Faca De Ponta.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Gene,



First, a big thank you for publishing all this terrific work on a very little known subject.

I think that to answer to your question we must first look into the agricultural and slaughtering/butchering practices of the region. Given the by the then strong proliferation of firearms, these huge knives must have had some utilitarian application; I read somewhere that they were known not as faca de ponta, rather as fish butchering knives, but I haven't had the time to follow this up.

Also, as blacklacrau said, they probably were status symbols too, much like officers swords are in modern times. I think it is fair to say that the absence of a handguard suggests that these were not intended for serious fighting, rather to facilitate carriage. The gaucho saddle facons often had full size sword blades but rarely a handguard; Now why would a weapon be stripped of such a valuable feature? IMHO because ease of carriage was the first concern and they were not intended to be weapons, rather slaughtering tools. In contrast, the shorter and nimbler fighting grade facons were often fitted with cross guards.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris,

You're welcome. I've really only 'borrowed' from the work of others and tried to put it all into one place. The difficulty is wading through the mountain of inormation about the outlaws etc and trying to find snippets of info or pictures showing the knives.

Here are a couple of the better pictures. I've digitally cleaned them slightly.

[Atlantia]

Hi Chris,

Further to your observations above.
It does seem that a knife was the preferred method of killing cattle, and that this was 'extended' to be the method of dispatch of choice for 'executions'.

Interestingly (as you point out), wiki in speaking about the Bandits weapons says:
"They also made famous a thin, long, and very sharp knife called a "peixeira", a fish-cleaning knife, used mostly to torture or cut the throats of their victims."

A search of google images using 'peixeira' returns some rather upsetting images. I do not recommend it!

Your point about the guards is an excellent observation and I think realistically puts to bed any notion that these guardless examples regardless of size were meant to be routinely used in 'combat' against an armed opponent. Especially in a time where firearms were commonplace.

As is the point about them denoting status. Was there a 'cut off point' where certain sizes would be specific to certain groups?

For instance, if we take this example:

It feels like something that a well dressed chap in a'frontier town' or other urban situation might carry.

These on the other hand:

Look more like they would be at home in a gauchos belt and could be a working tool. While of course showing a noticable range of sizes. If these examples are 'gaucho' knives, do even they denote status with their size?

Which takes us to the very large examples.
I can't find any pictures of Brazilian gauchos with knives that size, only the bandits.
Nor can I find any pictures of examples that are not captioned as belonging to bandits.
Thats not any kind of proof of course, but several sites do talk about the distinctive (rather eccentric) clothing and 'style'.

It's possible as we've just discussed, that there is a different name, and they are not actually 'faca de ponta'?

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Many of the elements of the history of the Bandits that I have reproduced come from this resource:
http://lampiaoaceso.blogspot.com/

Free to reuse as long as credited.
Great site if anyone wants to have a look

[fernando]

Probably the best work on facas de ponta was written by a guy who died in March 2007, called Oswaldo Lamartine de Faria. The 59 pages work is called "APONTAMENTOS (notes) SOBRE (about) A FACA DE PONTA" and was written 1977. Despite the title, this work embraces the wide range of Brazilian knifes, specially those from the Northeast backcountry region (Sertão). Lamartine himself was a native of this region.
I will here try and post a sort of synopsis, humbly translated from his work.

It seems as the faca de ponta, a typical cangaceiro (bandit) weapon, had/has its more common type with limited dimensions, belonging to the multiuse range, that can be carried both in the waist belt or in the boot.
In the city streets they were used hanging from the belt, less often in the garter and even in the vest armpit. Priests used them under the cassock.
Those with more wealth would order them from famed workshops, made with old National Guard sword blades with 2-3 cms. width and 20-30 cms length, with grips in ivory (or bone) and gold (or silver).

The typology and nomenclature is vast: Punals (facas de ponta with blunt edges); Peixeiras; knives with estoc type three edged blades (linguas de peba); lambedeiras (extremely sharp specimens with three fingers width and 30-40 cms length.); and several others.

