cities, yet also elsewhere. There are the famous wall plaques from Keraton Kasepuhan in Cirebon. A relief from Mosque in Mantingan depicts a completely scroll-covered ape and a crab, which corresponds to the Setubandha episode from Hikayat Seri Rama. Museum Nasional has a gold plaque depicting this episode, dated 14th/15th cent., East Java. An interesting coincidence - the scroll covered body could be the same tendence of "hiding" a figure exposed on old hilt of David http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=buta+hilt. As I understand, for some people this is a sign of somewhat later stage in development, yet we are able to found figures with limbs merging into foliage already in the art of Majapahit (Eggebrecht, Versunkene Königreiche Indonesiens, 1995: cat nr. 149, Museum Nasional, Inv. Nr. 422b). We have many symbols from Candi Sukuh depicted on gateway of mosque in Sendang Duwur such as the Garuda wings and the "Rainbow" arch with Kala and two deer heads substituting Makara. In fact, I think the coastal cities with their elements of Muslim Chinese art influenced art of Majapahit for some time bevor the collapse of Majapahit, and symbols/motifs and their meanings from the art of Majapahit lived forth for some time in coastal cities after Majapahit ceased to exist. There almost never is a "pure" state of something. This, of course is nothing new, yet important in context of these figural hilts. Of course at some time some elements ceased to be understood as symbols, became just motifs, and then disappeared. This development could in some cases be a possibility for a rough estimation of age. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 22nd April 2016 at 02:54 PM.

23rd April 2016, 02:35 PM	#38
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Alan, I will not pounder about how exactly the first line in your previous post was meant. I never ever did speculate about European "knowledge", I actually don't understand what it means. David wrote: "I don't see any particular indicators in the style of this buta hilt that would definitively place it in the 17th century", and all I did was trying to show, why this hilt most probably is a 17th cent. hilt. For my part, there is no "knowledge", just comparative analysis. For such, of course, you should have proper sources. When there is no interest in old blades from European museums, why blades inspired by these did surface, possibly hilts, and even at least one copy of a 17th cent. Sunggingan I am aware of? You wrote: "The concept that craftsmen can produce convincing keris, or convincing hilts, or convincing anything else from photos is another flight of fancy. They simply cannot, but the people who are at the top of the keris industry have no problem at all of obtaining the necessary examples of works that they want copied (...)" I see here no big contradiction with my post: " Now the Indonesian carvers have reached very high level in reproducing Tajong hilt. The source of this improvement is the book "Spirit of Wood", with its detailed drawings, and surely genuine examples held in hand, because some things you understand only having the object in the hand." I have absolutely no wish to become involved in Indonesian Keris world, yet I simply notice its offshoots in European and American auction houses, dealer catalogues, collections and publications. Last edited by Gustav; 23rd April 2016 at 03:24 PM.

