Inlay, koftgari, repousse, chasing and neillo - Page 2

Battara · 8th March 2005, 04:20 AM

Regarding neillo: since I don't work with neillo, I will have to look up some things and then post a reply in a day or so.

Regarding granulation: yes, granulation can be done with silver or gold. Granulation is difficult period partly it uses an oven at high temperatures. The problem partly comes in that one must get the metal at just the right temperature so that it will not melt into a pure liquid but just enough to bead by itself. Today, we don't make much use of ovens like they did long ago, especially not here in the West.

GuyM · 8th March 2005, 07:33 AM

Battara,

thanks for the excellent explanations! You've given us the hand, now I'd like to have the arm: could you possibly post some picture of work in progress? It would give us an even better understanding of how each technique is applied. I'm interested in the koftgari in particular, and some others I know in the repousse and chasing.
Also and alternatively, could you recommend some books about those techniques, something like 'Koftgari for dummies'?

Thanks a bunch for sharing,

Guy

Battara · 15th March 2005, 02:47 AM

I apologize for not getting back sooner. I am battling strep throat and enfluenza

.

As far as "Koftgari for Dummies" there is nothing written. In fact, the only koftgari done at present is in India. If anyone finds a book, please let me know. Stuff in process....little tougher. If I bump into anything, I will post. Will get back with the niello question soon.

Jens Nordlunde · 15th March 2005, 05:48 PM

There are books which can be concidered - 'Koftgari for Dummies', but it is not in one book - and some of the books are old. Hendley for one, Watt is anothe place to look and I am sure that there are others, so if someone wants to put it together, it should be possible.

Jens

GuyM · 15th March 2005, 08:32 PM

Battara,

you said the only koftgary done these days is in India, surely the technique must be known and practiced elsewhere, no?. I've talked to someone in a weapons tradeshow here in Switzerland who was decorating rifles with a technique that sounds very much like koftgari (unfortunately, I didn't note down contact information and didn't have much time to discuss this particular technique longer).
I suppose however, that such craftmen learn their art from a master and not from books, so the Koftgari For Dummies manual is a long shot. :-(

Jens,
Sorry for the newbie question, but can you please give more indications about Hendley and Watt? Are they book sellers, or publishers?

Thanks

Alam Shah · 16th March 2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

Where can we get the niello material, and how is it used/applied?

Niello is a method of decorating metal objects using engraving techniques.

A method of decorating metal first used in Persia.

The desired pattern is cut rather deeply into the object to be ornamented and

the hollow filled with molten alloy of silver, copper, lead. It is then heated, rubbed with borax,

again heated, allowed to cool, rubbed smooth and burnished.

Darkened areas remain in the crevices after the object is polished.

(ref: G.C.Stone, A glossary of the construction, decoration and use of arms and armour, pg:469).

Not an easy process, skills and tools required.

Antonio Cejunior · 16th March 2005, 11:36 AM

Dan and Jose,

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise on these examples.
I certainly can only applaude and thank you for sharing all these photographs and technical explanations.

Superb!!!

Yannis · 16th March 2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The desired pattern is cut rather deeply into the object to be ornamented and

the hollow filled with molten alloy of silver, copper, lead. It is then heated, rubbed with borax,

again heated, allowed to cool, rubbed smooth and burnished.

Darkened areas remain in the crevices after the object is polished.

Alam
I am not an expert on decoration but I have seen a lot of niello, new and old, and I am not sure that it is made with this technique. In places that niello is worn, there is no engraving under. I think they made it direct on silver.
Battara?

Jens Nordlunde · 16th March 2005, 02:20 PM

Guy,

I referred to two books; sorry I should have been more precise.
Th.H. Hendley: Damascening on Steel or Iron, as Practised in India.
Georg Watt: Indian Art at Delhi 1903.

Here are a few explanations of how some the different decorations were made, and at the end you will find a picture. With a little bit of luck, you will be able to see the hatched area.

