New Member, New Keris - Page 2

tunggulametung · 23rd November 2013, 02:16 AM

I'm not specifically speaking about the keris under discussion, or Detlef's example, but Javanese tanggalan sheath is often made from repurposed ladrang sheath, just as nguku bimo on telale gajah. In fact, I personally think this is the origin of the design. The Sumatran/Malay example is another.

tunggulametung · 23rd November 2013, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

............

Like Alan I know that purveyors in Indonesia are very imaginative by creating storys when they want to sell something (and not only in Indonesia).
.........................

Thank you Detlef

I may add that when the seller knows your quality he normally won't tell these stories and let you judge the object. So the moral is to educate yourself and be confident with it.

Sajen · 23rd November 2013, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Thank you Detlef

I may add that when the seller knows your quality he normally won't tell these stories and let you judge the object. So the moral is to educate yourself and be confident with it.

Hi Chandra,

I think you know exacly what I have meant! I have bought the a lot of my keris in Indonesia and I have had my education as well. And I have had a very good teatcher. And there are also very serious seller in Indonesia like you or some other ebay sellers. Sorry, never want offend you or other persons I have bought before from.

Best regards,

Detlef

Jean · 23rd November 2013, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

I'm not specifically speaking about the keris under discussion, or Detlef's example, but Javanese tanggalan sheath is often made from repurposed ladrang sheath, just as nguku bimo on telale gajah. In fact, I personally think this is the origin of the design. The Sumatran/Malay example is another.

Hello Chandra,
This is an interesting opinion, however looking at my specimen and one typical warangka branggah from Yogya, I find it difficult that the tanggalan warangka could be reshaped from a branggah one for several reasons:
. The front part of the tanggalan warangka is more protruding and rounded than the branggah
. The tanggalan warangka is more curved on the top than the branggah
. The groove on the front side is different
. The rear part of the branggah is slimmer and flat at the bottom and it looks difficult to re-sape it to a tanggalan.

What do you mean by Sumatra/ Malay example?
Thanks and regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2013, 09:16 PM

Jean, forgive me, but TA said that in his opinion the origin of the design was from reshaping a ladrang, not that all tanggalan were from ladrang.

In fact damaged ladrangs were the origin of a second type of wrongko also, the Madura/East Jawa kacir, but as with the tanggalan the kacir became a form in its own right.

Actually, I have a bit of a problem with this name:- "tanggalan".

I'd never heard this name used until I saw people on this Forum using it, then I found it in Ensiklopedi,published in 2004. It was not in the first edition (Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional) published in 1988.

Through the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's everybody I knew in Solo called this wrongko form "wulan tumanggal", and they probably still do today, although its been a while since I've used or heard the name there.

The word "tanggalan" means "calendar". So this is a "calendar wrongko" ??

On the other hand, "wulan tumanggal" means "new moon", a name which to me seems very appropriate and perfectly understandable.

"Calendar wrongko" ?????

David · 23rd November 2013, 10:00 PM

Thanks Alan. Very interesting info.

tunggulametung · 24th November 2013, 07:23 AM

Thanks Alan.
Jean, exactly my thought is what has been rephrased by Alan above.
I also meat to say that my opinion is limited to Javanese warangka and not similar warangka found on Sumatra/Peninsula, which in my opinion started as genuine style (Islamic influence?), or at least has been refined to its highest potential.

Alan, I think you have a valid point. The idea is indeed new moon (Javanese/Islamic calendar use lunar system), and it started perhaps as if one said gayaman, ladrangan, etc so the speaker might means (in informal setting) "in the style of wulan tumanggal". Wulan tumanggal or wulan tumanggalan is perhaps more appropriate but I personally would use any of the above as long other understand. Thank you for your reminder.

Jean · 24th November 2013, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Jean, exactly my thought is what has been rephrased by Alan above.
I also meant to say that my opinion is limited to Javanese warangka and not similar warangka found on Sumatra/Peninsula, which in my opinion started as genuine style (Islamic influence?), or at least has been refined to its highest potential.

