keris and spirit

[David]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Then, it is free choice for him to think whether it is a sign or not regarding with the "power" of his new Keris.

Yep, sometimes it's all just a matter of how you look at the world.
Yet even those of us who adopt a magickal world view also realize that making things happen in our lives is often the fruit of much hard work. I remember once attending a workshop on sigil working. A sigil is a symbol, like a seal, that is created for a specific magickal purpose. One guy in the workshop asked if there was some special sigil one could use to help him get a job. The instuctor thought for a moment and then told the guy "Yes, it's called a resumé!"

[A. G. Maisey]

May I congratulate you, Raden, upon achieving your desire to own a keris by Empu Djeno.

You know, it would not surprise me if many more people who ordered keris prior to Empu Djeno's return to his Father's House recieved news that their orders had been finished prior to Empu Djeno's departure.It is even possible that all keris ordered from Empu Djeno were finished long ago, and the only reason for delay in delivery has been because of the time taken to dress these blades in a suitable fashion.

Regarding the fire at the Keraton Surakarta Hadiningrat in 1985.

For some time, prior to this fire , Sinuhun had not infrequently remarked to his close friends that he was disappointed that he had reached the evening of his life, but he still had not built a keraton of his own.

The length of time that a Javanese keraton is allowed to stand is traditionally recognised as 100 years.

Bearing in mind these two facts, one must question whether the power of the pusakas was to prevent the destruction of a keraton that had already outlived its allotted span, or whether the power was one of renewal to assist in creation of a new keraton.

[Lei Shen Dao]

When I asked young smith Sungkowo whether there is different between keris used meteorite pamor and nickel pamor regarding with its strength of "power". He answered "most probably, yes, there is."

Hi

Considering the meteorite and the "power" of a keris, I know that a keris must have meteorite in order to keep in it the power/spirit of the empu.

A spirit is consider a yin thing in most cases. The meteorite, is also of yin quality coming from space...So there is a need for a yin material to have a yin spirit in it.

From what I've heard in the past, there is a need for a keris to be powerful, to include meteorite inside. Otherwise, there is no spirit in it.

Best

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

or whether the power was one of renewal to assist in creation of a new keraton.

Alan,

it is new info for me. very fruitful. thank you very much.
sometimes, we get the truth longafter we concluded it. and too many times truth and conclusion differ.

[A. G. Maisey]

Raden, I am not stating a truth, for I do not know what is the truth.

I am merely proposing an alternative way of looking at an event which did occur and that at the time of its occurrence was surrounded with mystery and rumour.

[David]

Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao

Hi

Considering the meteorite and the "power" of a keris, I know that a keris must have meteorite in order to keep in it the power/spirit of the empu.

A spirit is consider a yin thing in most cases. The meteorite, is also of yin quality coming from space...So there is a need for a yin material to have a yin spirit in it.

From what I've heard in the past, there is a need for a keris to be powerful, to include meteorite inside. Otherwise, there is no spirit in it.

Best

Can you reference this information to any known old writings or authority. I have never heard this before, that only a keris with meteorite in it can hold a spirit. I also have yet to see any provable reference to meteorite being used before the Prambanan fall in the mid 18th century. I have searched records and can find no known iron bearing meteorite fall in Jawa before the Prambanan fall. And this is a subject we have really discussed in some depth here in the past with no reliable evidence ever coming to the surface. I would like to see substantiated claims for this kind of information. Unsubstantiated claims only perpetuate these myths about meteorite use and bring us no closer to the truth of the matter.
Personally i would like to believe that what you are claiming here is true, but i get tired of seeing these types of claims repeated again and again with no real evidence to back them up.

[Lei Shen Dao]

Personally i would like to believe that what you are claiming here is true, but i get tired of seeing these types of claims repeated again and again with no real evidence to back them up.

Hi

I can understand your point.

However, I never said that I am a specialist in keris affairs....