24th April 2016, 03:31 AM	#39
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Gustav, my first line should have read as did my initial response, forget the "will not", and substitute "reserve". To reserve comment is to delay comment. Some of your speculation and interpretation I would prefer not to comment on. But I'm happy to exchange comment on some other things. My notes on sunggingan (2881) read:- "The wr. has a sub-motif of stupas & foliage overlaid by gilt lines which are trunks & branches of trees & possibly a ground line" This is how I saw it with it in my hand. I could be wrong, but in the absence of the object in question it is pointless discuss it. The way I did the photos on all these keris was not sufficiently technically advanced to permit a clear rendition of a very faint sub-motif. As to "European knowledge". Since very early days there has been continuing comment by people from Europe, and from societies founded in the European tradition, about the keris. Its not just Europeans, but other people who have some interest, or some training, academic or otherwise, who think they have something to contribute to the ongoing discussion. I must include myself in this group, as well as probably the most careful and accurate of all outside commentators, Garrett & Bronwen Solyom. Some of the commentary generated by the outsiders has been excellent and has made available knowledge and understandings that are little known in Indonesia itself, or have been forgotten. Some other commentary has been somewhere between silly and ludicrous. However, whether that outside commentary has fallen into the "good" basket, or the "bad" basket has made not the slightest difference at all to the keris community in Jawa. I have selected Jawa specifically because this is the centre of the keris belief system and tradition, and also because I know the situation there very well.. I believe I understand how you intend your age estimates to be taken, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are looking at a minuscule sample of hilts of a known age, you look at the features in these hilts, then you compare with other hilts that you know to be younger. Based on this you form the opinion that certain features appear in the known older hilts, that do not appear in the known younger hilts. I personally have a little bit of difficulty in subscribing to this methodology because the features that you point out in older hilts, I have seen in hilts that have been produced since 1980. These very recent hilts are obviously not at all old and could never be confused with old hilts, but to my mind the fact that design features in known old hilts are being repeated in known new hilts demonstrates a continuing tradition. Thus, I question whether we can use design as an indicator of age, or whether these design features are in fact styles that come from different sources or areas of belief, or that have some other unknown reason for variation. I do understand analysis. It is the foundation stone of how I have earnt my living for most of my life. What I know about analysis is this:- to draw conclusions we need a sufficiently large population from which to draw the test sample, then we need to factor in the statistical error. We do have a sufficiently large population of new hilts, we do not have a sufficiently large population of old hilts. Statistically the possibility of an incorrect conclusion is enormous. We can make an observation, but we cannot draw a conclusion. Gustav, it is beyond doubt that museums in Europe do hold some very old keris, as you know, I have seen, handled, and photographed some of these keris held by a number of museums. In some cases the keris that I looked at were documented, and what I found to be extremely interesting was that these keris that were sometimes several hundred years old could easily be mixed in with a batch of high quality, current production keris from the best Javanese and Madurese makers, and no collector that I know would be able to tell which keris was 200 years old, and which keris was 200 days old. If we raise the bar just a little, and we have one of the people who are at the top of the Indonesian keris trade put one of the truly excellent current makers on his payroll, then give him a very high quality keris to copy, supervise the production, and then have old-style kinatah work done, the result will be a keris that perhaps only three or four people in the entire world will know to be a recently produced keris. It was not the maker who produced the forgery, it was the man he was working for who used the maker as a tool. This same man, or one of his group, will introduce this keris into the local market, probably in Jakarta and it will sell for a price that nobody outside that local market would ever pay. We are not talking a few hundred dollars, or even a few thousand dollars, we are talking tens of thousands of dollars. This is not to say that keris that pretend to be what they are not do not enter the market outside Indonesia. Of course they do. Perhaps three times a week on average I have photos of this type of keris sent to me for comment and advice. Sometimes it is easy to see that I'm looking at a ring-in, other times its not, but these are all low priced keris, seldom above $1000, most often down around only a couple of hundred dollars. This is not the market that the market controllers are interested in, and for that reason any collector outside Indonesia is safe:- he will never suffer a big loss, simply because he will never even see, let alone be offered, the really high class work. Bear one thing in mind Gustav:- I have been buying keris in Indonesia for about 40 years; you know who my teachers were; I have close, long term contacts in the keris trade in Solo. What others speculate on, I have seen. The reason I started to deal in the first place was because I realised very early that it was the only way to gain keris knowledge:- the dealers, the craftsmen, the high level shonks hold all the knowledge, even the elite, experienced collectors and connoisseurs are trudging along in the dust behind them. Have you ever seen an honest book written by a high level Indonesian dealer? No, of course not, and you never will. You mention a copy of an old sunggingan. Only one Gustav? I've seen dozens --- or more. The people who paint sunggingan wrongkos are the people who paint wayang puppets. They usually have pattern books that have been passed down through generations, not the actual books, but rather the patterns in those books, they sometimes add patterns when they see something that they like, and very rarely they will design a new motif themselves. Probably most of these artists have the pattern and the ability to reproduce an old sunggingan motif if they wish, but mostly they do not wish, because they need to make a living and it is easier to sell the motifs that are currently popular. In respect of current production of accurate tajongs. This is something I don't know much about. The only current production tajongs I've seen for sale in Central Jawa and East Jawa have been very poor pieces of work that don't look anything like the real thing. I don't doubt for a minute that a competent Javanese/Madurese/Balinese carver could produce an accurate copy if he was given a model to work from. I believe it would be a carver who did the copy, not a m'ranggi or tukang jejeran. I do not know where these good tajongs are coming from, in fact, I can't even remember seeing a photo of one, but that is probably because I don't take a lot of notice of these fringe keris from other areas. Maybe a Jakarta or Surabaya dealer is getting them done in Bali or Lombok, there are extremely talented carvers in both places. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 24th April 2016 at 06:08 AM.