Thank you Chandra and sorry for the misunderstanding, however I still doubt that a proper warangka tanggalan or whatever you call it can be made from a repurposed ladrang or branggah unless it is decided by the craftsman during the making process...

And in Sumatra these sheaths are locally called dua hari bulan according to the EK.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 24th November 2013, 11:23 AM

Jean, Tunggulametung would know this, but you may not:-

the root word for both "tanggalan" and "tumanggal" is tanggal, which means both "date" and "the beginning of the lunar month". It would be very easy to make a small error in composition.

from about 1982 through into the 1990's ---maybe '94 or '95--- one of my closest friends in Solo was a gentleman named Agus Irianto, also known as Agus Warangka. He was the grandson of a one of the all time great m'ranggis---I forget who--- and a very talented tukang wrongko himself.

He only ever called this type of wrongko a wulan tumanggal, and I never did hear anybody in Solo call it anything else.

Maybe in some other place it is known as a tanggalan wrongko, or maybe we are looking at another of the discrepancies that we can find in EK. I don't know.

But anyway, to avoid argument, I think I'll just call these things "calendar wrongkos" from now on.

Jean · 25th November 2013, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

..........
But anyway, to avoid argument, I think I'll just call these things "calendar wrongkos" from now on.

Thank you Alan.
I would like to know more about the origin of these Javanese "calendar wrongkos" if possible:
. If I remember well the EK mentions that this type of wrongko originated during the Demak period and virtually stopped to be made after the old Mataram period. However these wrongkos seem to have been made until recently and may still be made although they are not very common.
. All the specimens which are shown and which I saw seem to be in Jogja style (hilt & pendok) so is it correct to say that this is a specific Jogja style?
. Any idea why this elegant and convenient style of wrongko did not get more successful in Java?
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2013, 12:22 PM

Jean, I cannot answer any of those questions.

This sort of thing can be hypothesised over forever, but its not the sort of thing that I have ever heard any discussion or opinions on, in fact, generally speaking I doubt if a matter of this nature would be of much interest to anybody I know.

Not everything that you will find in EK can withstand testing.

Do they occur in Jogja? Maybe, but I've never seen one worn there and I do not know where they fit. A keris wrongko needs to be identified with dress and occasion. This is not a haphazard thing. If these calendar wrongkos were/are used in Jogja for what purpose were they used? I personally have no idea, but then I know very little about Jogja style and form.

Jean · 25th November 2013, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, I cannot answer any of those questions.....

Thank you Alan and I realize that my questions are difficult, actually they were passed to me by another collector so we are at least 2 interested people

However there is a specific one to which you may be able to reply: do you remember if your mranggi neighbour Agus "Warangka" from Solo who spoke to you about these "calendar wrongkos" actually made them or not? This would give some indication whether these pieces are also found in Solo or not.
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 25th November 2013, 09:11 PM

That's an easy one Jean.

These wrongkos definitely have no place in Solo.

A wrongko is not just a thing to put a keris in.

Since at least the first quarter of the 19th century a wrongko is an item of dress that had and has prescribed forms for defined wear.

In its function as an item of dress it doesn't even need to have a proper keris in it. I've seen wrongkos being worn with cut out pieces of tin in them, in place of a keris blade. Not even flat iron, but tin, like a piece of an oil container cut to shape. This is fairly common amongst poor people. I have even seen a piece of cardboard used to support the jejeran, instead of a keris blade.

As an item of dress, the keris itself doesn't matter much, it is the perception that the wearer has a keris of the proper type in the proper place that is important.

Odd shaped wrongkos have no place as items of dress.

I never saw Agus working on or with one of these calendar wrongkos.

In my opinion you can eliminate the possibility of this form of wrongko being used in Surakarta.

Jean · 25th November 2013, 09:23 PM

Thank you Alan, and I will try to get some clues about these wrongkos from an experienced Yogya seller who has close ties with the kraton.