Naturally facas de ponta and their counterparts had their criminal side, when used with harmful intents.
Parnahybas (or Pernambucanas) were a type of faca de ponta with a thin sheet blade and exaggerated long length, also known as Facas de arrasto (dragging knives), an allegory to the time it takes to drag them off the scabbards. This is the type of knives which can be related to those used by guys like Lampião. Observing pictures taken to him and his gang, one can see the proportion of such weapons, where those used by his men had similar dimensions to that of his own.
Quoting the various authors: A punal with a 70 cms blade and 11 cms. grip (Lima de Oliveira – Lampião, cangaço e nordeste ); A steel sheet knife with 77 cms with nickel third (?) grip, adorned with three gold rings (Eduardo Barbosa – Lampião – Rei do cangaço); … Appearing the punal or knife grip with white brass sheath and measuring 50 to 70 cms of sharp blade … I saw a three edged punal, in pure steel, fine point, which only purpose was to kill and bleed those beasts (Joaquim Gois – Lampião – o ultimo cangaceiro); Childerico (…) caught his tape and measured. He was astonished with the result: seventy to eighty cms. blade of fine steel, from an old sword of the National Guard. Used to torture and bleed prisoners (Raul Raul Fernandes – A marcha de Lampião; assalto a Mossoró).

Lamartine also mentions Marchantes (professional killers) leaving their knives introduced in Cururu frogs (Bufus Marinus) for a couple days, to achieve a poisonous effect; and others that filed scoops on their Peixeiras for easier disemboweling.
Also worthy of note were knives which had rather tight scabbards, allowing them to be used upside down, hanging from their backs; the intention was to illude the adversary, by drawing the knife in an unexpectedly inverted move.

The resource for knife steel was vast: rails, wagon shafts, tools, car springs, sword points …
Materials for grips were Galalithe, ivory (from old billiard balls) horn, bone …

Attached are some of the book illustrations, comprehending specimens owned by personalities of the period and some technical diagrams.

There is no problem with royalty issues, as Lamartine himself had disposed of the work to be published at the Internet. I believe only 1000 copies were printed and were sold out long time ago.



.

[Atlantia]

Great work Nando!!!
Thank you

[Chris Evans]

'Nando,

Great post!

It throws a lot of light on this subject. Oh, how I wish that I could read Portuguese and read that fascinating book.

Gene,

The thing that strikes me most forcibly is that the cross sectional geometry of most of these facas de ponta, as with facons, is rather poor for cutting, rendering them fit mostly thrusting. As fencing weapons they are also rather poor, so that leaves slaughtering, or the more improbable function of piercing armour. Whatever edge they had, I think was there only to facilitate entry.

I also suspect that as with the middle eastern jambiya, these knives were worn mainly as items of dress rather than something to be used in earnest, though no doubt, this happened from time to time.

On another note, you may want to see the 1953 Brazilian film Ocangaceiro, which depicts life amongs these bandits. Have a look in Youtube and you'll find bits of it.

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

'Nando,

Great post!

It throws a lot of light on this subject. Oh, how I wish that I could read Portuguese and read that fascinating book.

Gene,

The thing that strikes me most forcibly is that the cross sectional geometry of most of these facas de ponta, as with facons, is rather poor for cutting, rendering them fit mostly thrusting. As fencing weapons they are also rather poor, so that leaves slaughtering, or the more improbable function of piercing armour. Whatever edge they had, I think was there only to facilitate entry.

I also suspect that as with the middle eastern jambiya, these knives were worn mainly as items of dress rather than something to be used in earnest, though no doubt, this happened from time to time.

On another note, you may want to see the 1953 Brazilian film Ocangaceiro, which depicts life amongs these bandits. Have a look in Youtube and you'll find bits of it.

Cheers
Chris

Excellent, Thanks Chris, I'll take a look.

Both of mine are sharpened on the 'cutting edge' side.
The big one could have been sharpened at a later stage I guess?
The smaller one of mine has an imported German blade and this appears to have an original ground egde (still relatively sharp).
So in the case of that one at least, it seems certain to me that it was retailed with a sharp edge.

It would be interesting to study some 'working' examples.

Also, I notice that in the final photgraph in Fernando's post, there is a 60cm example which appears to be credited to Col Rogerio Dias.
This would be the first of the very big Facas that I have seen credited to a non-bandit.

Best
Gene

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... Oh, how I wish that I could read Portuguese and read that fascinating book ...

I happen to be able to read portuguese, although i am as non schooled lousy translator .
Eventually i have emailed the post to the Brazilian guy who passed me the book link, himself a credited cuttler, and he said the resume/translation was very good .
If you feel some passages in the book are susceptible to be worthy the translation, try me.
In my resume i foccused more on the typology and some of the vast nomenclature, skipping over the folkloric and social part, proverbs and allegories related to knives and their use, the last two being more idiomatic and producing a more hibrid translation.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gene,

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Also, I notice that in the final photograph in Fernando's post, there is a 60cm example which appears to be credited to Col Rogerio Dias.
This would be the first of the very big Facas that I have seen credited to a non-bandit.

