1730 Rapier or a Victorian 'Copy' .........any ideas? - Page 2

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2006, 06:44 PM

Hello Katana,
More excellent research! especially with the Toledo made example you have found. The shape of the cup indeed corresponds with the baskets on Spanish patterns of the 19th century in thier regulation cavalry swords. What seems key is the alternating quillon terminals.
I think your observations on the servicability of this weapon are outstanding and suggest that this may have indeed been made for use. With that being the case, and the fact that these cuphilt rapiers had long been out of use by Victorian times, I would return to my earlier suggestion concerning the 'mens club' possibility.
In reviewing some books on duelling ("The Duel:A History of Duelling" , Richard Baldick, 1965; "Dueling:The Cult of Honor in Fin-de-Siecle Germany", Kevin Macaleer, 1994), it becomes clear that these much romanticized affairs of honor indeed have prevailed in degree until recent times. This obviously would have been even more the case in Victorian times, with the almost cliche' mens clubs in a very honor obsessed and chauvinist society.
While the cased sets of duelling pistols from the 18th through the 19th centuries are well known, it seems also well known that the choice of weapons was carefully dictated by code.
Baldick (p.38) notes that, "...after the choice of seconds came the choice of weapons, which on the Continent lay with the offended party or challenger, whereas in the English speaking countries it lay with the offender or challenged party". The author goes on to describe that the duellist with the choice of weapons often enjoyed distinct advantage as obviously he would choose the weapon with which he was most skilled. It is well known that the encased sets of duelling pistols were made specifically for that purpose, and often were keenly designed with ingenious refinements such as the 'hair trigger' and other features that typically enhanced the deadliness of these weapons.
It seems to me that with Victorian preoccupation with chivalry etc. that 'duelling' rapiers might have been made to offer an alternative to the clearly deadly duelling pistols with emphasis on the 'honor and tradition' of the sword. While such specifically intended swords are not described in these books (the only forms described specifically are the German schlagers), it seems plausible that such forms may have existed. Your example certainly seems too well made to have been intended as simply a decoration or even as I have suggested previously, a theatrical sword.

This is simply my revised opinion based entirely of course on speculation, and I would enjoy very much hearing either opposing or supporting views

All the best,
Jim

katana · 10th December 2006, 07:09 PM

Thanks Jim for your comments....informative ..as ever

( Its about time you wrote a book

..or have you already?)

It is a shame that I have no history for this sword.....I can tell you the seller states that it was found in a very old house ( built around 1600) whilst being renovated, because of the '1730' engraved on it, he decided to hang it on the wall ...as 'period' decoration.

The stamped dots and double, inverted 'C' seem crude and old.....have you ever come across similar marks??

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2006, 09:04 PM

Hi Katana,
Thank you very much for the compliment!!!

Actually it seems I have pretty much written a book, in composite form

on these forums over the years!! I just enjoy doing research and in reality learn from the queries posted, then share my findings. The best thing is that we all learn together.

Can you post a photo of the markings and I'll check some sources here.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 10th December 2006, 09:29 PM

Hi Jim,
tried to photograph the markings before....but they are not clear enough to be seen. However, I reproduced the markings and download it with the photos of the sword in a previous post.....not to scale..the actual markings are much smaller. Here it is again,
thanks David

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2006, 11:07 PM

Hi Katana,
Thanks for posting the marks. From the outset, these marks seem to be a linear interpretation stylized possibly from earlier authentic markings. I began checking the usual sources (sounds like Casablanca

!
In "Armourers Marks" Gyngell, 1959; "1000 Marks of European Blademakers", Lenkiewicz, 1991; and "Waffenkunde" W.Boeheim, 1890.......no sign of anything like these marks, no back to back crescents either.

Then finally, I found something interesting in "The Wallace Collection: European Arms & Armour", Vol.I, Sir James Mann, 1962....on p.56 in describing a suit of German armour, it is noted that on the gauntlets there ar sequential punched dots, three, and on the gorget plate are found punched crescents. These punched marks seem to appear in variation on a number of these armours, which it should be noted are often, if not typically seen on a number of these. Although of course very speculative, it may be suggested that the appearance of such markings on a weapon such as this sword, possibly made by an armourer of this cottage industry of reproduction armour of the Victorian period might be consistant with base familiarity of such marks on the authentic pieces.
It is well known that the familiar 'Genoan' sickle marks are placed essentially back to back, though not joined, and there are three dots at either end of each semicircle. Possibly this linear representation signifies literally back to back semicircles with three dots at either end.
Possibilities worth considering, on an increasingly fascinating sword

All the best,
Jim

katana · 10th December 2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello Katana,
More excellent research! Jim

Touche .........more excellent research yourself Jim

Thankyou..... for the 'leads' ...I will certainly do some more 'digging' and see where it leads.