25th April 2016, 11:53 PM	#40
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	For some afterthoughts: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=hunter Attached Images

23rd April 2016, 12:25 AM	#33
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Well, continuing the journey a few thoughts about the four edges visible in the deep cuts between the triangles. These edges are a feature, which indeed disappear in later Pasisir figural hilts. They are very good distinguishable as a socket/pedestal of the figure in Early Gowa style gold hilts, actually in all early hilts depicting an aristocratic character (Vienna, Munich). The hilt in Vienna (before 1607) still has the original paint, and the socket is painted in dark red - it perhaps insinuates the Majapahit style brick architecture. These four edges, sometimes still as socket/pedestal are seen in most 16th/17th cent. figural hilts with demonic naked figures. They sometimes are practically indistinguishable in pictures, yet clearly seen when held in hand. This makes them hardly reproducible today, because carvers in Indonesia are still working from pictures, I suppose (I will write in a separate post about it later). Yet these edges continue to appear in Cirebon and Tegal hilts of other styles at the typical "waist"! It is a very good example for a certain feature ceasing to appear in original context and wandering to a new, currently appearing one. In figural Rakshasa/Yaksha hilts the development is very clear - the cuts between the triangles are closing, the edges in the cuts disappear, the individual symbols within the triangles disappear, the triangles become all the same size, at the end we have a continuous Tumpal board. A speculation about the socket/pedestal in context of naked Rakshasa/Yaksha figures - perhaps there is a possibility to interpret it as a rock, and then, to regard the whole ensemble in the context of a mountain hermit (which as a form of religious existence is very popular at the end of Majapahit rule as well as in early Islamic period until Mataram II - it really is a junction). Here I remember the sheath of Nr. 2881 from Dresden. On it a mountain scenery is depicted, with many small buildings, indistinguishable in photographs, which I called "Candi like" back then. Now I understand - these most probably are hermitages. Mount Penanggungan and many other were full of them. Also in front of Gandar (where Gandhik of Keris rests behind, left edge in the picture) of both Viennese and Sendai Sunggingan there is a depiction of a very simple architectonic structure with roof, at exactly the same place - now I also understand it as hermitage, becouse of Mountain scenery on both Sunggingan (depicted is the Sunggingan from Vienna, before 1607). Actually the same scenery is depicted on gateway of Sendang Duwur - mountains with many small caves/buildings, which possibly are hermitages. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 23rd April 2016 at 09:00 AM.

