A Keris for slashing... - Page 2

David · 3rd June 2011, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrwizard

@David
Quite possible that it is indeed from Sumbawa, the real story behind this keris is most likely lost in time.
The keris is currently enjoying an extended bath in pineapple juice. I guess one or two more days and it will be clean. I will certainly post pictures when its ready

Very cool. I'd love to see this blade cleaned up. Do you also plan on giving it a warangan treatment?

A. G. Maisey · 3rd June 2011, 01:59 PM

Thilo, most keris do not remain untouched from the time they are born until the time they die.

The gonjo may be changed several times, if it is an old and honoured family keris, the gonjo may be removed and incorporated into a new keris,or the original gonjo may be removed and replaced with a plain iron one that has kinatah work added. Many old keris that date from prior to the time of Sultan Agung had their gonjo removed and replaced with black iron upon the order of Sultan Agung.

Part of the normal maintenance of a keris is that the edges of the blade are cleaned up to remove fraying.

And as already pointed out, the pesi is often shortened, and occasionally lengthened, to accommodate the desired hilt.

Yes, they have sometimes been altered to make them more attractive for sale. The usual alterations of this nature are to put waves into a straight keris, and to create a surface manipulated pamor like udan mas or banyu tetes on a heavy bodied old keris --- mostly the big heavy old Tuban keris are used for this. It is sometimes very difficult to know if a keris has been altered when looking at photos, but for anybody with just a little bit of knowledge and experience, it is very easy to detect an altered blade once it is in the hand.

From what I believe I can see in the photos of your keris, I think it may need a fairly long time in the pineapple juice. It requires daily brushing, rinsing, cleaning whilst it is being given the pine juice treatment, the little hard bits of rust need to be picked off with a sharp tool.

mrwizard · 3rd June 2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Do you also plan on giving it a warangan treatment?

No, for the simple reason that i don't want to mess with arsenic substances (neither As4S4 nor As2O3) at home.
I will most likely use FeCl3 or some other substitute i am currently experimenting with. Of course, I will post the results of this experiment to the forum.

Best Regards,
Thilo

mrwizard · 3rd June 2011, 02:34 PM

Hello Alan,

Thanks again for this interesting insight into the life-cycle of a keris. Your posts are always very enlightening for a beginner like me

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

From what I believe I can see in the photos of your keris, I think it may need a fairly long time in the pineapple juice. It requires daily brushing, rinsing, cleaning whilst it is being given the pine juice treatment, the little hard bits of rust need to be picked off with a sharp tool.

Of course, i have read most posts about keris cleaning on this forum beforehand.

The keris is bathing in the solution since last sunday. I'm taking it out twice a day for brushing and intermediate cleaning... and it is coming along nicely.
In fact the rust looked worse than it was. It was mostly surface rust with minimum pitting. Some of the stuff that looked like rust at first glance was actually just organic gunk. Probably residue from some blade protecting substance...

Best Regards,
Thilo

A. G. Maisey · 4th June 2011, 12:47 AM

That's encouraging.

Working with arsenic is really no big deal, and provided common sense is used, it most definitely is not dangerous. The biggest problem with arsenic is getting access to it. However, I do understand the reluctance to use it.

Up until comparatively recently in Australia, arsenic was commonly used as a protective substance for timber. I think it was banned for this use about 10 years ago. I have been told by somebody in the industry that the chief reason it was banned was that people refused to heed warnings, and continued to use scrapped, treated timber as firewood, which releases the arsenic as fumes.

The people who worked with arsenic in treating the timber needed to have a periodic scan to ensure that there was no evidence of arsenic in their blood.

In an organisation that I audited there were around 200 men involved in the treatment of timber poles with arsenic. This was their work, 40 hours a week, 48 weeks a year. The reported positive results from arsenic scans over a five year period was three, and to be positive only a miniscule hint of arsenic in the result was required.

Follow safe working procedure and arsenic is not dangerous.

However, if you're not confident, don't use it.

It could well be that at the end of the cleaning process you will find that the blade pattern is sufficiently clear to satisfy your requirement. This often happens with an old blade. My guess is that it is caused by the action of the pine juice on residual arsenic.

mrwizard · 4th June 2011, 02:17 AM

Hello Alan,

Of course everything is safe when handled properly. I have handled substances far more dangerous than Arsenic Trioxide. For instance, i used Hydrofluoric acid to clean silicon wafers. But i received training in handling such substances, worked in a lab, wore protective gear and handled the chemicals inside a flow-box. That is a completely different scenario than handling/storing this stuff at home in your garden or kitchen - especially if little children are around.