Bidri.
Bidri is an ancient way of decorating metal and other materials. Originally gold and/or silver were inlaid in copper or steel. The technique is said to have come to India from Persia around the 15th century, and was/is especially practiced around Bidar (Deccan), where the technique was refined.
The object was caste in moulds of red clay, with a mixture of wax and resin covering the mould. The alloy used is zinc, copper and lead. Then the object is roughly polished and the design drawn. The design is cut out with a chisel and the grove is cleaned with e.g. limejuice, but it is not polished as the roughen surface will help to hold the silver wire. The wire is hammered down in the cut out design. A combination of chemicals from common salt, saltpetre, copper sulphate and Sal ammoniac is applied, after which the metal turns jet-black. Another source mentions: The Bidri design is dipped in a boiled solution of natural earth found only at the Bidar Fort. A final polishing with sandpaper, charcoal and coconut and the shining silver is in sharp contrast to alloy.

Damascening.
A grove is cut in the metal and a gold or silver thread is hammered into the grove. The grove is two third of the thread. The bottom and the sides of the grove are left rough to make the thread stick better.
Nearly all men engaged in damascening in the Punjab are Mohamedans. In the Rajputana, in addition, Hindo workmen are employed.
In Sirohi true damascening is made at its best (Hendley: Damascene).

Gilding.
When gilding, the part of the weapon to be decorated is finely cut cross or crosshatched with a graver, and treated with acid to give it a broken surface. The very thin gold or silver leave is rolled on, and the decoration heated and burnished.
When a very thin gold or silver plate carefully is hammered onto another material, especially iron/steel it will make a molecular connection with the other material.
Another way to do it is to do it electrolytic.

Koftgari (false Damascening).
Koftgari or false Damascening is made by crosshatching the area to be decorated deeper that by gilding, the crosshatching is then cleaned with lime, and silver or gold thread is hammered on to the hatched area in the design wanted. The blade is heated and the decoration is either left to stand in relief or filed down to the surface. The decoration is then polished, often with an agate.

Niello.
Niello is said to have come from Egypt, where it was used for decoration in the classical times, from where it spread to Europe in the middle Ages. It was known in Kiev in the tenth to thirteenth centuries and reappeared in Russia in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, where it remained in use in the imperial period.
Niello (latin. Nigellus=blackish) is a black metallic alloy of sulfur, copper, silver and usually lead. The metal surface is brushed with a borax solution as a flux, and the alloy is rubbed into the engraved pattern on silver or gold, and then fired. When the object has cooled, and has been polished the surface is shining blank and the Niello black.

Jens

GuyM · 16th March 2005, 08:48 PM

Jens,

excellent, thanks for the references, explanations and picture.

Guy

Battara · 17th March 2005, 12:03 AM

GuyM, without seeing the piece in hand, it would be hard to speculate if what you saw in Europe was koftgari or inlay. I would suspect it was inlay. Lots of inlay was done on European arms.

Yannis, you are right. Niello is used on silver.

GuyM · 17th March 2005, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

GuyM, without seeing the piece in hand, it would be hard to speculate if what you saw in Europe was koftgari or inlay. I would suspect it was inlay. Lots of inlay was done on European arms.

Well, the artist who was demonstrating his work explained his technique exactly as you and Jens did: first the surface is crosshatched then the decorative metal is hammered onto the hatched area to form the design.
That's why I'm surprised when you say the art is practised only in India, perhaps it has been revived in Europe recently.

Guy

Battara · 31st March 2005, 11:30 PM

Finally able to get back to you on niello:

A sulfur oxide mix is used and placed in the recesses of the silver work. It is a layer of material and heat is used. Some one mentioned engraving - although engraving is not part of the niello process, engraving, chasing, stampinng, and other techniques can be used to depress the silver thus making it possible for the niello chemicals to sink and hold. Only the raised surfaces are cleaned of material and show exposed silver.

Regarding kofgari:

GuyM - for some reason I was not catching on to what you were saying. 2 days ago it hit me and you are correct - Europe has been using in effect the same or similar technique, only they call it damascening. Basically the same process though - I have seen it on earlier 15th and 16th century Spanish earred daggers and even on Italian ornate hilts. I apologize for my brain not catching on sooner (tried a brain transplant once, and...well...um...couldn't find any donors

). Again, as I mentioned earlier, today I think it is only done in India.

Marc · 1st April 2005, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Regarding kofgari:

GuyM - for some reason I was not catching on to what you were saying. 2 days ago it hit me and you are correct - Europe has been using in effect the same or similar technique, only they call it damascening. Basically the same process though - I have seen it on earlier 15th and 16th century Spanish earred daggers and even on Italian ornate hilts. I apologize for my brain not catching on sooner (tried a brain transplant once, and...well...um...couldn't find any donors

). Again, as I mentioned earlier, today I think it is only done in India.