I am just quoting what I have heard in the past and even now, by some people from Java and Surabaya, people who I estimate and respect a lot, for their opinion in matters like these. People who handle, thousands of keris literally, and live with these objects for many years knowing every single aspect of keris. They are considered experts in this field and the most important is that they don't make a living from selling keris, so their knowledge is completely "clean" if I may say.

I just offered an explanation from another point of view. Everyone is free to believe it or not. It is just another opinion.

I am not just a collector of keris (I only have 4 keris and one tombak, so not too much of a collector yet, I guess ).
I am interested into the metaphysics, so I see this aspect of keris culture with a genuine interest.

If someone here has an experience concerning the power of a keris, does he have also to prove his claims or to indicate some kind of source? I don't think so.
This is the same with me (please keep in mind that I could share stories too, but I choose not to do so, out of respect to such sensitive matters).

There were meteorites before Prambanan. Small ones in villages and in the wild, or from trading with other countries like China for example and the list goes on. Small meteorites fall all the time in the planet.
Prambanan just happened to have good "public relations"

Best

[David]

Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao

If someone here has an experience concerning the power of a keris, does he have also to prove his claims or to indicate some kind of source? I don't think so.

If someone is relating a personal experience here there is no need to ask for the source of the information. It is a first person experince so the source is obvious. I then have the choice of believing them or not.
When someone relates knowledge or experience that is not their own i feel perfectly comfortable asking them where they heard or read such a thing. I then also have the choice of believing the source or not.
Many things are said about the keris, some true and some not. Some are provable and some are not. I have no doubt that there are even things we will never be able to prove about the keris that are still likely to be true regardless.
Still, i see no point in blindly accepting unsubstantiated statements without questioning both the source and the content of such statements. You may choose to disregard the questions, but i certainly mean no disrespect in asking them.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

in late 1990s, local newspaper reported there was small meteorite fallen down in Temanggung county, Central Java. Soon after that, I aimed to go there. Unfortunely, my acquintance informed that there was no meteorite anymore. The biggest one was occupied by the local government. The smaller debris were for "first come first get".

not really pararel with Lei Shen Dao story:

For some Indonesian people whenever they face serious problem, it is quite common, till nowadays, they do meditate in certain area which believed sacred place. For example, in mountain, beach, jungle, tomb et cetera. Then, quite common fairytails, they are satisfied if during their meditation finding someting, for instance: stone (either raw stone or already "akik" shape), wood, keris. For them, those thing are pusakas or jimat.

Yes of course, 99% of cases are fakes. Why, because generally in doing meditation, there is Dukun involvement. Seemingly, Dukun has thousand ways to deceive his clients.

Now, lets consider with the 1% which really happen. If we read the biography of Sultan HB IX of Yagyakarta, in certain chapter there is explanation of spiritual experience. Especially, in the early period of Indonesian independence. Yes, for me, I simply tend to believe on HB IX statement because he did not need to make "imaginative stories" for his fame. No need at all. So it was written so it was happened.

Okay, to sum up, I would like to raise a premise here. Was there any possibility someone finding a small meteorite during his meditation in the mountain? Then, he gave that meteorite to Empu for his commisoned keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Okay, to sum up, I would like to raise a premise here. Was there any possibility someone finding a small meteorite during his meditation in the mountain? Then, he gave that meteorite to Empu for his commisoned keris.

Of course such a thing is possible and may very well have happened...but one should also keep in mind that not every piece of rock that falls from the sky would be the type of iron/nickel meteorite needed to make the proper pamor material. In fact, most meteorites would be useless for the process. Still, perhaps someone found a small piece of the right stuff and had a powerful keris made with it. Where did the next piece come from....and the next? Because if it is true that only meteorite can create a powerful keris with spirit one has to wonder where all that meteorite came from, enough to make enough powerful, spirit filled keris that it became the only way to make a spirit-filled keris. Certainly people would have me believe that while every keris is not a "powerful" keris there are enough of them out there to sustain the myth. If not powerful then at least ones that hold spirit. So where did the meteorite come from for all those kraton keris pusaka made before the Prambanan fall. For just those keris alone that's a lot of a fairly rare material to come up with from meditating on a hill top. Were any spirit-filled keris made outside the kraton? It's even a lot of material if you include trading, even if it is a material the Chinese or some other culture would be willing to trade. I am not saying that it is not possible that it happened. But i would love to find just one grain of evidence. Some old Chinese trade records perhaps. Some old Javanese writings that mention the use of meteorite in pre-Prambanan keris. AFAIK no such records exist.
Please forgive me if i sound a little frustrated when discussing this subject. It is just that we have been around and round on the meteorite issue many times before with very little resolution. I highly recommend that the new members here take the time to use the search feature for both this and the old forum to see where we have already been on this subject. Try "meteorite keris" as your keywords.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

