Labels, true or just heaps of bull****

[Tim Simmons]

I do not need to use a hot pin.

[Tim Simmons]

Raw hide and leather. You can see that the hide was wet then wrapped around the stick then bound untill drying as a hard cover. What other treaments to this I do not know. The tassel leather part is 32cm long inside the outer hide cover and stiched with a bunched and twisted hair thread. The leather has also been smoked. All very simple but looks high quallity materials to me.

[Tim Simmons]

You can see where the inner wrap of fine leather with stitching end under the hide wrap. There is a small step where the thickness reduces. I have tried to highlight this with a sudmge mark. Many of the tassels are very delicate.

[David]

Tim, i couldn't see much in that first new grouping so i applied a little photoshop magic to bring out the details.
I'm still not convinced either way. This style of binding doesn't really look like any other Native American pieces i have seen, but it does look solid.

[Tim Simmons]

The binding follows the same basic principle as these examples. In these pictures the stick is bent round the stone. In my example it is two sticks, the main long handle stick and a smaller holding stick, both bent to hold the ball form stone.

[spiral]

The last pictures you added Tim show typicle ploughed groove American Indian tools, in which the rawhide sits within the groove.

I dont say that means yours are not good, but there very different than the examples you use to illustrate.

When I have time this Ill look through my references on this stuff,looking for similar. I have heaps of stuff on this subject {as you probably would guess, }but its not been my major focus so far, so sadley cant realy add lib on it.

Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The binding follows the same basic principle as these examples. In these pictures the stick is bent round the stone. In my example it is two sticks, the main long handle stick and a smaller holding stick, both bent to hold the ball form stone.

I'm afraid that i agree with spiral here. The examples you show are not bound in the same way at all. I see no notching in your stone. In the new examples you show the rawhide is not bound across the stone and i see no excessive use od plant resin to hold it all together.

[VANDOO]

ITS DIFFICULT TO TELL WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT FROM THE PICTURES. I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS FORM OF CLUB OR ANYTHING RESEMBELING IT AND THE USE OF SUCH A THICK UNFINISHED COATING OF AMBER /RESIN IS A NEW ONE FOR ME.
FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IT WOULD APPEAR THE WOOD WAS EITHER A NATURAL FORK OR HAS BEEN SPLIT. THE STONE WAS PLACED IN THE FORK AND THE TWO ENDS LASHED TOGETHER ABOVE IT, THEN SENU OR RAWHIDE STRAPS CROSSED TO FURTHER SECURE IT AND THEN RESIN APPLIED COVERING THE ENTIRE THING.
IS THE STONE COVERED IN HIDE OR IS IT POSSIBLE TO SEE THE ACTUAL STONE?? IF YOU CAN SEE THE STONE CAN YOU TELL IF A GROVE HAS BEEN PECKED IN IT WHERE THE TWO WOOD STRAPS ARE.
WHAT ABOUT THE BEADS ON THE TASSELS ON THE OTHER CLUB ARE THEY OLD OR NEW?? IF NEW IT MAY BE SAFE TO ASSUME THE PAINT AND CLUB ARE MORE RECENT.

[katana]

Hi Tim,
2 thoughts about the clubs construction. I think the binding is likely sinew, certainly looks like it, with its 'striation', fiberous look. Dried sinew can look like plant cordage. Secondly, perhaps the stone became slightly loose within its binding and, the resin applied as a 'quick fix' to re-secure it. Dampness seriously affects sinew (and raw hide, for that matter) causing it to become pliable and stretchy again (causing 'looseness') alternatively the wood could have dried out and shrunk in a manner that the contact between the stone and branch 'lessened'.

No idea as to origin or authenticity.

As a footnote. I belong to a Paleo forum....many members construct spears , clubs etc using traditional techniques and materials. I am sure that some of these find their way into the mainstream market as authentic. I do not believe they are necessarily made with the intent to deceive, but think there are dodgy buyers whom artificial age them and pass them off as genuine.

Kind Regards David

[katana]

There has been a few Sioux items, sold at auction attributed to the Black Pipe state Bank, South Dakota.

This article, ties the Sioux with Black pipe.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B...dakota&f=false

It would appear that the Black Pipe collection mainly consisted of Sioux artifacts.

Regards David

[David]

You can see a lot of examples of different types of Souix war clubs here:
http://www.google.com/images?q=sioux...w=1422&bih=698

[Tim Simmons]

David ie Katana, you are right on further inspection the binding is indeed sinew. I know the stones in the last pictures I post have a groove, I was interested in the bent round and bound stick. The resin that covers the stone is softer {than the stuff I have} in that it does not dry as brittle and if you wanted to you could force your nail or other object into it. I am pleased to see pictures of all the ball forward club which suggest this follows a traditional form. I have said it would not take a master to reproduce items like this. If this is a hobby piece then it was done long ago. I like to think I have been collecting old looking stuff for a few years at least. Does it really look new in the pictures?

[Tim Simmons]

This is a very curious feature to this club, four tiny Zinc? pins. There are sections of under painting on this club that show through the raw hide. The wet hide has been bound when wet to harden on the club stick. The raw hide on this club is not as fine parchment like as on the bound stone club. Although the stone on this club is small I think it could still crack your skull equally there must have been dance clubs? The pins are a strange addition?

I am still on the fence, but a great deal more of my weight is leaning to possible authentic pieces.

[Tim Simmons]

I have just thought of the answer to the metal pins. It is the forgers, hobbyists signing off, like a master forger painting a digital wristwatch on a fake Gainsborough.