23rd April 2016, 08:50 AM	#34
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thank you for your detailed responses to my queries Gustav, I believe I now understand reasonably well the foundations of your opinions. I'm not going to work through what you have written and address every point you have made, but I will comment on what I see as the most important elements in what you have written. My comments will be very brief, but I am more than happy to answer any direct question that either you or anybody else may raise. Post # 30. The Tumpal The present day conventional understanding of the tumpal is that it is representative of the Gunungan. The Gunungan is representative of the Cosmic Mountain, which can also be taken as Mt. Meru, home of the Gods and the waiting place of the ancestors. Siwa lives on Mt. Meru, so Mt. Meru can also represent Siwa. The Balinese shrine form is known as a Meru. The lower slopes of Mt. Meru are covered with foliage, so a tumpal or Gunungan that carries foliate motifs (lung-lungan) is an intensification of the reference to Mt. Meru. Often Bhoma (Kala) will appear with a tumpal-like surmount of foliage, this reference can be read as the uniting of earth and water to produce growth, an extremely important matter for an agricultural people. (Bhoma is the son of Wisnu and Basundari = son of earth and water = symbolic of growth and fertility) The Bhoma, sometimes called Kala, is a representation of the son of Wisnu and Basundari, and thus is the child of water and earth. The joining of water and earth results in the growth of plants, which in a society dependent upon agriculture equates to prosperity. In Sanscrit, Bhoma means "born of the earth". Thus Bhoma can be taken to represent the growth of vegetation. However, Bhoma should also be read as a protective symbol. The horizontal "lingga/yoni" that we believe we can sometimes see in the base of a tumpal can also be interpreted as a bintulu, which in this context can be interpreted as symbolic of Bhoma. From the historical perspective, the lung-lungan motifs (foliate motifs) are probably a development of one of the very basic Javanese motifs, the scroll. The horizontal "lingga/yoni" is actually a Javanese representation of the conventional vertical lingga/yoni, along with all that this implies. The lingga : yoni symbolism represents the indivisible nature of male and female principles inherent in all creation. The balance of male : female is present in all Hindu ideals, and there cannot be one in the absence of the other, thus where the male principle (lingga) is found in combination with the female principle (yoni) we have a representation of creation and of a community. The very foundations of life and society. The Gunungan of the wayang (also known as the Kayon) is a polysymbol that represents the Cosmic Mountain and by association the dwelling place of the gods, Mt. Meru, and also the Kalpataru Tree, or Tree of Life. So, in fact, the Gunungan can also be understood as the Kalpataru Tree. The very first thing that we should seek to understand when we set out to interpret Javanese symbolism, whether in the keris or in some other context is the Gunungan. Possibly the best beginning for this is:- Sumukti Sumastuti , "Gunungan, The Javanese Cosmic Mountain", A dissertation submitted to the Graduate Division of the University of Hawaii in partial fulfilment of the requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in Anthropology, December 1997. I am sorry to say I am not a big fan of some of Karsten Jensen's ideas. Post # 32 Gustav, I think we might have another misunderstanding here:- you have quoted something I wrote that referred to the interpretation of symbols to be found in the keris, and then provided some comment on the influence of Hindu culture in Jawa following the collapse of the political entities that adhered to a Hindu-Buddhist belief system. Yes, of course China. Have a look at Pekalongan. I have no argument with what you have written. How could I have? All this is common knowledge, its "Jawa 101" so to speak. The Javanese courts have never let go completely of a lot of the trappings of the Hindu-Buddhist period, and Hindu influences permeate ordinary Javanese society even today. China? Javanese rulers married Chinese women and exchanged gifts with Chinese rulers. Chinese influences permeate Javanese culture and society just as do the influences of many other cultures My comments were directed at interpretation of symbols. In simple terms I said that when we seek to interpret the meaning of a symbol we need to interpret it in accordance with the relevant place and time. The meaning of symbols depends upon the place and time where the symbol was used, the same symbol may not have the same meaning when it is used several hundred years apart, or several thousand miles apart. In fact, in Javanese symbolism, the same symbol may not have the same meaning in two different contexts, even though these contexts apply in the same place and at the same time. One of the problems in understanding Javanese symbolism is that it is polysymbolism, ie, the same symbol can be understood in different ways depending upon context and intent. Thus, we cannot just look at the symbol and assume that it has a constant meaning, we need to penetrate both context and intent and then try to interpret what the symbol is intended to say. This makes Javanese symbolism very, very difficult to come to terms with. Sometimes we simply cannot understand what a symbol is really intended to mean. Post # 33 Gustav, I would prefer to reserve comment of this post, nevertheless, I greatly appreciate the effort you have made to respond to my questions, thank you for clarifying my understanding.

23rd April 2016, 02:00 PM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Gustav, in respect of post #33, yes, it was interesting. Very. This is precisely the reason I will make no comment. As to the production of very good copies of older blades, the situation is exactly as I have said on many occasions:- at the production level these keris are not intended as forgeries or fakes, in fact, what we see here is the continuation of a tradition as old keris culture itself. Current era makers who have sufficient talent copying the work of makers from previous times. This is regarded as a tribute to the previous maker. However, when those copies get into the hands of certain people, they magically age by a couple of hundred years. All this speculation about photos and interest in European museums and European "knowledge" is just a load of nonsense. The keris community in Indonesia has no interest at all in the opinions of people outside their own circle of collaborators and targets. The concept that craftsmen can produce convincing keris, or convincing hilts, or convincing anything else from photos is another flight of fancy. They simply cannot, but the people who are at the top of the keris industry have no problem at all of obtaining the necessary examples of works that they want copied, and these copies are then sold on the local market for prices that no European, American or other person who was not a part of the culture would pay. It might be a bitter pill to swallow for some people, but the Keris World in Indonesia has not one iota of interest in what people outside that world think or do, and on the very rare occasions when they do learn some of the ideas held by those outside the culture it usually has either one of two results:- derisive smiles accompanied by cutting remarks, or anger. Think about it like this Gustav:- if you had a spare $50,000 what would you do with it? If a businessman from Jakarta had a spare $50,000, what might he do with it? Its a different world Gustav, and you cannot possibly understand it unless you have lived it.