Regards

Jean · 3rd December 2013, 06:30 PM

I found this article about "Warangka wulan tumanggal" (Alan was right as usual!) in the Keris magazine vol. 07-08/2007. May be one Indonesian member would be kind enough to summarize the contents for our reference?

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 3rd December 2013, 08:48 PM

Jean, the title is clear, isn't it? With your additions?

The little bit of text says nothing at all that is relevant to the wrongko type, its just a repeat of the fall of Mojo and the rise of Demak. Historical stuff, but having said that, it appears to be framed as popular history, not in the light of the most recent academic opinion.

If you can post copies of the other pages I'll read them and give a summary, but I most sincerely doubt that you will find any revelations therein. Accuracy of information might also be a problem.

Jean · 3rd December 2013, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, the title is clear, isn't it? With your additions?

The little bit of text says nothing at all that is relevant to the wrongko type, its just a repeat of the fall of Mojo and the rise of Demak. Historical stuff, but having said that, it appears to be framed as popular history, not in the light of the most recent academic opinion.

If you can post copies of the other pages I'll read them and give a summary, but I most sincerely doubt that you will find any revelations therein. Accuracy of information might also be a problem.

Thank you Alan, I will scan the other pages and send them to you by Email for copyright reasons.
Regards

David · 3rd December 2013, 09:28 PM

Nice find Jean, if only for another source for the name of this particular sheath form.

A. G. Maisey · 5th December 2013, 09:56 PM

Jean sent me a copy of this article and I've read it, at his request I'm posting here the precis I sent to him.

" The author is of the opinion that the WT wrongko form was inspired by the Middle-Eastern symbol of the crescent moon and star, and that this wrongko form arose on the Nth. Coast of Jawa with the blossoming of Islam. Islam used as one of its methods of penetration the penetration of Javanese keris culture.

He points out that the form also exists in the Malay Peninsula and can be found until today, so he asks the question:- " did the WT form originate in Jawa or in Malay Pen.?"
The answer to this questions is:- "from the assumption that keris culture began in Jawa, thus all things associated with keris culture also come from Jawa"

This generates the question of how it got from Jawa to Malaya.

Answer:- a fleet of ships put together on the Nth. Coast of Jawa set out with the intention to destroy the Portuguese in Malacca, however, Sultan Trenggono wanted the Portuguese to destroy this fleet, because by doing so it would weaken his competitors in Jawa. The fleet never made it to Malacca, but beached on the east coast, the ships were burnt, and the crews settled in the area and became farmers, married locally and never returned to Jawa, but traces of Javanese culture remained, including the form of the WT wrongko. The area where they settled they named Trengganu in memory of Sultan Trenggono. You can disregard spelling variation, if it sounds right it is right, Javanese is a non-standard language.

In summary:- the writer theorises that the WT form arose in Jawa with the rise of Islam, and was taken from Jawa to the Malay Pen. By a group of ship-wrecked warriors. The form was inspired by the Middle Eastern symbol of the crescent moon and star.

It’s a theory of origin, and may well have a grain of truth in it, but the writer produces no evidence nor logical argument to support his theory. There is lots of popular history in the article but how much is fact and how much is myth or legend is open to question."

Jean · 6th December 2013, 09:53 AM

Thank you Alan and this theory makes sense for explaining the presence of similar wrongkos "dua hari bulan" in Malaysia and East Sumatra (Riau).

Regards

Uwik · 9th January 2014, 10:03 AM

If I may be allowed to offer an opinion on the meaning of Wulan Tumanggal, it would be as follows:

Wulan tumanggal = gêlaring baris awangun satêngah buwêngan (ora têmu-gêlang)

Essentially, it means that it's a line with circular shape and neither of its ends connect. (Doesn't form a bracelet)

A crescent moon is a Wulan Tumanggal shape. In this context, that Warangka shape would fall into this category as well.

