Visayan Weapons Study

[KuKulzA28]

is this still going on?

[ThePepperSkull]

I am also curious about this. What ever happened to LabanTayo and Zelbone's work?

I have seen some of their youtube vids of cutting practice using modern made blades, a lot of them visayan and often times associated with specific schools (I.E. a Cebuano pinuti design which is stated to most liekly be used by the Doce Pares society, or the ginunting/talibong designs from the Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Camp.), as well as pictures of bagobo, T'boli, and mandaya bolos that Zel posted on other forums.

Seems to have just stopped posting though. I would be very interested to see any new developments on their part.

[Dimasalang]

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. I actually wanted to ask the same question. More research needs to be done in this area before it is too late. The following of Visayan weapons seems to be snowballing now. I'd hate to see a lot of 'false' history being spread due to the fast growing popularity. Obviously with no clear cut history and research, a lot of Filipinos will be quick to tell their own made up stories/versions on how certain weapons came about(I see this a lot now in FMA).

I hope to hear more from Lorenz and Nacho as well.

[Spunjer]

Obviously with no clear cut history and research, a lot of Filipinos will be quick to tell their own made up stories/versions on how certain weapons came about(I see this a lot now in FMA).

Actually, one of the main reason why i got into this field. I just didn't quite understand why an FMA instructor would do a demo using a moro kris... technically, one could use the kris, but you could also use a dha or a katana for that matter. Majority of FMA styles are visayan, moros practice variants of silat. They're about as similar as kung fu and western boxing....
Visayan weapons are much harder to study due to its scarcity, i reckon. Rare, those buggers

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

I hope to hear more from Lorenz and Nacho as well.

Huh?! talking to me? It's Nacho actually who's very knowledgeable in Visayan swords, among others.

But am with you. As we are able to dig up quality and verified info, we will certainly share them with everybody. Thanks.

[Battara]

One problem is that there is a lot of misinformation and speculation already on Visayan pieces, some on this forum (early threads). That is why I started the thread on sanduko blades to post real and bona fide field research in this area.

The more real research the merrier.

[nacho]

Miguel Diaz, Nonoy Tan, Jude and I visited the National Museum weapons storage room 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately no pics allowed (a guard closely followed us around). Weapons were from the St. Louis Expo. Items captured from the Philippine-American War. Many Panay swords. Some observations:

-- plenty of tenegres with S-guards and D-guards. These generally have thinner, longer blades. Probably an adaptation by revolutionary officers (copied the look of European-style sabers). members of the Panay Bukidnon tribe whom we interviewed at the Iloilo Museum last year actually call these swords "sab-li" (saber).

-- a version of the tenegre with three protruding horns (the one Spunjer refers to as the Batman) was labeled as captured in Infanta, Quezon. Probably an import from Panay. Miguel Diaz, though thinks, "what if?'

-- several tenegres without any guard. In past threads, there was a tendency to say these were of later make. Well, it seems we cant make that generalization.

-- most common among scabbards were those with 4 inch leather bindings towards the top and carabao horn wrapped up to the bottom. The scabbard bottom either straight horizontal, sligthly slanting or curved (the curve, though is never as long or pronounced as that of the Panay Bukidnon sandukos). One interesting scabbard had the standard Catmon flower design but instead of a metal cut-out, this was painted in red, white and green.

-- I am now more convinced that the Panay Bukidnon sanduko is the "grandfather" design of the Panay tenegres. All the key features are very well illustrated (the elephant trunk, goat horn, teeth of a boar, bulging eyes, and the triangular hat). In the tenegres of the lowlanders, these are often stylized -- but a careful examination will reveal that they are still there. The isolation of the Panay Bukidnons kept their sword design relatively pure.

And where did that design come from? Look at the kingfisher kris of Pattani. All the key features are the same. Both represent a makara. The traingular hat is a karranda mahkota.

Pattani was at farthest outpost of the Srivijaya empire (at its peak). The ceramic evidence in the Philippines shows trade with Penninsular Thailand (bordering Malaysia) as early as 9th - 12th.

So, either the kris Pattani and the Panay sanduko had the same design inspiration or the Panay Sanduko was copied from kris Pattani.

Five years ago, I wrote a paper for Museo Iloilo on pottery excavated in Isla Gigantes, in the North Eastern part of Panay. On top of local pottery, there were early Thai (Dvaravati period) and Cambodian ceramics dated to 8th -10th century. This confirms trade with Penninsular Thailand and Cambodia during that period. If they traded ceramics, how about a sword or two?

The songs and epics of the Panay Bukidnon are all about the sea and travelling across it. While they have lived in the mountains for as long as they can remember, their oral tradition says they used to be seafarers.

[Nonoy Tan]

Some time ago, migueldiaz, nacho, Jude and I met each other in this forum and then decided to hold informal meetings in Manila, as we are all residents of the Philippines. Our latest meeting was held at the premises of the National Museum of the Philippines. Since the time we organized ourselves, we have been sharing collections, and collaborating to put together factual information on Philippine weaponry. Together we hope to share these information to the rest of the community in the future, as some research projects are on-going.

[David]

Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

Some time ago, migueldiaz, nacho, Jude and I met each other in this forum and then decided to hold informal meetings in Manila, as we are all residents of the Philippines. Our latest meeting was held at the premises of the National Museum of the Philippines. Since the time we organized ourselves, we have been sharing collections, and collaborating to put together factual information on Philippine weaponry. Together we hope to share these information to the rest of the community in the future, as some research projects are on-going.

This is great to hear. I really look forward to seeing your research develop!

[Battara]

WWWEEEEEE!!!!!!!

[Nonoy Tan]

Thanks to this Forum for bringing migueldiaz, nacho, Jude and Nonoy Tan together!

[Battara]

Wish I could be there.......

[Robert]

Gentlemen,
If there is any way that I can be of any help on this project please let me know.

Robert