26th April 2016, 08:28 AM	#41
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Not quite the same quality but possibly relevant Attached Images

26th April 2016, 05:02 PM	#42
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Perhaps either Gustav or Alan could expand on how these last two posts of this gold hilt from the book Old Javanese Gold or these Nyamba hilts are pertinent to our discussions so far on the original hilt posted. It seems to me that the original post brought two questions into the discussion. 1. A question of material used (is it rhino horn?) 2. A question on judging age based upon the specific ornamental features of the presented hilt. Certainly these most recent additions to the discussion have nothing to do with the first question, which i tend to agree with Alan is personally of lesser interest to me. I do believe that this hilt from Old Javanese Gold is most probably from the Mojopahit period, so older than Gustav believes the horn hilt to be (17th century). While it does present a stylized yoni i cannot say that it also presents the lingam in the tumpal at the base of the hilt that Gustav points us to in the horn example. Though the basic form of the buta hilt is similar enough to both Gustav's horn example as well as my more recent wooden ones the specific stylistic ornamental flourishes are not quite the same to either. So i am curious what direction or what further conclusions we can reach by viewing this or Alan's added examples that help us with the initial questions at hand. Gustav, if you have not obtained Miksic's book yet (as you mention in the thread you linked us to on this gold hilt), he has very little to say about it despite the hilt appearing both on the front and back dust cover, as the full-page chapter lead photo for the Middle and Late Classic Period section of the catalog and once again as a series of three photos showing various sides of the hilt. He does not specifically date the hilt and only writes: "Its sharp nose and smooth and rather swollen and rounded body are quite similar to those seen in depictions of humans and mythical heroes in shadow puppets (wayang kulit) and in illustrations in other media, such as wayang beber (painted cloth scrolls used in telling stories) and illuminated manuscripts. The monster wears a necklace, originally set in stone."

27th April 2016, 12:27 AM	#43
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Yep, I agree with you David. A few posts back I considered starting a new thread to discuss all this age & symbolism stuff, but I've had a bit on my plate recently and I didn't do it. If, as moderator, you have the ability to begin a thread and move these possibly irrelevant posts to it, why not do so? Then Gustav and I and anybody else who felt like it could ramble on about symbols and icons and etc, etc, etc to our hearts content and upset nobody. But you know the way it is:- you start off talking about the weather to somebody, and before you know where you are you're discussing Einstein's Theory of Relativity, and from there the discussion jumps to the problems involved in restoring steam locomotives --- and availability of good coking coal, and what 7X5 box trailer full of beach sand weighs --- this sort of diversion never stops. That's what happens with non-formal discussions:- they wander all over the place --- and this Forum is a venue for informal discussion, so discussions are bound to get off the tracks from time to time. On the subject of those hilts I posted pics of:- all three are fairly old, but I have no idea how old, the one with the gemstone bandul around his neck is by far the oldest, if judged on construction and appearance. All are known in Jawa as either nyamba or minat jenggul. Oh yes --- we cannot have a yoni without a lingga in Hindu, or Hindu-Jawa iconography. This situation could be read as something extremely unlucky. Lingga = male, yoni = female, lingga+yoni = universal stability, one without the other? not good, not good at all. Lots of ways to read this singularity if it intentionally occurred, but basically what you have is the collapse of the cosmos. So --- if we think we see an intentional lingga by itself, or an intentional yoni by itself, maybe we should pause a moment and ask if we understand what we think we are seeing.