in late 1990s, local newspaper reported there was small meteorite fallen down in Temanggung county, Central Java. Soon after that, I aimed to go there. Unfortunely, my acquintance informed that there was no meteorite anymore. The biggest one was occupied by the local government. The smaller debris were for "first come first get"..

Even if you got it, Mas Usman, you cannot forge a keris from the Temanggung meteorite, since it was a stony-type meteorite. If I don't mistaken, only 10% of the fall are iron-type meteorite. The best meteorite for pamor material should contains around 10% nickel.

As David mentioned, no reliable evidence nor record that keris' pamor was made from meteorite before the fall of Prambanan Meteorite. Some old books describe many kind of iron, with it's characteristic and it's origin which sometimes refers to region like Kamboja (Campuchea) or Sailan (Ceylon) or mythological origin, but none could be interpreted as originated 'from the sky'. If the meteorite is very powerful, then the most powerful blade should be the old Eskimos/Inuit knives, as it was made from 100% meteorite iron. (before the remaining meteorite was 'stolen', of course).

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...meteorite.html
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/perm...t/capeyork.php

The most common/familiar scientific study on keris/pamor materials for Indonesian keris lovers is the work of Haryono Arumbinang. If his non-destructive chemical analysis valid, we (and he also) conclude that the old blades (if his dating method, which rely on Tangguh, reliable) always contain iron (Fe) and Titanium (Ti) and no Nickel (Ni) content. On the contrary, the nem-neman blades always contain Ni and no Ti. As the iron meteorite should contains some Ni, then we could conclude from Arumbinang's work (despite of Arumbinang's conclusion), no old blade was made/mixed with iron from meteorite. And those which contains Ni is not necessarily made from meteorite iron neither.


For nickel contents in iron meteorites :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_meteorite

[David]

Thanks Boedhi, interesting links.
Here is just one of the many discussions we have had in the past on these forums about the subject of meteorite in keris pamor. I would recommend everyone interested give it a good read (or re-read ) and also search and read all the other numerous threads on the subject so that hopefully we can bring some new information to the table.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...eris+meteorite

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by David

AFAIK no such records exist.
Please forgive me if i sound a little frustrated when discussing this subject. It is just that we have been around and round on the meteorite issue many times before with very little resolution. I highly recommend that the new members here take the time to use the search feature for both this and the old forum to see where we have already been on this subject. Try "meteorite keris" as your keywords.

David,

yes, you are right. there is lack of written evidence, especially scientific/objective written evidence. even today, written recording is not usual yet. yeah... simply related to the culture of society. the knowlegde of oldsmith transferred orally to youngsmith. why? to many explanation: illiteracy, culture, secret recipe, delegitimation and so on. this realm happens not only in keris field but also in other field which involving magical aspects.

I can understand if discussing the same topic again and again and again has disturbed you. Lets move further. Leave meteorite issue because it is part of the past. How about spirit? If it is an old one, too... so lets stop this topic and change with a new one. Any new issue offer?... or just go to the other thread... something new and interesting there...21st century dapur.

