silver keris toli-toli ( comments pls) - Page 2

Battara · 30th May 2013, 02:02 AM

Great piece! So would you consider this an old toli-toli?

Also would this piece be considered nobility dress?

Jean · 30th May 2013, 10:10 AM

Hello Battara,
If you refer to my last piece, I would just consider the toli-toli as an used and standard model for everyday dress. The missing loop at the bottom uses the same materials as the top one and the binding string is more recent.
Regards

Gustav · 30th May 2013, 10:41 AM

A link to a thread with genuine old Passio Sumangge, and one of the most beautiful one, attached to a Keris of Sultan from Riau-Lingga:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=toli

Perhaps the earliest one with Passio Sumangge is the keris of August the Strong of Saxony, it's in Europe since 17. cent.

rasjid · 30th May 2013, 06:42 PM

Yes Alan, its written in Keris Bugis book.
As per Naga Sasra comment, attached sample my keris with passio sumange.
I think Andi irfan also written somewhere in this forum about passio sumange as well.

If you can see underneath there is a piece of paper which normally written something good for the owner or written prayer (As told to me by senior in bugis keris)
I just leave it as it is and stain the blade (personal preference)

Rasjid

David · 30th May 2013, 07:11 PM

Well, i guess we are not really getting any closer to the original intent of the passio sumange, though Andi has some interesting things to say here.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99317
I'm not sure that Jean's hanging suggestion make sense since many of what appear to be earlier examples or not the simple cord variety that his or Rasjid's keris show. Also, the loop is on the front face of the sheath so i cannot see how it would hang well from a belt with this loop.

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2013, 12:25 AM

Thanks Rasjid, but I'm not clear on whether you're telling me my recollection was correct, of Naga Sasra's recounting is correct.

My recollection could well be wrong, as noted, but I do know that what I wrote I have read somewhere.

One of the problems with anything like this, by that, I mean the interpretation of intent, is that the interpretation is only good for a specific window in time, most especially is that so with the keris. Thus it is that we have a philosophical or a mystical interpretation put upon a utilitarian object when the original need for utility has passed.

A really good example of what I mean here is the system of philosophy that has grown around the keris in Central Jawa over the last 200 years, or maybe less. The utilitarian purpose of the keris in Jawa passed long ago, but it became a cultural artifact and developed a different purpose for its continued existence.

Even though I recall reading the "tie down in presence of ruler" thing for the toli2, my personal opinion is that it developed from the need to ensure that the keris did not fall from its place on the body, I believe that originally it would have been used to secure the keris against loss.

Then the presence of ruler thing, and finally the philosophical interpretation --- and of course let us not forget social display, art and prestige.

The very simple fact of the entire human existence is that the passing of time alters the way in which things are perceived:- what is true today is not necessarily true for any time in the past.

Rick · 31st May 2013, 02:22 AM

My oh my !
I can't believe how many of these are now featured on a certain auction site since we have started discussing them ...

Cause and effect ?

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2013, 02:58 AM

Isn't it nice to be taken notice of?

Wonder if Lee could charge a commission for promotion?

rasjid · 31st May 2013, 03:57 AM

Hi Alan,

Just confirming your statement that its written in Keris Bugis book about "in the presence of a ruler". I believe pp.153

Rasjid

Gustav · 31st May 2013, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Even though I recall reading the "tie down in presence of ruler" thing for the toli2, my personal opinion is that it developed from the need to ensure that the keris did not fall from its place on the body, I believe that originally it would have been used to secure the keris against loss.

Then the presence of ruler thing, and finally the philosophical interpretation --- and of course let us not forget social display, art and prestige.

I also think, the original purpose of Toli2 is securing the keris, yet slightly another kind. The earliest examples of Toli2 are part of the Gowa-Makassar type Kerisses, and another part of full ensemble is the loop attached at the Keris hilt base. I suppose, this loop was intertwined with the upper loop of Toli2, and it very well could be done at court, as a kind of early securing of a weapon. Both loops mostly have the same workmanship.

Later the loop at the hilt basis disappeared and perhaps here the whole thing got another meaning.

Rick · 31st May 2013, 04:26 PM

A case of the form outlasting the function .

A. G. Maisey · 2nd June 2013, 02:38 PM

The sort of toli2 I've handled had what I can only describe as a figure eight loop, a small loop at the top, then a much larger loop that extended down the gandar, both in cord that had been wound with twine, and bound to the gandar at the waist of the figure eight. The whole thing was just a circle of bound cord that was held in at a waist and bound to the gandar. Pretty simple really, functional and no ornamentation.