They must have had a wider market than that of the bandits, whose number was not all that great. To import, wholesale and retail blades, even make them, required a greater demand.

Fernando: Thanks for your very kind offer. Will take you up on it it, as time permits.

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Gene,



They must have had a wider market than that of the bandits, whose number was not all that great. To import, wholesale and retail blades, even make them, required a greater demand.

Fernando: Thanks for your very kind offer. Will take you up on it it, as time permits.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris,

Ah yes, the smaller ones for sure. As Nando says, not only gauchos but people in towns, even priests!

Please do share any further translated passages or info you find.

Best
Gene


WARNING. I JUST TRIED TO LOOK AT THE LINK IN NANDOS POST AND AVG SAY THE FILE IS INFECTED.
(I GOT A BIG RED BOX, 'AVG BLOCKED THREAT, FILE INFECTED')
IF YOU'VE OPENED THE LINK, DO A SCAN NOW.

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Please do share any further translated passages or info you find.

Have ypou seen this one on Lampiao, written by one of his descendants? http://iaracaju.infonet.com.br/LAMPIAO/index.htm. It is in Portuguese, but can be readily translated by one of the many on line translators.

WARNING. I JUST TRIED TO LOOK AT THE LINK IN NANDOS POST AND AVG SAY THE FILE IS INFECTED.
(I GOT A BIG RED BOX, 'AVG BLOCKED THREAT, FILE INFECTED')
IF YOU'VE OPENED THE LINK, DO A SCAN NOW.

Me too!!!!!

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Have ypou seen this one on Lampiao, written by one of his descendants? http://iaracaju.infonet.com.br/LAMPIAO/index.htm. It is in Portuguese, but can be readily translated by one of the many on line translators.




Me too!!!!!

Cheers
Chris

Good site Chris.....

I think there is more mileage in this subject so BUMP as well!

[Brezolin]

Hello guys!

Well, I have some things to say about these knives!

Primeiramente.Digite um texto ou endereço de um site ou traduza um documento.
CancelarTradução do português para inglês

First, I wanted to explain that there were no major bladesmiths industries in northeastern Brazil! Instead, we had many small shops (known as a "tenda de ferreiro"), shops that besides these knives were all blacksmithing services. For this reason, it is difficult to establish a fixed pattern of knives in the Northeast, each bladesmhit print your presonalidade their knives.

The knives were done from recycled steel of railroad, broken swords, tools obsolete... The cables were prepared in bovine horn, nobles wood, bone, ivory, silver, germain silver, nickel and some of the finest inlaid with gold.

But it was only the tip of knives that were produced in the northeast of Brazil. Other models were made as the "peixeira", "punhal língua de peba", "Parnaíba" (Gene, probably his great knife is a Parnaíba) e "canindé"...

The "peixeira" was a knife commonly used in the kitchen. Perhaps the one that was produced on a large scale, blade with great width and cable splices. Much like knives "carneadeiras" of gauchos.

The "Canindé", also known as Facão (machete) Canindé, is a larger version of the "Peixera" with great width and blade length close to 15/18". Commonly used by rural people for pastoral activities.

The "Xerenga" is not a specific type of knife, but a designation of small knives, or worthless and refinement.

The "língua de peba" (Language of armadillo.) was a weapon par excellence. Its blade is triangular cross section (similar to the language of the armadillo peba - where inherits its name), without grinding (?), only with a very sharp tip used to pierce, kill.

"Parnaíba" the knives were of great dimensions, the name comes from the city of Parnaíba - which was probably the beginning of manufacturing. For its exaggerated size was also known as "Faca de arrasto" (drag knife?) by the time it took to get out of the sheath.

Many other information about these knives that will with time posting!

Best regards

Brezolin

[DaveA]

I have some professional colleagues in Brazil. I don't feel I can prevail upon them to translate the full story, but if there important sections then please reply here or PM me. I'll post any translation(s) I receive back from them. Two or three paragraphs. That way I can parcel out the work and not be an imposition on their time.

Best,

Dave A.

[Gavin Nugent]

One from the depths of time....Gene, how'd you go with imput from other readers? Any contact?

Gav