I'm afraid I have to disagree about damascening being only done today in India...

There's a quite big damascening industry in Spain, with a tradition of centuries. Today, it centers around the Toledo Schools of damascening. Their work can be seen in all the gift shops that plague the country, with a wide range of qualities and applied to the most varied objects, though mainly focused on jewellery and decoration. Some examples, taken from a what could be a typical gift shop:

High-end Spanish damascening has been considered a prized collectible (link)for a long time, with the 19th c. seeing some of the most refined masters of the art, as were the Zuloaga family.

The main technique is essentially a variation of the koftgari process (link). It is supposed to have arrived to Spain with the Moorish invasions at the beginning of the 8th c.

I'm also sure this tradition is alive in other places, as well.

Yannis · 1st April 2005, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

I am not sure that it is made with this technique. In places that niello is worn, there is no engraving under. I think they made it direct on silver.

I have to change this statement. I checked recently some more old niello and indeed in some cases it is applied into engraving as Jens says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

and the alloy is rubbed into the engraved pattern on silver or gold, and then fired. When the object has cooled, and has been polished the surface is shining blank and the Niello black.

Now I believe that niello is applied both methods: Direct on silver or into engraved pattern. Common sense says that second method gives more endurance.

Battara · 1st April 2005, 04:38 PM

Thank you Marc. I was not aware of this.

Yannis, both are correct. Niello must be applied directly onto silver, but only in the recessed areas of the silver. Recessed areas are done by use of chasing, engraving, planishing, stamping, etc. Thus it will have more endurance over time as you suggest. As I mentioned, only the raised areas (those that stand out) will not be niello but exposed silver.

Battara · 1st April 2005, 04:40 PM

duplicate

8th March 2005, 07:33 AM	#32
GuyM Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 18	Pictures of work in progress Battara, thanks for the excellent explanations! You've given us the hand, now I'd like to have the arm: could you possibly post some picture of work in progress? It would give us an even better understanding of how each technique is applied. I'm interested in the koftgari in particular, and some others I know in the repousse and chasing. Also and alternatively, could you recommend some books about those techniques, something like 'Koftgari for dummies'? Thanks a bunch for sharing, Guy

16th March 2005, 11:36 AM	#37
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Superb examples Dan and Jose, Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and expertise on these examples. I certainly can only applaude and thank you for sharing all these photographs and technical explanations. Superb!!!

16th March 2005, 02:20 PM	#39
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Guy, I referred to two books; sorry I should have been more precise. Th.H. Hendley: Damascening on Steel or Iron, as Practised in India. Georg Watt: Indian Art at Delhi 1903. Here are a few explanations of how some the different decorations were made, and at the end you will find a picture. With a little bit of luck, you will be able to see the hatched area. Bidri. Bidri is an ancient way of decorating metal and other materials. Originally gold and/or silver were inlaid in copper or steel. The technique is said to have come to India from Persia around the 15th century, and was/is especially practiced around Bidar (Deccan), where the technique was refined. The object was caste in moulds of red clay, with a mixture of wax and resin covering the mould. The alloy used is zinc, copper and lead. Then the object is roughly polished and the design drawn. The design is cut out with a chisel and the grove is cleaned with e.g. limejuice, but it is not polished as the roughen surface will help to hold the silver wire. The wire is hammered down in the cut out design. A combination of chemicals from common salt, saltpetre, copper sulphate and Sal ammoniac is applied, after which the metal turns jet-black. Another source mentions: The Bidri design is dipped in a boiled solution of natural earth found only at the Bidar Fort. A final polishing with sandpaper, charcoal and coconut and the shining silver is in sharp contrast to alloy. Damascening. A grove is cut in the metal and a gold or silver thread is hammered into the grove. The grove is two third of the thread. The bottom and the sides of the grove are left rough to make the thread stick better. Nearly all men engaged in damascening in the Punjab are Mohamedans. In the Rajputana, in addition, Hindo workmen are employed. In Sirohi true damascening is made at its best (Hendley: Damascene). Gilding. When gilding, the part of the weapon to be decorated is finely cut cross or crosshatched with a graver, and treated with acid to give it a broken surface. The very thin gold or silver leave is rolled on, and the decoration heated and burnished. When a very thin gold or silver plate carefully is hammered onto another material, especially iron/steel it will make a molecular connection with the other material. Another way to do it is to do it electrolytic. Koftgari (false Damascening). Koftgari or false Damascening is made by crosshatching the area to be decorated deeper that by gilding, the crosshatching is then cleaned with lime, and silver or gold thread is hammered on to the hatched area in the design wanted. The blade is heated and the decoration is either left to stand in relief or filed down to the surface. The decoration is then polished, often with an agate. Niello. Niello is said to have come from Egypt, where it was used for decoration in the classical times, from where it spread to Europe in the middle Ages. It was known in Kiev in the tenth to thirteenth centuries and reappeared in Russia in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, where it remained in use in the imperial period. Niello (latin. Nigellus=blackish) is a black metallic alloy of sulfur, copper, silver and usually lead. The metal surface is brushed with a borax solution as a flux, and the alloy is rubbed into the engraved pattern on silver or gold, and then fired. When the object has cooled, and has been polished the surface is shining blank and the Niello black. Jens Attached Images