If the setagen was run through the lower loop the scabbard would have been very firmly anchored to the body.

Gustav · 2nd June 2013, 03:20 PM

Here is a picture of the loop fixed at the keris hilt base I ment. At the moment I see no other explanation for it as to be in some way connected with Toli2. In this case it wouldn't allow the blade to be drawn out of the sheath.

Jean · 3rd June 2013, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If the setagen was run through the lower loop the scabbard would have been very firmly anchored to the body.

Hello Alan,
What do you mean by setagen?
Any input from our Bugis members regarding the practical use of the passio sumange? It is still unclear to me.

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 3rd June 2013, 03:33 PM

The sash that you wear around your waist. A sarung is just held at your waist by rolling it over, you kink it a bit on one end maybe, but it still comes loose and if there's not something holding it at your waist it continually comes loose.

It can be held by a heavy leather belt, which seems to be what blokes from Madura and some manual labourers in Jawa use---often has pockets in it to hold money or tobacco --- it can be held by a cloth belt --- sabuk--- or it can be held by a setagen, which is particularly so for formal wear.

If you wind a setagen right it acts a bit like a corset and supports your back, which is pretty handy for court wear where the abdi dalem spend hours sitting on the floor cross legged. Not easy.

The setagen is held in place by a sabuk, the cloth belt, for formal wear, and sometimes for non-formal wear.

Anyway, the setagen is wound around the waist and in Jawa the keris is slipped down between specific folds of the setagen at the back, when it becomes a wangkingan, but if one of the folds of the setagen was passed through the toli2 before the winding around the waist was complete, that single passing of the setagen through the toli2 would anchor the wrongko so it could not come free until you took the setagen off.

You could maybe do the same or similar with a belt, particularly a cloth belt.

Women wear a setagen too, and they often wear it wound very tight from the top of the hips to the bottom of the ribs, this helps them a lot to carry those incredible weights they can carry on their heads.

Years ago I saw a woman in Bali carry a board loaded with bricks that were stacked on it by two other women. That board was nearly 3 feet square and the bricks were piled maybe 6 or 8 high. I didn't count them, but my memory tells me there were a lot of them. She carried those bricks from a truck, across rough ground to a building job, maybe 200 yards. In rural Bali and Jawa its mostly women who do the heavy work, not men.

Our society could learn a lot from traditional Balinese society.

Sajen · 3rd June 2013, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Years ago I saw a woman in Bali carry a board loaded with bricks that were stacked on it by two other women. That board was nearly 3 feet square and the bricks were piled maybe 6 or 8 high. I didn't count them, but my memory tells me there were a lot of them. She carried those bricks from a truck, across rough ground to a building job, maybe 200 yards. In rural Bali and Jawa its mostly women who do the heavy work, not men.

Our society could learn a lot from traditional Balinese society.

Agree!

Jean · 3rd June 2013, 08:49 PM

Thank you Alan.

mykeris · 5th June 2013, 06:22 PM

Dear friends,
since we have mixed opinions on this matter , I have referred my earlier posting of this keris to a Malay keris Silver expert in Kelantan, Malaysia. After viewing a closer image of the silver work, he said:' filigree silver work seems to made in the very early 1900s. Tq.

David · 5th June 2013, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeris

Dear friends,
since we have mixed opinions on this matter , I have referred my earlier posting of this keris to a Malay keris Silver expert in Kelantan, Malaysia. After viewing a closer image of the silver work, he said:' filigree silver work seems to made in the very early 1900s. Tq.

Well, "experts" say the funniest things sometimes, don't they. I will continue to believe that the first keris sheath that started this thread is a rather contemporary piece. Your mileage may differ...

Battara · 6th June 2013, 12:52 AM

I will agree that as one who works with metals, filigree is much more difficult than the chasing work.

mykeris · 6th June 2013, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, "experts" say the funniest things sometimes, don't they. I will continue to believe that the first keris sheath that started this thread is a rather contemporary piece. Your mileage may differ...

"Sorry David, even the Foreign Expert Alan Maisey made a wrong judgement in one of those keris threads (hope you remember) "regarding .. whether the sheath really belongs to the blade" and one member of this forum Alam Shah stood by his opinion using 'LOGIC'...if you could remember.

I always agree with Alan, you cannot authenticate an item with 100 percent result without it seeing physically. I learned from his professional statement.TQ

Views differ..and Learning will never end !