Kind Regards
David

10th December 2006, 09:29 PM	#34
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim, tried to photograph the markings before....but they are not clear enough to be seen. However, I reproduced the markings and download it with the photos of the sword in a previous post.....not to scale..the actual markings are much smaller. Here it is again, thanks David Attached Images

10th December 2006, 11:07 PM	#35
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hi Katana, Thanks for posting the marks. From the outset, these marks seem to be a linear interpretation stylized possibly from earlier authentic markings. I began checking the usual sources (sounds like Casablanca! In "Armourers Marks" Gyngell, 1959; "1000 Marks of European Blademakers", Lenkiewicz, 1991; and "Waffenkunde" W.Boeheim, 1890.......no sign of anything like these marks, no back to back crescents either. Then finally, I found something interesting in "The Wallace Collection: European Arms & Armour", Vol.I, Sir James Mann, 1962....on p.56 in describing a suit of German armour, it is noted that on the gauntlets there ar sequential punched dots, three, and on the gorget plate are found punched crescents. These punched marks seem to appear in variation on a number of these armours, which it should be noted are often, if not typically seen on a number of these. Although of course very speculative, it may be suggested that the appearance of such markings on a weapon such as this sword, possibly made by an armourer of this cottage industry of reproduction armour of the Victorian period might be consistant with base familiarity of such marks on the authentic pieces. It is well known that the familiar 'Genoan' sickle marks are placed essentially back to back, though not joined, and there are three dots at either end of each semicircle. Possibly this linear representation signifies literally back to back semicircles with three dots at either end. Possibilities worth considering, on an increasingly fascinating sword All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th December 2006 at 12:10 AM.

10th December 2006, 06:44 PM	#31
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hello Katana, More excellent research! especially with the Toledo made example you have found. The shape of the cup indeed corresponds with the baskets on Spanish patterns of the 19th century in thier regulation cavalry swords. What seems key is the alternating quillon terminals. I think your observations on the servicability of this weapon are outstanding and suggest that this may have indeed been made for use. With that being the case, and the fact that these cuphilt rapiers had long been out of use by Victorian times, I would return to my earlier suggestion concerning the 'mens club' possibility. In reviewing some books on duelling ("The Duel:A History of Duelling" , Richard Baldick, 1965; "Dueling:The Cult of Honor in Fin-de-Siecle Germany", Kevin Macaleer, 1994), it becomes clear that these much romanticized affairs of honor indeed have prevailed in degree until recent times. This obviously would have been even more the case in Victorian times, with the almost cliche' mens clubs in a very honor obsessed and chauvinist society. While the cased sets of duelling pistols from the 18th through the 19th centuries are well known, it seems also well known that the choice of weapons was carefully dictated by code. Baldick (p.38) notes that, "...after the choice of seconds came the choice of weapons, which on the Continent lay with the offended party or challenger, whereas in the English speaking countries it lay with the offender or challenged party". The author goes on to describe that the duellist with the choice of weapons often enjoyed distinct advantage as obviously he would choose the weapon with which he was most skilled. It is well known that the encased sets of duelling pistols were made specifically for that purpose, and often were keenly designed with ingenious refinements such as the 'hair trigger' and other features that typically enhanced the deadliness of these weapons. It seems to me that with Victorian preoccupation with chivalry etc. that 'duelling' rapiers might have been made to offer an alternative to the clearly deadly duelling pistols with emphasis on the 'honor and tradition' of the sword. While such specifically intended swords are not described in these books (the only forms described specifically are the German schlagers), it seems plausible that such forms may have existed. Your example certainly seems too well made to have been intended as simply a decoration or even as I have suggested previously, a theatrical sword. This is simply my revised opinion based entirely of course on speculation, and I would enjoy very much hearing either opposing or supporting views All the best, Jim

10th December 2006, 07:09 PM	#32
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Jim for your comments....informative ..as ever ( Its about time you wrote a book ..or have you already?) It is a shame that I have no history for this sword.....I can tell you the seller states that it was found in a very old house ( built around 1600) whilst being renovated, because of the '1730' engraved on it, he decided to hang it on the wall ...as 'period' decoration. The stamped dots and double, inverted 'C' seem crude and old.....have you ever come across similar marks??

10th December 2006, 09:04 PM	#33
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hi Katana, Thank you very much for the compliment!!! Actually it seems I have pretty much written a book, in composite form on these forums over the years!! I just enjoy doing research and in reality learn from the queries posted, then share my findings. The best thing is that we all learn together. Can you post a photo of the markings and I'll check some sources here. All the best, Jim