Usmen

[David]

Well Usmen, i don't think the idea of meteorite used in keris pamor is a matter of secrecy. The idea is far too common in the general keris consciousness to be meant as a secret.
I am also not "disturbed" by the discussion, but i do think that it is important to understand just how deeply we have covered this subject. I have linked to just one 5 page thread on the subject and there are many more. They are all a good and interesting read and i highly recommend that if you have not already tackled the task (yes, there is a lot of reading ) that you and others do take the time to see where we have been and what has been discussed. It is not my desire to stop the discussion here. I just don't want to see it get bogged down in the same old pitfalls.
You suggest that we leave the subject in the past and talk about spirit, but we are talking about meteorite now in relation to spirit so it really is relavent to this thread. Hopeful we can, if not now, then perhaps someday, cross new territory on this subject that will enlighten us all.

[Lei Shen Dao]

You may choose to disregard the questions, but i certainly mean no disrespect in asking them.

David

No problem. I know that you mean no disrespect and of course I don't disregard your questions.

I just happened to know the opinion of some people from this part of the world (the keris land ) and I thought it was good to sare with you.

I respect their wish for anonymity, so I guess this makes my statements dubious. I hope not too much though.

Best

[David]

Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao

I just happened to know the opinion of some people from this part of the world (the keris land ) and I thought it was good to sare with you.

Opinions are always welcome here i would never automatically dismiss them. However, i don't like to see opinions presented as fact. What we believe and what we know are not always the same thing. What we believe might well be true, but without evidence we can never be sure. I do not disbelieve your statements about meteorite and keris, but even if you were to name the honorable people who hold the same opinion it would still remain a belief that none of us can claim to know for sure.
So no, your statements aren't too dubious.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, what I shall now write is not intended as disagreement with the position you have put, it is just another way of looking at "truth".

If you have enough people believing that something is true, then it becomes so.

I've heard a story a couple of times that might be worth repeating.

It would seem that in old Hawaii the local priest of dukun or whatever they call them in Hawaii, would go down to the eastern shore before sunrise and make an offering to ensure that the sun would rise.
The proof of the effectiveness of his ministrations was that the sun rose.

If the people believed this, it was true for those people.

If we believe that we can influence anything by some action or other, and enough people believe that, then for these people, that becomes true. If the desired effect comes to pass, then it has proven that what was done to achieve that effect worked. If it does not come to pass, then the fault must lay with our performance of the ritual---or maybe God simply has a bigger plan, and could not permit it to happen.

Truth is a bit like history---get enough people believing something, and it becomes true.

Who would ever argue with the "truths" of any major religion?

Certainly not I.

[Lei Shen Dao]

What we believe and what we know are not always the same thing

David

You are absolutely wright about that.
I should write the word believe or heard and not the word know .

My English language skills aren't good enough. Sometimes this is a big problem conserning the meaning of what I would like to say or write...

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If we believe that we can influence anything by some action or other, and enough people believe that, then for these people, that becomes true. If the desired effect comes to pass, then it has proven that what was done to achieve that effect worked. If it does not come to pass, then the fault must lay with our performance of the ritual---or maybe God simply has a bigger plan, and could not permit it to happen.

Truth is a bit like history---get enough people believing something, and it becomes true.

Well Alan, i think you know me well enough by now to know (or maybe just believe ) that i have a pretty good understanding of this theory and have, in fact, seen it in action. Seperate realities is a common tool in my personal spiritual practice and i am not trying to throw stones at anyone elses glass houses. I am not quite convinced that it completely applies in this example though. If i believe a keris is powerful and can help me gain an end to a need or desire and that end does, indeed, come about i might then attribute the power to that keris and that may well be my "truth". I certainly wouldn't agrue this type of "truth" with anyone. Now i might believe that the essence of this power is held within the keris only because of it's meteorite content. Well, i know the end result came about and it would be awful difficult for anyone to prove that that keris wasn't in some way involved in that outcome. However, if i were, in the cause of science, to destroy that keris to try to find that meteorite content (something i would never dream of doing BTW ) and found no nickel content or even titanium what then? I may have believed that this keris had meteorite in it but it didn't. It was never "true" even though i thought it was. What would probably still be "true" for me in this hypothetical example is that this keris still has power. Afterall, my end result did come about. That would be an unchangable "fact". Of course, if this were an actual occurence, it would now be "my truth" that a keris does not need meteorite to be powerful.
In terms of history i see even less use for this theory. When enough people (usually the victors) believe that a moment or era in history occurred in a particular way (even if it didn't happen that way at all but it makes these victors look much better by their way of thinking) i would rather call that an "injustice" than a "truth". I may choose to be diplomatic to with these peoples rewriting of history or depending on the level of the injustice i might feel obliged to stand on the nearest hill top and shout "Liar!" at the top of my lungs. Remember, i am an American and have many years of experience living in a country that has a nasty habit of skewing it's history to reflect the glory of the Homeland.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well David, if you're going to force me to get down into the specifics of meteorites in keris, rather than wander all over the interesting and unstable ground of human perception, I will be as specific as I know how.