Rick · 6th June 2013, 03:55 AM

Opinions; well, everyone has one .

A. G. Maisey · 6th June 2013, 06:02 AM

My Keris, firstly, I am not an expert.

Most especially I am not an expert on all types of keris from everywhere.

I do have a little bit of knowledge in respect of some very limited matters associated with Javanese, Madurese and Balinese keris.

I have spent a very long time in the study of the culture, society and history associated with the keris prior to its spread into areas of SE Asia other than its original cultural location.

But I am certainly no expert.

One thing I am not able to do is to give any guarantee at all in respect of any opinion I may give based upon what I can see in a photograph. I do recognise this inadequacy, and I freely admit that I do not have the psychic abilities of some other people which permits them to give solid opinions based upon photographs.

Regarding the wrong judgement which I made, and which you quote in your recent post, I would be very obliged if could refresh my memory by directing me to that thread. Thanks.

David · 6th June 2013, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeris

I always agree with Alan, you cannot authenticate an item with 100 percent result without it seeing physically. I learned from his professional statement.TQ

So your expert made his assessment based solely on a photograph and yet you accept that opinion 100%? Interesting.

Here is a link to the original auction BTW, with more photos. This link won't stay live for ever, but i don't have the energy to copy all the images to this forum for future reference.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Silv...-/230974832804

David · 6th June 2013, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeris

"Sorry David, even the Foreign Expert Alan Maisey made a wrong judgement in one of those keris threads (hope you remember) "regarding .. whether the sheath really belongs to the blade" and one member of this forum Alam Shah stood by his opinion using 'LOGIC'...if you could remember.

And frankly, no, i don't quite remember this so you would indeed need to refresh my memory, though i don't quite see how it is relevant to this thread or why you feel the need to refer to Alan as "the Foreign Expert".

30th May 2013, 06:42 PM	#34
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Bugis Sulawesi Yes Alan, its written in Keris Bugis book. As per Naga Sasra comment, attached sample my keris with passio sumange. I think Andi irfan also written somewhere in this forum about passio sumange as well. If you can see underneath there is a piece of paper which normally written something good for the owner or written prayer (As told to me by senior in bugis keris) I just leave it as it is and stain the blade (personal preference) Rasjid Attached Images

31st May 2013, 02:22 AM	#37
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Toli x 2 My oh my ! I can't believe how many of these are now featured on a certain auction site since we have started discussing them ... Cause and effect ?

2nd June 2013, 03:20 PM	#43
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Here is a picture of the loop fixed at the keris hilt base I ment. At the moment I see no other explanation for it as to be in some way connected with Toli2. In this case it wouldn't allow the blade to be drawn out of the sheath. Attached Images

30th May 2013, 02:02 AM	#31
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Great piece! So would you consider this an old toli-toli? Also would this piece be considered nobility dress?

30th May 2013, 10:10 AM	#32
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Battara, If you refer to my last piece, I would just consider the toli-toli as an used and standard model for everyday dress. The missing loop at the bottom uses the same materials as the top one and the binding string is more recent. Regards

30th May 2013, 10:41 AM	#33
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	A link to a thread with genuine old Passio Sumangge, and one of the most beautiful one, attached to a Keris of Sultan from Riau-Lingga: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=toli Perhaps the earliest one with Passio Sumangge is the keris of August the Strong of Saxony, it's in Europe since 17. cent.

30th May 2013, 07:11 PM	#35
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Well, i guess we are not really getting any closer to the original intent of the passio sumange, though Andi has some interesting things to say here. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99317 I'm not sure that Jean's hanging suggestion make sense since many of what appear to be earlier examples or not the simple cord variety that his or Rasjid's keris show. Also, the loop is on the front face of the sheath so i cannot see how it would hang well from a belt with this loop.

31st May 2013, 12:25 AM	#36
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Thanks Rasjid, but I'm not clear on whether you're telling me my recollection was correct, of Naga Sasra's recounting is correct. My recollection could well be wrong, as noted, but I do know that what I wrote I have read somewhere. One of the problems with anything like this, by that, I mean the interpretation of intent, is that the interpretation is only good for a specific window in time, most especially is that so with the keris. Thus it is that we have a philosophical or a mystical interpretation put upon a utilitarian object when the original need for utility has passed. A really good example of what I mean here is the system of philosophy that has grown around the keris in Central Jawa over the last 200 years, or maybe less. The utilitarian purpose of the keris in Jawa passed long ago, but it became a cultural artifact and developed a different purpose for its continued existence. Even though I recall reading the "tie down in presence of ruler" thing for the toli2, my personal opinion is that it developed from the need to ensure that the keris did not fall from its place on the body, I believe that originally it would have been used to secure the keris against loss. Then the presence of ruler thing, and finally the philosophical interpretation --- and of course let us not forget social display, art and prestige. The very simple fact of the entire human existence is that the passing of time alters the way in which things are perceived:- what is true today is not necessarily true for any time in the past.

