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#31 | |
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#32 |
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But, there is nothing to stop it twisting in one's hand Eric. It's all wrong.
best regards, Richard. |
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#33 |
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In my eyes this thing works just like a buckler
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#34 | |
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When it comes to the wide spectrum of innovative and varying types of weapons in India, there really are no 'rules' or specific guidelines. What Jens was referring to with the bagh nakh corresponds more to its use as a 'weapon' by assassins which suggests an offensive (vs. defensive) and often 'concealed' item. I think that the suggestion of being 'hidden' is one widely held, as seen by comments of numerous participants here. The idea of this being 'ceremonial' I think corresponds well to that most unforgettable image of the 'prickly' executioner at durbar. It seems to me that these durbars, and exhibitions often during the reign of Queen Victoria in the Raj were the source for a good number of 'innovative' creations in weaponry intended to showcase the skills of Indian armourers. In many cases these unusual weapons were meant to appear threatening or formidable, though their often vestigial features would likely have been quite impractical in actual combat or use. I think that the item posted here in the thread topic is as has been noted, more aligned with a parry weapon, and with blades for thrust supported by the transverse grip as in katar. The bagh nakh is obviously intended for slashing and tearing, and clearly insufficient for any type of parry as would be expected in a covertly used weapon against unsuspecting victim. While not large (as many 'bucklers' were small) this has arm guards akin to the vambrace, which could offer protection in degree as used. Many Indian shields had spear points at the boss used in much the same way. |
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#35 | |
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The popularity of little shields across multiple continents suggest that they work well enough. |
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#36 | |
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Where the bagn nakh came from and what it primary use was in not easy to identify. There are a few different accounts, some say that the bagn nakh was not used in warfare, while another says it was, some mention it as a concealed or hidden weapon, others do not, a couple of references mention its use in feuds or ritual fighting, which may be were it originated. Here are a couple of quotes that mention this type of fighting with claws. The first is from "My year in an Indian fort, Volume 1", Katharine Blanche, 1877. The second is from "The Captivity, Sufferings, and Escape, of James Scurry: Who Was Detained A Prisoner During Ten Years, in the Dominions of Hyder Ali" (1824), James Scurry. Last edited by estcrh; 20th November 2015 at 08:07 AM. |
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#37 |
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Below is an print titled The Nucki-ka-koosti at Baroda: the Fight with Claws.
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#38 | |
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It seems that we have been scurrying down the wrong path here concerning the notion of 'hiding' the bagh nagh. In rereading the post by Jens, I clearly misunderstood that what he actually said was that this weapon was 'hidden in the hand'......meaning the 'claws' were enclosed in the closed hand and projecting between the fingers. It would seem that was indeed how the weapon was used, and has nothing to do with whether it was concealed prior to its actual use. I just wanted to clarify that aspect of the discussion at this point. I would like to thank you for the well thought out comments and especially the supporting and well cited material you add to your posts. I cannot emphasize how helpful that is in learning more on these weapons in these kinds of discussions. These entries are fascinating and really add to the various examples included by everyone on the thread!!! Getting back to the concealment of weapons, as you well point out, there are really no set guidelines or expectations as far as incidental use or carry of these kinds of weapons. As far as these pitched combats using these clawed weapons, clearly these kinds of 'duels' using like weapons would be occasionally seen. It seems that such 'combats' outside of normal warfare in more of a 'civilian' tone were well known in many cultures, and somewhat unconventional weapons augmented the more expected forms. In Africa, there were wrist knives, and finger knives worn like a ring to slash with much in the manner of the left hand dagger and rapier in European fencing. The origins of many weapon forms is fascinating, especially in India, where it seems the deep associations with certain animal features is clear. The haladie parrying knives came from pairs of buffalo horns, which later became metal blades. The recurve on blade forms such as the bichwa seem to recall the curvature of these horns, though the term describing them in metaphor is 'scorpions sting' . I have always been under the impression that the bagh nagh might have originally been intended to mask the dispatch of a victim by making it appear the work of a tiger. I was thinking of the covert actions of the mysterious thuggee in their unusual 'highwayman' activities, though they actually used strangulation and buried their victims with special axes and ceremony. The idea was toward the assassination concept, to blame the death on the tiger etc but perhaps simply favoring the effective nature of the natural weapons of these animals as with the horns. |
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#39 | |
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Egerton lists one madu that is 7inches but of course madu have two long horns sticking out. |
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#40 |
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Eric,
If a katar can be used for parrying, (which it definitely can!) then so can this mystery weapon with the 5-7 blades. It would not be as effective as some, but you must remember that the scabbard of a barong is/was Also used for parrying. Many European bucklers are very small and effective if one knows what he is about. No-one can deny that. Richard. |
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#41 | |
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Lord Egerton of Tatton in his book "Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour" described Indian shields as small as 10 inches as "dhal" but the madu is specifically described as being a "parrying shield". ![]() Last edited by estcrh; 22nd November 2015 at 02:18 AM. |
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#42 | ||||
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Unfortunately there have not been a lot of images available online and/or research that is readily available on bagh nagh and other small Indian hand weapons, so how these weapons were used, when they were developed and who used them has been obscured by time. Some detailed images of the claws. Last edited by estcrh; 22nd November 2015 at 10:38 AM. |
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#43 |
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The Bagh Nakh is truly a"hand-to-hand" weapon: it offers no advantage of distance. Because of that it was good as a "criminal" weapon. It also offered no protection to the user. The vambrace with blades shown here lacks both features.
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#44 | |
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The vambrace of the thread with multiple blades I agree is more akin to 'durbar fashion', as in the prickly guy in post #17, and simply of this spectrum of the innovations of Indian armourers. |
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#45 |
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The last refuge of claw fighting in Indian takes place in Mysore, the Vajramushti Kalaga is a centuries old traditional wrestling contest held in the courtyard of Mysore Palace during Dasara, each contest ends with the draw of first blood from one of the combatants participating in the duel. Vajra-musti (thunder fist/diamond fist) refers to a spiked, knuckleduster like weapon worn on the right hand.
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#46 | ||
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How common was the bank, who used it and how long was it around for? Quote:
Last edited by estcrh; 24th November 2015 at 05:52 AM. |
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#47 |
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Here is an interesting example, it is from the Pitt Rivers Museum. Some effort went into making this bagh nakh look like jewelry instead of a weapon by covering the rings with copper/brass and adding gems to the top of each ring. The Museum also included an essay with some good information.
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#48 | |
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There are two reasons why people might have carried such small shields: either they valued the convenience of a small shield, or they thought that it would probably be more effective. The 2nd isn't a sign of bravery. (But is likely to be a sign of skill.) Sometimes, no shield at all would be carried (and you can't get smaller than that!), and I don't believe such warriors were necessarily regarded as extra-brave. |
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#49 | |
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