I know of only two keris that definitely have meteorite in them.
I know this because I forged the meteorite, and I was present when it was used.

I possess one tombak that according the Javanese parameters used to identify the maker, and the material , contains meteorite, according to those parameters.

I possess one keris that according to those same parameters also probably contains meteorite.

However, I have seen and handled many keris that according to respected Javanese authorities , applying the same parameters but only in respect of material, definitely contain meteorite.

These Javanese authorities know that my tombak, my keris, and the many others to which I refer above contain meteorite. They know it because they have absolute faith in their system and their knowledge.

On the other hand I am of little faith (and will undoubtedly go straight to hell) so I only know of two blades that contain meteorite:- the two I was involved in the manufacture of.

My truth is a little different from the truth of these other people.

My profession stands on a foundation of ensuring that certain things are in fact true.But after spending most of my life giving the thumbs up, or the thumbs down to various aspects of the truth, I have come to the rather non-committed position that anything is only as true as our knowledge and opinion, at any point in time, permits it to be.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My profession stands on a foundation of ensuring that certain things are in fact true.But after spending most of my life giving the thumbs up, or the thumbs down to various aspects of the truth, I have come to the rather non-committed position that anything is only as true as our knowledge and opinion, at any point in time, permits it to be.

You'll get no argument from me there.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Firstly, according to Keris and spirit, the discussion is focused on the use of meteorite. Is it a legend or not? Is there any impact to the power of keris? Does the "believe" of meteorite use give advantage or disadvantage for keris? I hope the conclusion is decided by each discussant since the aim of discussion is to share and to broaden our knowledge of keris. I do hope we can postpone for a while about "meteorite". There is still a neglected issue: TAYUH.

Secondly, if talking about spirit of Keris (Tosan Aji), we are familiar with the word "Nayuh/Tayuh/ (please translate into English, dear)". Does any kerislover have idea/experience/story about TAYUH/NAYUH/TAYUHAN? I do hope, from now, we can share and discuss about TAYUH/NAYUH/TAYUHAN.

Lets begin...

Usman

[David]

Usman, i appreciate your enthusiasm for discussion on the spiritual aspects of the keris. It is a topic that is indeed very close to my heart. I would suggest that if you want to have this discussion that you just begin yourself and see what follows. If you wait for others to begin you might have to wait for some time.
Tayuh as i understand it is a practice used in Kejawen to determine things through metaphysical means: past or future, find lost items, determine causes and cures for disease, etc. Please correct me if i am wrong.
The keris can and has been used as a tool to facilate this process. While i believe that tayuh can be discussed in a much larger extent not necessarily specific to keris, i would suggest that for the sake of topic and context that try to focus the discussion on tayuh only as it relates to the keris itself...but perhaps that is not possible.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

David,

yes, tayuh covers many aspects in javanese life. to narrowing the discussion, perhaps, it is better as you mention only as it relates to the keris itself.

usually, in Djogja, I saw people held keris and closed their eyes. Soon after that, they metioned about something related to the origin and the use of keris.

several times, I tested person who was believed having sixth sense. It did not matter whether I believed or not at that time about their abilities. My concern was to test the use of keris to person who did not learn lots about keris.