31st May 2013, 02:58 AM	#38
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Isn't it nice to be taken notice of? Wonder if Lee could charge a commission for promotion?

31st May 2013, 03:57 AM	#39
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Hi Alan, Just confirming your statement that its written in Keris Bugis book about "in the presence of a ruler". I believe pp.153 Rasjid

31st May 2013, 04:26 PM	#41
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	A case of the form outlasting the function .

2nd June 2013, 02:38 PM	#42
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	The sort of toli2 I've handled had what I can only describe as a figure eight loop, a small loop at the top, then a much larger loop that extended down the gandar, both in cord that had been wound with twine, and bound to the gandar at the waist of the figure eight. The whole thing was just a circle of bound cord that was held in at a waist and bound to the gandar. Pretty simple really, functional and no ornamentation. If the setagen was run through the lower loop the scabbard would have been very firmly anchored to the body.

3rd June 2013, 03:33 PM	#45
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	The sash that you wear around your waist. A sarung is just held at your waist by rolling it over, you kink it a bit on one end maybe, but it still comes loose and if there's not something holding it at your waist it continually comes loose. It can be held by a heavy leather belt, which seems to be what blokes from Madura and some manual labourers in Jawa use---often has pockets in it to hold money or tobacco --- it can be held by a cloth belt --- sabuk--- or it can be held by a setagen, which is particularly so for formal wear. If you wind a setagen right it acts a bit like a corset and supports your back, which is pretty handy for court wear where the abdi dalem spend hours sitting on the floor cross legged. Not easy. The setagen is held in place by a sabuk, the cloth belt, for formal wear, and sometimes for non-formal wear. Anyway, the setagen is wound around the waist and in Jawa the keris is slipped down between specific folds of the setagen at the back, when it becomes a wangkingan, but if one of the folds of the setagen was passed through the toli2 before the winding around the waist was complete, that single passing of the setagen through the toli2 would anchor the wrongko so it could not come free until you took the setagen off. You could maybe do the same or similar with a belt, particularly a cloth belt. Women wear a setagen too, and they often wear it wound very tight from the top of the hips to the bottom of the ribs, this helps them a lot to carry those incredible weights they can carry on their heads. Years ago I saw a woman in Bali carry a board loaded with bricks that were stacked on it by two other women. That board was nearly 3 feet square and the bricks were piled maybe 6 or 8 high. I didn't count them, but my memory tells me there were a lot of them. She carried those bricks from a truck, across rough ground to a building job, maybe 200 yards. In rural Bali and Jawa its mostly women who do the heavy work, not men. Our society could learn a lot from traditional Balinese society.

3rd June 2013, 08:49 PM	#47
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan.

5th June 2013, 06:22 PM	#48
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Dear friends, since we have mixed opinions on this matter , I have referred my earlier posting of this keris to a Malay keris Silver expert in Kelantan, Malaysia. After viewing a closer image of the silver work, he said:' filigree silver work seems to made in the very early 1900s. Tq.

6th June 2013, 12:52 AM	#50
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I will agree that as one who works with metals, filigree is much more difficult than the chasing work.

6th June 2013, 03:55 AM	#52
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Opinions; well, everyone has one .

6th June 2013, 06:02 AM	#53
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	My Keris, firstly, I am not an expert. Most especially I am not an expert on all types of keris from everywhere. I do have a little bit of knowledge in respect of some very limited matters associated with Javanese, Madurese and Balinese keris. I have spent a very long time in the study of the culture, society and history associated with the keris prior to its spread into areas of SE Asia other than its original cultural location. But I am certainly no expert. One thing I am not able to do is to give any guarantee at all in respect of any opinion I may give based upon what I can see in a photograph. I do recognise this inadequacy, and I freely admit that I do not have the psychic abilities of some other people which permits them to give solid opinions based upon photographs. Regarding the wrong judgement which I made, and which you quote in your recent post, I would be very obliged if could refresh my memory by directing me to that thread. Thanks.