3rd December 2013, 06:30 PM	#45
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I found this article about "Warangka wulan tumanggal" (Alan was right as usual!) in the Keris magazine vol. 07-08/2007. May be one Indonesian member would be kind enough to summarize the contents for our reference? Regards Attached Images

23rd November 2013, 02:16 AM	#31
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	I'm not specifically speaking about the keris under discussion, or Detlef's example, but Javanese tanggalan sheath is often made from repurposed ladrang sheath, just as nguku bimo on telale gajah. In fact, I personally think this is the origin of the design. The Sumatran/Malay example is another.

23rd November 2013, 09:16 PM	#35
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Jean, forgive me, but TA said that in his opinion the origin of the design was from reshaping a ladrang, not that all tanggalan were from ladrang. In fact damaged ladrangs were the origin of a second type of wrongko also, the Madura/East Jawa kacir, but as with the tanggalan the kacir became a form in its own right. Actually, I have a bit of a problem with this name:- "tanggalan". I'd never heard this name used until I saw people on this Forum using it, then I found it in Ensiklopedi,published in 2004. It was not in the first edition (Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional) published in 1988. Through the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's everybody I knew in Solo called this wrongko form "wulan tumanggal", and they probably still do today, although its been a while since I've used or heard the name there. The word "tanggalan" means "calendar". So this is a "calendar wrongko" ?? On the other hand, "wulan tumanggal" means "new moon", a name which to me seems very appropriate and perfectly understandable. "Calendar wrongko" ?????

23rd November 2013, 10:00 PM	#36
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Thanks Alan. Very interesting info.

24th November 2013, 07:23 AM	#37
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Thanks Alan. Jean, exactly my thought is what has been rephrased by Alan above. I also meat to say that my opinion is limited to Javanese warangka and not similar warangka found on Sumatra/Peninsula, which in my opinion started as genuine style (Islamic influence?), or at least has been refined to its highest potential. Alan, I think you have a valid point. The idea is indeed new moon (Javanese/Islamic calendar use lunar system), and it started perhaps as if one said gayaman, ladrangan, etc so the speaker might means (in informal setting) "in the style of wulan tumanggal". Wulan tumanggal or wulan tumanggalan is perhaps more appropriate but I personally would use any of the above as long other understand. Thank you for your reminder.

24th November 2013, 11:23 AM	#39
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Jean, Tunggulametung would know this, but you may not:- the root word for both "tanggalan" and "tumanggal" is tanggal, which means both "date" and "the beginning of the lunar month". It would be very easy to make a small error in composition. from about 1982 through into the 1990's ---maybe '94 or '95--- one of my closest friends in Solo was a gentleman named Agus Irianto, also known as Agus Warangka. He was the grandson of a one of the all time great m'ranggis---I forget who--- and a very talented tukang wrongko himself. He only ever called this type of wrongko a wulan tumanggal, and I never did hear anybody in Solo call it anything else. Maybe in some other place it is known as a tanggalan wrongko, or maybe we are looking at another of the discrepancies that we can find in EK. I don't know. But anyway, to avoid argument, I think I'll just call these things "calendar wrongkos" from now on.

25th November 2013, 12:22 PM	#41
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Jean, I cannot answer any of those questions. This sort of thing can be hypothesised over forever, but its not the sort of thing that I have ever heard any discussion or opinions on, in fact, generally speaking I doubt if a matter of this nature would be of much interest to anybody I know. Not everything that you will find in EK can withstand testing. Do they occur in Jogja? Maybe, but I've never seen one worn there and I do not know where they fit. A keris wrongko needs to be identified with dress and occasion. This is not a haphazard thing. If these calendar wrongkos were/are used in Jogja for what purpose were they used? I personally have no idea, but then I know very little about Jogja style and form.