Then, I brought a keris, e.g period tuban, shape tilam upih, ornamen raja abala raja / top point of mountains. Amazing me, some people could explain the use of keris and "time-made" as Bambang Harsrinuksmo wrote in his ensiklopedia. Then, it raised a question why they could explain the use of keris... even they did not know the name of its pamor. there must be another way to understand keris. Is it NAYUH?

What did I still not believe them, whenever they metioned about the name of ghost lived inside, e.g. kiai tunggul wulung. It was only his imagination becuase, I hoped, if it's true, the name should be either Kiai Magelhaens or Nyai Wilhelmina. Just kidding my dear.

Usman

[Lei Shen Dao]

Considering the pamor related powers, I've heard form some people that a specific pamor doesn't allways indicate only one "power".
For example a was wutah keris is best known for his "good luck" quallities to the owner but it could be for "pengayoman" (protection and saccor) also.

There are some cases that I have encounter about keris that were made for more than one "purpose" for their owners (and I am not speaking for keris with two pamors etc, in this case), I know of an old maduranese blade (very strong and for fighting) made for a warrior with the purpose of "coming back safe from the battle" and it has pamor was wutah. This keris is not for general protection or for protecting the family of the warrior, but it was strictly for the warrior in battle. Maduranese people were mostly poor those days, so a was wutah pamor was ideal for someone to have a good luck in general. But the empu could "issue" another power in the blade not so obvious for other people than the owner himself.

Have you ever heard something similar?

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Yes, I heard similiar. Even, a talisman ever said that his keris could use for everything (it sounds generalist). However, imho, one tool uses effectively to solve one problem. But, if it can solve another problem,imho, it is a bonus. For instance, the main function of car is for transportation. A ferrari can function both for transportation and for prestige... or for other purposes.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

revision:

not a talisman but a person who "make" talisman. What is he called in English? (the native, please)

[HanaChu69]

Hi Usman & fellow keris collectors

I enjoyed reading all the stories and sharing session. I have my fair share of weird happenings but this recent incident has got me thinking if there’s any relation to one of my keris. Sometime early this year, my mom mentioned that she saw the back of an old man wearing all white “jubah” (gown) loitering around my hall corridor during midnight. She was on the verge of going to the ladies but changed her mind. I told her that it was nothing and was just fragment of her imagination.

A week later, I was on my way to work and surprisingly saw the old man earlier mentioned by my mom. I was shocked because he smelt so strongly of my keris oil which I bought from Adni (MAG). Is it a co-incidence or what? The best part was he was wearing black sunglasses. He was small built about 1.5m in height and has white hair wearing all white “jubah” (gown). He appeared a while and later on vanished among the crowd. The next day, I smelt my keris oil again lingering for a few minutes before it vanished through the thin air.

From that day onwards, I began to hide pictures of my two patrems from Kampungnet viewers. I’m not sure of the significance. Is he angry with me for sharing the pictures? I’m trying to communicate and asked for the reason through prayers definitely. Hmm…don’t get the wrong idea. I’m not asking for miracles or lottery numbers for I’m not a gambler but in creating a rapport. I believe that he lives in his world and I live in mine. I strongly believe that you must not be a slave to the spirit but mutual respect for each other if we were to co-exist in this world.

Truthfully,
HanaChu69

[Mans]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Hi Usman & fellow keris collectors
.................
I’m not asking for miracles or lottery numbers for I’m not a gambler but in creating a rapport. I believe that he lives in his world and I live in mine. I strongly believe that you must not be a slave to the spirit but mutual respect for each other if we were to co-exist in this world.

Truthfully,
HanaChu69

Hi Hana,
Good opinion to keep the faith, and must be keep at our mind and heart

[Newsteel]

Hi Hana,
Just like Mans advice, keep it good.

Lucky you the khadam (genie) want to show himself. Interesting if you got to know he is the quardian to which keris (of all the 3 patrems of yours). As usual, this khadam will not speak to us.