A Unique Kattar?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hey Rand,

Yes I agree, the hilt is quite a bit older than the blade. Its an interesting katar, I wish I could examine it, hands on.

Ward, thank you very much for the new pictures, you have a lovely katar. How old do you estimate it to be? Is there any indication from where the blade is, other than from a sword?

Maybe a new thread should be started with south Indian katars, so we don’t drown Tom’s thread with other katars.

[Tomb22]

Gentlemen:
Thank you for your input and consideration. It is most enlightening.

I love the pictures that you provided for comparison and demonstration. All of them very interesting and beautiful. Jens, the one with the tabjore hilt is exquisite. Regarding another thread, it is up to you guys as to what you think is best for the forum. As far as I am personally concerned, I don't mind at all the various pictures and discussion.

Based on Rand and Jen's thoughts about age of the hilt and blade and then looking at it up close, it does seem like two different times. The Tiger/deer seems a little finer drawn compared to the chisel of the hilt. Also, the dark background of the Tiger seems to be not only much more shallow than the hilt but also a different texture.

I am attaching a couple more pictures of the riveted flange area to try and show the rivets from a more horizontal perspective and a few others.

Concerning the piercings, it seems like they are a little different than the piercings on Ward's piece?? His and some of the others seem to be somewhat decorative. Mine doesn't seem decorative to me.

Here is my thought/question: Since the hilt appears to be chiseled, is it possible that the piercing is to facilitate the chiseling? What comes to mind is when someone is quarrying rock of some sort. They to drill holes and either put in explosives or water (to freeze and expand) to help break off the rock. Under this scenario, I was wondering if the piercing helped to make it easier to break of the metal?? Some of the piercings do not "pierce." They don't go all the way through.

[Tomb22]

Here are a couple more pictures. I added a few more of blade. I have seen in other posts concerning cleaning the blade to get the rust, dirt etc off. Do you have any suggestions? I know that I probably shouldn't do anything to the koftgari?? If I clean the blade, does that affect its value? Is there something that can be put on it to protect it? Both the koftgari and the blade.

In a previous post, Jim suggested maybe the age from the Tipu Sultan era? That was exciting to think about but, how does the two different ages play into that? And, whether or not, Tipu Sultan -from almost everyone's comments, it certainly seems to be a ceremonial/court weapon.

Again, I appreciate your interest and comments.

Best Regards
Tom

[Robert]

I have seen and used small holes like this to help secure enamel on jewelry. Maybe this piece was enameled at one time? I might also suggest that if there is a pattern to the holes that go all the way through that they may at one time have had gold or silver pins in them also another way to help secure enameling.

Robert

[Tomb22]

Hi Robert,
Thanks for the input. Someone else mentioned using the holes to secure silver. Being such a neophyte, I have to ask the question. How does it work for the holes to secure the enamel? Is it some sort of "glue?" or something mechanical?

Whew, so much to learn but, so much fun for an information junkie like me.
Regards
Tom

[Robert]

Tom,
The pins would usually have a small head and the enamel flows under this helping to hold it in place.

Robert

[Jens Nordlunde]

Tom, thanks for the very good pictures. I now see what you mean about the little holes, but to my opinion they are there for decoration. Have a look at the hilt, it is worn, but by soft hands – how many years do you think this would have taken?

Have a look at the langet, it is even worn more, but this time from a wooden scabbard. Then have a look at the decoration of the blade, why would this decoration not have been worn from the in and out of the wooden scabbard? It should have been, but it is not, on the contrary it seems to be rather crisp. So like Rand suggests, have a look under the langet, you may find the answer there.

Once again, I agree with Rand, the hilt is older than the blade.

I would, but let me stress, that this is my opinion, clean the holes - carefully.

[Tomb22]

Thanks Robert. I am always amazed at the ingenuity of us humans. Especially when it comes to mechanical things. I am a word guy, and just marvel at what folks with mechanical skills, brains, and creativity can do.

Jens, Good point. I agree with both you and Rand. It seems clear when you are looking for it, the differences between the hilt and the blade. So that seems to be the start of two searches. One related to the blade and one related to the hilt. There are so many aspects to this historical searching.

I will very carefully start to clean the holes. After that, what is the best to take off the rust on the blade? And then, do you "oil" it? I think I remember from another post your suggestion for car wax on the blade. Is that correct?

So, I don't keep "pestering" you with these maintenance questions, there might be threads related to cleaning and maintaining these great artifacts.

Tom

[Jens Nordlunde]

Tom, you should remove the rust, but for the rest you should rather clean it too little than too much, as you can always clean it a little more, but if you have gone too far you can’t go back.

I use to clean the weapon with acetone so there is no oil left, rub it with solid car wax and polish it a bit, this will protect it from fingerprints an damp.

When it comes to the Indian way of enamelling, make a search for ‘Enamelling’.

[Marius66]

Hello dear members,

I will soon receive this katar,
I hope it is a genuine one

It looks really fantaisist , and wanted not to buy it but
hopefully I found this post and tried to go on for.many money.
Am I right ? 🙏

[fernando]

Oh ... i find it a great example .

[Marius66]

Hello,
Thank you for your reply Fernando !

I forgot to mention the size: 60cm/ 23,6 cm long

I wonder what they could really cut with this strange wavy and heavy serrated blade ?

Kind regards

[fernando]

Marius, you should never be surprised with the most unusual Indian wepons. Look at our member BobA's example ... if he doesn't mind .


.

[Jim McDougall]

As noted, the edged weaponry of India is often not just unusual, but remarkably innovative. There are not always pragmatic solutions to many of the innovative features in these weapons, which were often created more for the display of the skills and craftmanship of the artisans making them.

The serrated blade is not for specific effect, but more symbolically aligned with the revered sword Dhu l' Fiqar of the Prophet Mohammed, which is often represented with bifurcated point and serrated edge blade.

Many weapons of this type were created during the huge celebrations of the British Raj known as durbars. These huge events created an almost 'fair' like atmosphere (they were held in 1877, 1903 and 1911) in which many bazaars hawking weaponry were assembled throughout the festivities.
While these major events were in the years mentioned, there were many less extravagant events in between with similar character in key cities.

This katar has the enlarged disc representing the chakra, one of the weapons of Shiva, and associated largely with the Pahari kingdoms in NW India, and actually an unusual feature seen on various sword types.

[Marius66]

Thank's a lot for the precious comments Jim !!

I read about the chakra disc or cobra sword usually of good quality and associated to high rang persons.

I finally i receive it, here some pictures with close up,
I don't see any pattern but maybe something with the close pictures, crucible steel or just a classic steel structure ??

The hilt looks line the old Tanjore models and is riveted to the blade,
Can it be a genuine 17th century exemple even the blade ?
Or later assembled parts ??

[Marius66]

17th with this similar katar said to be from northern India and dating from the 17th century in post #15

[Marius66]

Hello? This one 17th too 👍
( without chakra disk )