So the question i asked myself was not if arsenic is dangerous to me, but if it is dangerous to the (often unaware) people around me. Another factor is that while staining keris is interesting, it is not really an important aspect of my life. For those reasons i choose not to use arsenic. People living under different conditions may of course decide otherwise. :-)

Best Regards,
Thilo

A. G. Maisey · 4th June 2011, 03:10 AM

Thanks for that explanation Thilo, I understand perfectly.

I keep not only arsenic, but all other hazardous substances around the house under lock and key, and only I have the key.

I've found that wives can sometimes be as vacuous as young children --- but if you're asked, I never said that.

mrwizard · 5th June 2011, 12:29 PM

Here are some impressions of the keris just after cleaning. The staining is still from the fruit acids of the pineapple juice (or possibly from residual arsenic as Alan wrote).

Best Regards,
Thilo

5th June 2011, 12:29 PM	#38
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Here are some impressions of the keris just after cleaning. The staining is still from the fruit acids of the pineapple juice (or possibly from residual arsenic as Alan wrote). Best Regards, Thilo Attached Images

3rd June 2011, 01:59 PM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Thilo, most keris do not remain untouched from the time they are born until the time they die. The gonjo may be changed several times, if it is an old and honoured family keris, the gonjo may be removed and incorporated into a new keris,or the original gonjo may be removed and replaced with a plain iron one that has kinatah work added. Many old keris that date from prior to the time of Sultan Agung had their gonjo removed and replaced with black iron upon the order of Sultan Agung. Part of the normal maintenance of a keris is that the edges of the blade are cleaned up to remove fraying. And as already pointed out, the pesi is often shortened, and occasionally lengthened, to accommodate the desired hilt. Yes, they have sometimes been altered to make them more attractive for sale. The usual alterations of this nature are to put waves into a straight keris, and to create a surface manipulated pamor like udan mas or banyu tetes on a heavy bodied old keris --- mostly the big heavy old Tuban keris are used for this. It is sometimes very difficult to know if a keris has been altered when looking at photos, but for anybody with just a little bit of knowledge and experience, it is very easy to detect an altered blade once it is in the hand. From what I believe I can see in the photos of your keris, I think it may need a fairly long time in the pineapple juice. It requires daily brushing, rinsing, cleaning whilst it is being given the pine juice treatment, the little hard bits of rust need to be picked off with a sharp tool.

4th June 2011, 12:47 AM	#35
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	That's encouraging. Working with arsenic is really no big deal, and provided common sense is used, it most definitely is not dangerous. The biggest problem with arsenic is getting access to it. However, I do understand the reluctance to use it. Up until comparatively recently in Australia, arsenic was commonly used as a protective substance for timber. I think it was banned for this use about 10 years ago. I have been told by somebody in the industry that the chief reason it was banned was that people refused to heed warnings, and continued to use scrapped, treated timber as firewood, which releases the arsenic as fumes. The people who worked with arsenic in treating the timber needed to have a periodic scan to ensure that there was no evidence of arsenic in their blood. In an organisation that I audited there were around 200 men involved in the treatment of timber poles with arsenic. This was their work, 40 hours a week, 48 weeks a year. The reported positive results from arsenic scans over a five year period was three, and to be positive only a miniscule hint of arsenic in the result was required. Follow safe working procedure and arsenic is not dangerous. However, if you're not confident, don't use it. It could well be that at the end of the cleaning process you will find that the blade pattern is sufficiently clear to satisfy your requirement. This often happens with an old blade. My guess is that it is caused by the action of the pine juice on residual arsenic.

4th June 2011, 02:17 AM	#36
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Hello Alan, Of course everything is safe when handled properly. I have handled substances far more dangerous than Arsenic Trioxide. For instance, i used Hydrofluoric acid to clean silicon wafers. But i received training in handling such substances, worked in a lab, wore protective gear and handled the chemicals inside a flow-box. That is a completely different scenario than handling/storing this stuff at home in your garden or kitchen - especially if little children are around. So the question i asked myself was not if arsenic is dangerous to me, but if it is dangerous to the (often unaware) people around me. Another factor is that while staining keris is interesting, it is not really an important aspect of my life. For those reasons i choose not to use arsenic. People living under different conditions may of course decide otherwise. :-) Best Regards, Thilo

4th June 2011, 03:10 AM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Thanks for that explanation Thilo, I understand perfectly. I keep not only arsenic, but all other hazardous substances around the house under lock and key, and only I have the key. I've found that wives can sometimes be as vacuous as young children --- but if you're asked, I never said that.