Question on tulwar blade construction - Page 2

Pukka Bundook · 18th January 2016, 05:32 AM

Ah Eric,

I quite agree with joined Wootz blades. The ingots were often too small for a complete blade and so were joined. This was common practice with Wootz.

But joining dissimilar metals sound dodgy at best.
In this, your questions are my questions as well!

I am not a person who has to be right in what I say or think. If I am wrong I am wrong, but it still looks like some of these are repairs carried out with whatever was available at the time, and one Is falling apart...

Best wishes,
Richard.

estcrh · 18th January 2016, 05:57 AM

Cousin of the tulwar known as kirach or karach and it is characterized by the slightly down curving blade with the edge on the concave side and the down curving spine with a false edge.

Quote:

The blade is 32 inches long with 10 inches false edge forged from good Indian Damascus wootz (crystaline) steel, marked with armory marks on both sides as well as on the spine and made in the construction known as scarf welding. Scarf welding was done by welding two ingots of steel in or around the upper third part of the blade, in order to provide the blade with both strength and flexibility. It was a common technique since many centuries and found on both Indian and European quality swords. Here the welding point is clearly seen in the close ups as a darker semicircle.

RSWORD · 18th January 2016, 12:54 PM

The primary reason you see a scarf weld that is done towards the handle is due to the difficulty of forging wootz at the longer lengths. To draw out a long blade requires immense skill. You also run the risk of the material being brittle if not controlled perfectly. Plus, you have the expense involved. So it was quite common, as can be seen in the pictures, for the tang and first bit of blade to be a homogeneous steel and then the wootz welded to that. Not only does it make a strong join it is now less prone to being brittle and breaking. When you start getting to the middle of the blade and onward it seems less likely to be manufactured this way and more likely a repair. One observation is that most scarf welds I have seen that are located near the handle are done in an arc or semi circle and not a straight line. While not a blade smith or welder I would think this gives you the best possible join of the two materials.

ariel · 18th January 2016, 10:06 PM

Very good comment!
If I may add something: some wootz ingots were too small to suffice for the entire blade. That' s why we occasionally see scarf-welded long blades composed of two distinct wootz patterns.
This is admittedly rare and the previous comment covers 99% of composite cases.

Pukka Bundook · 19th January 2016, 03:17 AM

Ariel,

That's what I said at the top of this page.

Eric,

Here is a poor and old photo of the mended blade, the only photo I have at present. This is a very old mend, as all was covered with the same amount of rust.

The second picture are of the laminations as they showed after cleaning, but these are Not of the break area.
If you wish a close-up of the break I will oblige in due course.

All the best,
Richard.

ariel · 19th January 2016, 05:13 AM

Sorry Richard:-((((
I typed it early in the morning, got a phone call, ran to work and completely forgot to post it. At the end of the day I found it, did not realize that other people had their say and pushed the button...
No offence or plagiarism was meant.
Glad we agree.
Ariel

Pukka Bundook · 19th January 2016, 07:24 AM

Ariel,

Absolutely no offense taken! I was just ribbing you, that's all!
We have known each other too long to give or take offense.

best regards,
R.

A. G. Maisey · 19th January 2016, 08:26 AM

There are several ways in which to do a scarf weld, but the method shown in post 15 is not one of them, this is an inserted weld.

Scarf welding involves upsetting the ends of the two pieces of material to be joined in order to make them thicker, in the most common method you then forge a taper on these two thickened pieces of material, take the weld, and forge down to size.

The weld is taken by heating both pieces of material separately, then placing the tapered faces together on the anvil. It makes life easier if you have your striker hold one piece of material and you hold the other piece.

The result is a longish tapered weld joint in the finished job when viewed side on.

Some methods use a sort of cup and ball overlap, or some other way of assisting the precise location of the pieces to be welded when you take them out of the fire.

A properly executed scarf weld is a very strong joint.

The axe shown in post 25 does not use a scarf weld, this method of axe construction was quite common in 19th century and earlier axes across the world.

19th January 2016, 03:17 AM	#35
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ariel, That's what I said at the top of this page. Eric, Here is a poor and old photo of the mended blade, the only photo I have at present. This is a very old mend, as all was covered with the same amount of rust. The second picture are of the laminations as they showed after cleaning, but these are Not of the break area. If you wish a close-up of the break I will oblige in due course. All the best, Richard. Attached Images

18th January 2016, 05:32 AM	#31
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ah Eric, I quite agree with joined Wootz blades. The ingots were often too small for a complete blade and so were joined. This was common practice with Wootz. But joining dissimilar metals sound dodgy at best. In this, your questions are my questions as well! I am not a person who has to be right in what I say or think. If I am wrong I am wrong, but it still looks like some of these are repairs carried out with whatever was available at the time, and one Is falling apart... Best wishes, Richard.

18th January 2016, 12:54 PM	#33
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	The primary reason you see a scarf weld that is done towards the handle is due to the difficulty of forging wootz at the longer lengths. To draw out a long blade requires immense skill. You also run the risk of the material being brittle if not controlled perfectly. Plus, you have the expense involved. So it was quite common, as can be seen in the pictures, for the tang and first bit of blade to be a homogeneous steel and then the wootz welded to that. Not only does it make a strong join it is now less prone to being brittle and breaking. When you start getting to the middle of the blade and onward it seems less likely to be manufactured this way and more likely a repair. One observation is that most scarf welds I have seen that are located near the handle are done in an arc or semi circle and not a straight line. While not a blade smith or welder I would think this gives you the best possible join of the two materials.

18th January 2016, 10:06 PM	#34
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very good comment! If I may add something: some wootz ingots were too small to suffice for the entire blade. That' s why we occasionally see scarf-welded long blades composed of two distinct wootz patterns. This is admittedly rare and the previous comment covers 99% of composite cases.

19th January 2016, 05:13 AM	#36
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry Richard:-(((( I typed it early in the morning, got a phone call, ran to work and completely forgot to post it. At the end of the day I found it, did not realize that other people had their say and pushed the button... No offence or plagiarism was meant. Glad we agree. Ariel

19th January 2016, 07:24 AM	#37
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ariel, Absolutely no offense taken! I was just ribbing you, that's all! We have known each other too long to give or take offense. best regards, R.

19th January 2016, 08:26 AM	#38
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	There are several ways in which to do a scarf weld, but the method shown in post 15 is not one of them, this is an inserted weld. Scarf welding involves upsetting the ends of the two pieces of material to be joined in order to make them thicker, in the most common method you then forge a taper on these two thickened pieces of material, take the weld, and forge down to size. The weld is taken by heating both pieces of material separately, then placing the tapered faces together on the anvil. It makes life easier if you have your striker hold one piece of material and you hold the other piece. The result is a longish tapered weld joint in the finished job when viewed side on. Some methods use a sort of cup and ball overlap, or some other way of assisting the precise location of the pieces to be welded when you take them out of the fire. A properly executed scarf weld is a very strong joint. The axe shown in post 25 does not use a scarf weld, this method of axe construction was quite common in 19th century and earlier axes across the world.