27th April 2016, 01:25 AM	#44
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	David, regarding the Lingga-Yoni symbols on Keris hilt, an excerpt of my babbling from post #30. [QUOTE=Gustav] The upright triangle as form could be expression of Gunungan and/or Kalpataru (the divine three). If together with the oval mirror in it, the range of interpretations widens. Then it could depict a Lotus plant with the blossom in the middle, which as whole can sometimes also be seen as a substitute for the divine tree. Important - Lotus as the base of a figure - the earliest clear depiction of a Mendak is a Lotus (on statue of Bhima/Kertolo in Museum Nasional). Lotus symbolizes the purity of divine descent, symbol of creativity and fertility, which leads to the understanding of the blossom (oval mirror) as Yoni and depiction as female genitals (the male genitals are that of the naked figure, they are placed exactly over the mirror. They sometimes have distinguishable Palang balls and do clearly belong to the shivaitic context. If you wish - when Keris is held in the hand, the Lingga is in the upright position pointing to Yoni (activated so to speak)). One more symbolic layer for the mirror is that of depiction of a Bintulu. Bintulu are often found at the base of East Javanese bronze figures, and have protective function. This all was always more or less clear. QUOTE] So, once more, Lingga - with sometimes more clearly distinguishable Palang - is depicted as male organ of the Buta/Rakshasa/Yaksha figure (pointing to the Yoni in the Tumpal), and exactly this Lingga is missing on your more recent examples and on most later Pasisir hilts, like the one attached. And yes - when there is no visible Lingga depicted (like on ALL published figural hilts from 16th/17th cent. or earlier, depicting ARISTOCRATIC characters), there is also no Yoni in the Tumpal. And vice versa. Absolutely logical. Regarding the hilt from "Old Javanese Gold" - The ornamentation of Bungkul is pretty much the same as on later (?) hilts. As far as I see in the picture, the figure has male organs where we could expect them to appear. A little quiz to the readers, who are still with us - what are two very unusual symbolic/ornamental features found on this hilt? Both can not be found on other demonic figural hilts from early European collections (the adornments at the ears and necklace, "originally set in stone" left aside. Correct me if I am wrong, yet the kind of securing stones at Majapahit Period is well known and was different, with two or four little "claws". And the bordures of the stones are remarkably intact, while the stones are gone). And this is, what leaves me with a question mark, when I look at the depictions of this hilt. Of course, I am not somebody to criticize John Miksic (I am not sure if description of this hilt is his at all), yet besides the very sloppy dating "1000-1400", which appeared on internet presentations of this book, it is very strange to compare a hilt possibly coming from Majapahit period to Wayang Kulit figures of "humans and mytical heroes" (because there is only one "human" figure from 17th cent., which is Wayang Klitik, the earliest Wayang Kulit "human" ones are even later made), and the old existing Wayang Beber, from Gedompol and Gelaran, are not earlier then 1700. Why is the writer comparing this hilt with much later artefacts, and not art of Majapahit, "1000-1400"? Alan, you wrote: "Stylistically this hilt seems to be Majapahit." What are the features which allow this dating and don't appear later? Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 27th April 2016 at 03:09 AM.

27th April 2016, 04:58 AM	#46
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Gustav, i hope you don't mind that i re-edited your last photo to show more detail. Attached Images

27th April 2016, 06:44 AM	#47
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	David, there is not one breath of sarcasm in what I wrote in post 43. Not even a whisper. None. Nil. Nothing. No sarcasm. I do regret that you interpreted my remarks as sarcasm, but I assure you that when I do use sarcasm, it is very obvious and usually more than slightly cutting. What I wrote in post #43 was relaxed, friendly conversation. I do not like being called a troll. I do not like being accused of being sarcastic. I am neither of these things, and in this particular Forum I go out of my way to try not to offend anyone. I'm out of this discussion.

28th April 2016, 12:15 AM	#49
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thank you for your clarification David. You may not have been offended by my remarks in post 45, but your initial reading of what I had written understood my remarks to be sarcastic. If you assessed what I had written as sarcastic, others would too. Since in my opinion there was not even a hint of sarcasm in what I had written, and since I do try very hard to keep my posts free of all and any remarks that could cause offence or criticism, it is clear to me that when I write in a relaxed, friendly style, my comments tend to come across as being delivered in a manner that is not intended. In this thread this misinterpretation has occurred on two occasions, once in your post 45, and once in Gustav's post 27, where Gustav made comments which indicated that he considered that I was engaging in troll-like behaviour. Two misinterpretations by two different people indicates to me that even when I am trying to be relaxed and friendly, those who read my words attach a totally different intent to them. Clearly I am at fault, not you, not Gustav. Accordingly I will not be posting any further comments to this thread.

30th April 2016, 03:50 AM	#50
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Guys, as a an outsider (not a participant in this discussion) I didn't find Alan's remark can be regarded as what has been accused. He is just raising some of his concerns and sharing his knowledge with us. It is quite sad that this discussion ended this way. I was really enjoying it. I hope Alan will continue to contribute to this forum and I hope we can continue this discussion in the future.