Period Photos of People with Ethnographic Arms

[TVV]

Originally Posted by gp

some called them brigands, others freedom fighters: they called themselves komitadzis

Considering they have their native Bulgarian language on their flag, is it so hard to call them what they are?

[fernando]

Brazilian cangaceiros with their 1908 Mauser rifle and the famous deadly (bleeding) punhais (1920-30).


.

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

Considering they have their native Bulgarian language on their flag, is it so hard to call them what they are?

it always was and still is a sensitive topic in the region, to put it diplomaticly.
As one recently noticed in the official name ( The Republic of North Macedonia (Macedonian: Северна Македонија, Severna Makedonija; formerly the Republic of Macedonia, also FYROM and FYR Macedonia) based upon Greek resistance or better sensitivities...
also during the last days of the Ottoman Empire, Balkan Wars of 1912/13 and "differences"of opinion between these Kzomitadzis and Bulgaria...
Not easy as they used the same cyrillic script and Makedonia as the Makenonians claim is now also still part of Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia and the former Yugoslav republic called Makedonia.

Refraining from (geo)politics, just going back to the picture:

it originates from The Sydney Mail 1903 - The Rebellion in Macedonia.

In August 1903 the Macedonians rose against Ottoman rule. The Turks brutally suppressed the uprising, after which there were countless attacks on the population.
By regular Ottoman troops, but also by irregular formations consisting of Albanians in the service of the Ottomans.

The Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser reported on Wednesday, September 23, 1903, about "terrible excesses by Turkish troops, particularly the Albanians, in the vilayets of Bitola and Adrianople".

The Ottomans named an administrative district as a vilayet, which they in turn introduced as an occupier.


Austria and Russia have protested to Turkey against the horrible' excesses of Turkish troops, especially of Albanians, in the vilayets of Monastir and Adrianople. Some Albanians have been recalled, and sent to their homes.
A general insurrection has been proclaimed in that portion of the vilayet of Salonika eastwards of the River Vardajr.

The district has been subdivided into eight sections, a Bulgarian officer commanding each. Colonel Zontcheff is Commander-in-Chief of this body of insurgents.

Owing to the scarcity of officers the Sultan has promoted all sergeant-majors to be lieuteuants.

Diplomatists agree that indiscriminate condemnation of Turkey is unjustifiable. Both sides are guilty of atrocities.

The ' Standard ' says that a few British and French ships are keeping in touch with Salonika in the event of the Powers acting in concert.

Russia and Austria have returned unfavourable replies to the Bulgarian Note asking for the interference of the Powers.

The regicides completely rule King Peter of Servia, whose chief Minister threatens to reveal an incriminating letter whenever the King is refractory.

[TVV]

The rebellion was not just in Macedonia, but also in Eastern Thrace. Hence the atrocities in Bitola and Adrianople. If you look at a map and see what is between Bitola and Adrianople, the ethnicity of the insurgents should not be too hard to figure out. I still do not understand why it is so hard to call things with their real names.

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

The rebellion was not just in Macedonia, but also in Eastern Thrace. Hence the atrocities in Bitola and Adrianople. If you look at a map and see what is between Bitola and Adrianople, the ethnicity of the insurgents should not be too hard to figure out. I still do not understand why it is so hard to call things with their real names.

Just wanted to post some pics of Makedonian Komitadzis with focus on their cold weapons and avoid a discussion about the sensitivity around it.

If you feel offended about 1 out of the 4 pics and my interpretation of a newspaper comment of 130 years ago mentioning the men as Makedonian Komitadzis, my sincere apologies as it was not my intention to upset your Bulgarian feelings…
Perhaps next a Greek person can object to the Saloniki picture as this is presently in Greece….
Should we really go down that road?

The comment on the newspaper originates from an Australian historical review, so not bias by any connection to the region.

I have got an inlaw who might differ from your opinion concerning the men on the picture as he is Makedonian, but I sincerly do want to refrain from going there…. as I personally witnessed in Sarajevo 1988- 1992 what “ calling things by there real name “ can result to…
Obviously neither disrespect nor offence intended and without accusing you of going down that road..
Let’s agree to focus & discuss the arms and not politics please. Thank you very much.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by gp

Just wanted to post some pics of Makedonian Komitadzis with focus on their cold weapons and avoid a discussion about the sensitivity around it.

If you feel offended about 1 out of the 4 pics and my interpretation of a newspaper comment of 130 years ago mentioning the men as Makedonian Komitadzis, my sincere apologies as it was not my intention to upset your Bulgarian feelings…
Perhaps next a Greek person can object to the Saloniki picture as this is presently in Greece….
Should we really go down that road?

The comment on the newspaper originates from an Australian historical review, so not bias by any connection to the region.

I have got an inlaw who might differ from your opinion concerning the men on the picture as he is Makedonian, but I sincerly do want to refrain from going there…. as I personally witnessed in Sarajevo 1988- 1992 what “ calling things by there real name “ can result to…
Obviously neither disrespect nor offence intended and without accusing you of going down that road..
Let’s agree to focus & discuss the arms and not politics please. Thank you very much.

What we collect here are not replicas, but historic weapons. The study of these weapons is meaningless when they are removed from their historic context, and that context most certainly includes the people who used the arms, and their motivation to take up arms in the first place.

The pictures you posted from the Ilinden Uprising are those of ВМОРО chetniks. The abbreviations stands for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, which translates into Internal Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization. It was established by Bulgarians, its followers were overwhelmingly Bulgarian and after the failure of the uprising, they continued to support Bulgarian goals and interests, including the Bulgarian army through the Balkan Wars and WWI. These are historical facts, which contribute to the knowledge and study of the weapons on the pictures.

