The Tourist Item/Souvenier in arms antiquities

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Bob A

Inspection of the bullet hole leads me to believe it occurred quite some time ago.

Hi Bob. You'll have to read up a bit on 'Parang Sabil' as there's a lot of misconception / misinterpretation about that. But in summary, Parang Sabil is a religious and patriotic commitment to defend the Moro homeland. It's not actually a suicide attack; it's a commitment and implementation to duty, to drive out foreign invaders / threats to the Sultanate. During the time Parang Sabils were committed against the Americans, however, the odds were against the Moros; that's why the Americans viewed it as a senseless, random suicide attack.

Regarding your bullet hole, since it has a corresponding mark on the scabbard, I'd say it was probably made on an unsuspecting / unprepared Moro. The weapon can be placed three ways, based on the pictures I've seen: tied at the waist, slung across one's chest, or tied near one's armpit.

[thinreadline]

Originally Posted by ariel

My 2 cents worth is that there are as many collections as there are collectors.
Some collect beautiful and rich examples. Other are attracted to simple examples with a whiff of blood. Some collect works of modern masters, other demand irrefutable proof of 17 century. Some want strict classic authenticity, other spend months to acquire an unusual example mixing several traditions. I am sure that somewhere in Australia or Kazakhstan there is a sword lover who collects stamps with the images of swords.

The disappointment arrives when we are sold ( often fraudulently) not what we were intended to collect.

Other than that, I gladly join Chairman Mao: Let the thousand flowers bloom!

Collecting weapons is a form of insanity because there is no practical use of these pieces of iron/carbon alloys hanging on our walls. Collecting abject replicas and cheap imitations is as logical ( or illogical) as Fiegel’s quest of getting only wootz blades with “two kirks and a rose”.

Choose what tickles your fancy and go for it! What makes you a true collector is not what objects you acquire, but what do you want to learn from them.

well said Ariel !

[Robert]

As posted by Bob A
Perhaps opinions can be developed regarding this barong, purportedly dating from the Phillippine revolt around 1900. The bullet hole appears to be .38 caliber. It was noted at the time that this round did not have adequate stopping power; the wounded would continue to advance. This prompted the move to .45 caliber handguns by the US Army.

Looking closely at the bullet hole in the blade and scabbard and the way the damage is done I do not believe that this was caused by any pistol round of that era. Even if it was done at point blank range the rounds used for handguns at that time did not have the velocity needed to punch a hole through both scabbard and blade so precisely. It is too clean, round and shows very little spread from impact. It is MHO that this damage was most likely caused by a 30 cal. FMJ with a steel core round fired from a rifle.

Best,
Robert

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Robert

Looking closely at the bullet hole in the blade and scabbard and the way the damage is done I do not believe that this was caused by any pistol round of that era. Even if it was done at point blank range the rounds used for handguns at that time did not have the velocity needed to punch a hole through both scabbard and blade so precisely. It is too clean, round and shows very little spread from impact. It is MHO that this damage was most likely caused by a 30 cal. FMJ with a steel core round fired from a rifle.

Best,
Robert

Now thats some impressive forensics Robert!!! What you say seems very true, though I am far from being any expert on this kind of stuff. What I do know is that one of the biggest dilemmas in many campaigns and battles well into 19th century with guns was powder and the lack of quality that was usually an issue.

Even in the Sudan, natives firing muskets had such lousy powder (not to mention poor training) that many British troopers were hit numerous times and not seriously injured.


It does not seem far fetched that 'battle damage' might be so inflicted by creative sellers.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Robert

Looking closely at the bullet hole in the blade and scabbard and the way the damage is done I do not believe that this was caused by any pistol round of that era. Even if it was done at point blank range the rounds used for handguns at that time did not have the velocity needed to punch a hole through both scabbard and blade so precisely. It is too clean, round and shows very little spread from impact. It is MHO that this damage was most likely caused by a 30 cal. FMJ with a steel core round fired from a rifle.

Best,
Robert

Krag - Jorgenson?
A jacketed round.

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Now thats some impressive forensics Robert!!! What you say seems very true, though I am far from being any expert on this kind of stuff. What I do know is that one of the biggest dilemmas in many campaigns and battles well into 19th century with guns was powder and the lack of quality that was usually an issue.

Even in the Sudan, natives firing muskets had such lousy powder (not to mention poor training) that many British troopers were hit numerous times and not seriously injured.


It does not seem far fetched that 'battle damage' might be so inflicted by creative sellers.