8th March 2005, 04:20 AM	#31
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Regarding neillo: since I don't work with neillo, I will have to look up some things and then post a reply in a day or so. Regarding granulation: yes, granulation can be done with silver or gold. Granulation is difficult period partly it uses an oven at high temperatures. The problem partly comes in that one must get the metal at just the right temperature so that it will not melt into a pure liquid but just enough to bead by itself. Today, we don't make much use of ovens like they did long ago, especially not here in the West.

15th March 2005, 02:47 AM	#33
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I apologize for not getting back sooner. I am battling strep throat and enfluenza . As far as "Koftgari for Dummies" there is nothing written. In fact, the only koftgari done at present is in India. If anyone finds a book, please let me know. Stuff in process....little tougher. If I bump into anything, I will post. Will get back with the niello question soon.

15th March 2005, 05:48 PM	#34
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	There are books which can be concidered - 'Koftgari for Dummies', but it is not in one book - and some of the books are old. Hendley for one, Watt is anothe place to look and I am sure that there are others, so if someone wants to put it together, it should be possible. Jens

15th March 2005, 08:32 PM	#35
GuyM Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 18	Battara, you said the only koftgary done these days is in India, surely the technique must be known and practiced elsewhere, no?. I've talked to someone in a weapons tradeshow here in Switzerland who was decorating rifles with a technique that sounds very much like koftgari (unfortunately, I didn't note down contact information and didn't have much time to discuss this particular technique longer). I suppose however, that such craftmen learn their art from a master and not from books, so the Koftgari For Dummies manual is a long shot. :-( Jens, Sorry for the newbie question, but can you please give more indications about Hendley and Watt? Are they book sellers, or publishers? Thanks

16th March 2005, 08:48 PM	#40
GuyM Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 18	Jens, excellent, thanks for the references, explanations and picture. Guy

17th March 2005, 12:03 AM	#41
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	GuyM, without seeing the piece in hand, it would be hard to speculate if what you saw in Europe was koftgari or inlay. I would suspect it was inlay. Lots of inlay was done on European arms. Yannis, you are right. Niello is used on silver.

31st March 2005, 11:30 PM	#43
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Finally able to get back to you on niello: A sulfur oxide mix is used and placed in the recesses of the silver work. It is a layer of material and heat is used. Some one mentioned engraving - although engraving is not part of the niello process, engraving, chasing, stampinng, and other techniques can be used to depress the silver thus making it possible for the niello chemicals to sink and hold. Only the raised surfaces are cleaned of material and show exposed silver. Regarding kofgari: GuyM - for some reason I was not catching on to what you were saying. 2 days ago it hit me and you are correct - Europe has been using in effect the same or similar technique, only they call it damascening. Basically the same process though - I have seen it on earlier 15th and 16th century Spanish earred daggers and even on Italian ornate hilts. I apologize for my brain not catching on sooner (tried a brain transplant once, and...well...um...couldn't find any donors ). Again, as I mentioned earlier, today I think it is only done in India.

1st April 2005, 04:38 PM	#46
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Thank you Marc. I was not aware of this. Yannis, both are correct. Niello must be applied directly onto silver, but only in the recessed areas of the silver. Recessed areas are done by use of chasing, engraving, planishing, stamping, etc. Thus it will have more endurance over time as you suggest. As I mentioned, only the raised areas (those that stand out) will not be niello but exposed silver.

1st April 2005, 04:40 PM	#47
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	duplicate