25th November 2013, 09:11 PM	#43
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	That's an easy one Jean. These wrongkos definitely have no place in Solo. A wrongko is not just a thing to put a keris in. Since at least the first quarter of the 19th century a wrongko is an item of dress that had and has prescribed forms for defined wear. In its function as an item of dress it doesn't even need to have a proper keris in it. I've seen wrongkos being worn with cut out pieces of tin in them, in place of a keris blade. Not even flat iron, but tin, like a piece of an oil container cut to shape. This is fairly common amongst poor people. I have even seen a piece of cardboard used to support the jejeran, instead of a keris blade. As an item of dress, the keris itself doesn't matter much, it is the perception that the wearer has a keris of the proper type in the proper place that is important. Odd shaped wrongkos have no place as items of dress. I never saw Agus working on or with one of these calendar wrongkos. In my opinion you can eliminate the possibility of this form of wrongko being used in Surakarta.

25th November 2013, 09:23 PM	#44
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan, and I will try to get some clues about these wrongkos from an experienced Yogya seller who has close ties with the kraton. Regards

3rd December 2013, 08:48 PM	#46
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Jean, the title is clear, isn't it? With your additions? The little bit of text says nothing at all that is relevant to the wrongko type, its just a repeat of the fall of Mojo and the rise of Demak. Historical stuff, but having said that, it appears to be framed as popular history, not in the light of the most recent academic opinion. If you can post copies of the other pages I'll read them and give a summary, but I most sincerely doubt that you will find any revelations therein. Accuracy of information might also be a problem.

3rd December 2013, 09:28 PM	#48
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Nice find Jean, if only for another source for the name of this particular sheath form.

5th December 2013, 09:56 PM	#49
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Jean sent me a copy of this article and I've read it, at his request I'm posting here the precis I sent to him. " The author is of the opinion that the WT wrongko form was inspired by the Middle-Eastern symbol of the crescent moon and star, and that this wrongko form arose on the Nth. Coast of Jawa with the blossoming of Islam. Islam used as one of its methods of penetration the penetration of Javanese keris culture. He points out that the form also exists in the Malay Peninsula and can be found until today, so he asks the question:- " did the WT form originate in Jawa or in Malay Pen.?" The answer to this questions is:- "from the assumption that keris culture began in Jawa, thus all things associated with keris culture also come from Jawa" This generates the question of how it got from Jawa to Malaya. Answer:- a fleet of ships put together on the Nth. Coast of Jawa set out with the intention to destroy the Portuguese in Malacca, however, Sultan Trenggono wanted the Portuguese to destroy this fleet, because by doing so it would weaken his competitors in Jawa. The fleet never made it to Malacca, but beached on the east coast, the ships were burnt, and the crews settled in the area and became farmers, married locally and never returned to Jawa, but traces of Javanese culture remained, including the form of the WT wrongko. The area where they settled they named Trengganu in memory of Sultan Trenggono. You can disregard spelling variation, if it sounds right it is right, Javanese is a non-standard language. In summary:- the writer theorises that the WT form arose in Jawa with the rise of Islam, and was taken from Jawa to the Malay Pen. By a group of ship-wrecked warriors. The form was inspired by the Middle Eastern symbol of the crescent moon and star. It’s a theory of origin, and may well have a grain of truth in it, but the writer produces no evidence nor logical argument to support his theory. There is lots of popular history in the article but how much is fact and how much is myth or legend is open to question."

6th December 2013, 09:53 AM	#50
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan and this theory makes sense for explaining the presence of similar wrongkos "dua hari bulan" in Malaysia and East Sumatra (Riau). Regards

9th January 2014, 10:03 AM	#51
Uwik Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Indonesia Posts: 1	If I may be allowed to offer an opinion on the meaning of Wulan Tumanggal, it would be as follows: Wulan tumanggal = gêlaring baris awangun satêngah buwêngan (ora têmu-gêlang) Essentially, it means that it's a line with circular shape and neither of its ends connect. (Doesn't form a bracelet) A crescent moon is a Wulan Tumanggal shape. In this context, that Warangka shape would fall into this category as well.