Well, it's a real bullet hole. It seems premature to charge it to a creative faker. There's little question that the actual hole is far from recent.

The hole in the blade is the size of a .32 caliber bullet. The thickness of the metal in that part of the blade is about 0.065" to 0.075". (~1.6-1.8mm)

Reasonably modern smokeless powder was in use at the time, not black powder, nor were muskets in use, at least on the US side of the issue.

The .38 caliber revolver was the smallest handgun in use by the US Army at the ime; the Krag-Jorgenson rifle used a .30 caliber round, so if the barong was from the period, that might well have created the hole. (Good call, Rick!)

I have no information at this time regarding firearms available on the Filipino side of the fray. Friendly fire is always a possibility. It might be well to consider what the Spanish troop were using, as well. The Mauser C96 pistol was in use from its initial release in 1896, and was in use by the First Philippine Republic's forces. The 7.63x25 round used in these pistols was certainly potent enough to inflict the level of damage seen in the barong.

[Robert]

The Mauser C96 pistol was in use from its initial release in 1896, and was in use by the First Philippine Republic's forces. The 7.63x25 round used in these pistols was certainly potent enough to inflict the level of damage seen in the barong.

The model 1893 7X55 Mauser rifle used by the Spanish forces would also produce a hole as the one seen in this barong. It is late here (for me anyway) and I had forgotten about the broom handle Mauser pistols used by the Spanish. The main thing I was trying to explain is that it would take a higher velocity jacketed round to produce this type of damage. A slower round such as the 38 used by U.S. forces would have expanded much more upon impact, blown the wood of the scabbard apart and most likely either broken a large chunk out of the edge of the blade or put a good bend in it as it slid down the side.

Best,
Robert

[Jim McDougall]

This are excellent explanations Bob and Robert!! and as I noted, fantastic for than well versed firearms persons such as myself. I have always thought ballistics and forensics in these kinds of investigations amazing.
Bob, my comment was not intended to suggest the damage to your piece was not authentically received, just that such intentional 'distressing' has been known.

I know I have an Ottoman yataghan which has damage near the bottom of the hilt just above the blade very similar, and the 'round' impression is quite clear but did not penetrate. I do not have it nor pictures unfortunately.
I always thought it to be from a black powder firearm for those reasons.

[Bob A]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Bob, my comment was not intended to suggest the damage to your piece was not authentically received, just that such intentional 'distressing' has been known.

No problem, Jim.

It did cause me to recall a comic tale by Pat McManus; when he was a youth, surplus stores had plenty of leftover WWII stuff for sale. Once the owner of the store saw that the kids were more interested in buying things like helmets that had bullet holes in them, rather that the unscathed items, he took it upon himself to ventilate much of his inventory, to generate buyers' enthusiasm.

Of course, when McManus told it, it was funny.

I confess to having recalled that tale when bidding on the barong. I bought it anyway. There's a lot of the wonder of little kids in those of us who pursue these weapons, I suspect.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Bob A

No problem, Jim.

It did cause me to recall a comic tale by Pat McManus; when he was a youth, surplus stores had plenty of leftover WWII stuff for sale. Once the owner of the store saw that the kids were more interested in buying things like helmets that had bullet holes in them, rather that the unscathed items, he took it upon himself to ventilate much of his inventory, to generate buyers' enthusiasm.

Of course, when McManus told it, it was funny.

I confess to having recalled that tale when bidding on the barong. I bought it anyway. There's a lot of the wonder of little kids in those of us who pursue these weapons, I suspect.

You hit it spot on Bob!!! Im still the same little kid that over 60 years ago watched swashbuckling pirate movies in awe. I never could have imagined that years later I would be handling and investigating the 'real deal' in actual weapons of those times..........even in the wrecks of the ships sailed by the pirates the movies were about ...the Blackbeard QAR and others.


I still see the magic, but am more inquisitive, and always want to prove and secure whatever authenticity I can. Still, I do not discount items which may not carry the history I hoped for......but still have their own which is inherently present and deserves to be found as well.


You have a discerning eye, and of course know these aspects as well, and that 'tale' is pretty good. I was one of the kids back in the 50s buying bayonets out of barrels in surplus stores, and remember the awe of 'battle' and 'blooded' items

Heres one: my brother and I were out in a field one day, and found a 500 lb. apparent practice bomb (it had been a WWII air base less than a decade before) and were carrying it home. You can imagine the gasps as people looked out windows......uh.....and my mom!!!!