If we strive to attribute swords and daggers to particular tribes in Africa and South-East Asia, there should not be any sensitivity in pointing out the correct ethnicity of armed people in the Balkans either.

[gp]

Originally Posted by TVV

What we collect here are not replicas, but historic weapons. The study of these weapons is meaningless when they are removed from their historic context, and that context most certainly includes the people who used the arms, and their motivation to take up arms in the first place.

The pictures you posted from the Ilinden Uprising are those of ВМОРО chetniks. The abbreviations stands for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, which translates into Internal Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Organization. It was established by Bulgarians, its followers were overwhelmingly Bulgarian and after the failure of the uprising, they continued to support Bulgarian goals and interests, including the Bulgarian army through the Balkan Wars and WWI. These are historical facts, which contribute to the knowledge and study of the weapons on the pictures.

If we strive to attribute swords and daggers to particular tribes in Africa and South-East Asia, there should not be any sensitivity in pointing out the correct ethnicity of armed people in the Balkans either.

Thank you for your reply but this is what I wanted to avoid: the Bulgarian “claim” on everything relating to Macedonia or justification of the many “interpretations” between two “brothers” or if you like “cousins” in the region.

Being Bulgarian does not mean you are right, neither do I claim it to be: I am just a simply “cloggy” , i.e. Dutch with a connection to several Balkan countries ( Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Kosovo and Albania)
Nor do I want to start a polemic like Edith Durham and R. W. Seton-Watson had on Serbia and Albania.

Hence my request to the mods to delete the 3rd picture which is the source of TVV’s “firm” reaction.

Question to TVV: what type of weapons did they ( Bulgarians and Makedonians on the pictures) use and what is the difference between the weapons : if there's one ?

[TVV]

For that particular period of time, especially when it comes to the fighters in question, you can use the term Macedonians and Bulgarians interchangeably, since we are talking about the same people. While the weapon of choice was probably a Mannlicher carbine, the panoply included almost every imaginable system available in Europe at the time that they could get their hands on, though standard military patterns are outside the scope of this forum. When it comes to edged weapons, the kamas and yataghans that were used are virtually indistinguishable from those used throughout the Balkans, especially the Eastern Balkans in these times and the preceding century.

[gp]

and now for something completely different....


drawings of the Pandurs between 1742 -1760 ; in service of the Habsburg Empire in Hungary / Croatia ...the borderland and mostly know as Baron Franz von der Trenck's pandurs. not to be mistaken with his cousin Friedrich Freiherr von der Trenck. Although both lead a colorful life .

[gp]

some close up details; Pandurs and zhusars in battle

[mahratt]

Khassadars with choora daggers, Waziristan, 1920

[dat_man]

Bedouins with spears/ lances

[kronckew]

Camel corps of King abdul-Aziz, Head of the Saudis.


In 1902, the Saudi bedouins recapture the Masmak Fort in Riyadh, and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia was reborn after 3 years of further battles. They surprised the enemy garrison. As they charged the rapidly closing gate, a camel lancer hurled his spear at the gate, the blade stuck in the door, and snapped off. It is still there. They stormed the fort and captured it.



The Camel warriors, the gate, and the fort:

[gp]

some pics from albania between 1885-1910

[Teisani]

Wallachian haiduc (outlaw basically), Iancu Jianu 1788-1843.

[gp]

pictures of several gaucho's from Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina with their facón / knives ( between 25-50cm / approx. 10 - 20 in.)

[Rick]

Middle picture:
Looks like an old Iver Johnson top break revolver w/pearl grips on his belt.
Beautiful kit.

The three in the picture below him all look like they are carrying swords,.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Rick

Middle picture:

The three in the picture below him all look like they are carrying swords,.

it actually is a caronero; a long knife used by the gauchos.
But it looks that indeed other weapons like swords might have been borrowed...

[gp]

article called "PROMENADE A TRAVERS LA PAMPA GAUCHO" a walk through the gaucho's pampa from 1881

and how it looked like

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JDDX_z7tT10

and a little info on these long ones:

http://esgrimacriolla.blogspot.com/2...-caronero.html

[Ian]

gp,

I'm not sure those blades are very true to reality. They look more like folding knives, such as navaja, than facón or cuchillo. This could just as well be a Mediterranean scene, despite the legend to the drawing. Popular travelogues from the nineteenth century generally took a lot of license with what they presented, and often times the stories were written by people who had not ventured very far from Europe.

[fernando]

Amen.

[David R]

I am also very sceptical of the "ice-pick" grip of the blades, which is rare in real life and specialised for a power strike or finishing move. As I understand it Gaucho fought for prestige and to settle disputes usually with a poncho or blanket wrapped round the left arm as a protection.

[Turkoman.khan]

DUPRÉ, Louis (1789-1837). Voyage à Athènes et à Constantinople, ou Collection de portraits, de vues et de costumes grecs et ottomans, peints sur les lieux. Paris: Dondey-Dupré, 1825

Ralioundji. Military sailor attached to the Ottoman Admiralty

[fernando]

Excelent image .

[kronckew]

Kalioundji: He looks rather small in proportion to his weapons.

[fernando]

Whatever .

[cyten]

Sharpening Kindjals in Ganja, Azerbaijan

[gp]

Man from Fèlibè / Plodiv around 1873
Man from Montenegro around 1900 / 1910
Man from Skafia Crete 1880/1900

[gp]

2 pics from the Georgian tribe of Hevrusians

[Rick]

Those must be drinking horns; I was a bit puzzled about their use initially.