Basket hilted swords

[Will M]

I agree this sword has irregularities compared to originals. The pommel looks new, the grip wire has been flattened something not seen on originals.
The slotted hilt looks cut from flat stock, rounded where cut but flat sided.
Copies of swords have been made for centuries from the Victorian era to fill castles and onwards.
There are some fine copies being made in Europe and with a bit of aging appear quite authentic if you don't know what to look for and this has become less obvious.

[Battara]

Oh I agree. This looks either to be a new replica or a newly minted piece. English style not Scottish.

[Will M]

By looking at pommels in this post it occurred to me that the pommel of my sword may show it's earlier than 1780's? The marking A57 on both guard and scabbard mouth would be A troop # 57. Should be more of these swords out there?

[Jim McDougall]

This is an interesting variant of the British 'four slot guard' which began around 1750s in the Birmingham horseman/dragoon swords it seems, The clipped tip blades on these were as previously discussed several years ago, a German favored blade feature.

The added guard bars to the hilt do not suggest earlier in my view, and it seems that the 1780s + date previously considered seems more likely.
The WYATT name stamped in the blade seems unusually configured and it does not seem to occur on other blades of this period. It does seem likely a cutlers mark and these of course may have been in a number of trades in business but assembled swords.

In past discussions it seems there was a Joseph Wyatt in England, but no record of his assembling swords.....and a Joseph Wyatt in Philadelphia, a silversmith I believe, working c. 1791-98. I think it is often difficult to consider that although post Revolution, people were still essentially British colonists, and goods from England were still supplied. As we know even into the Federal period swords were traded from England.

Components for swords were used by assemblers in a variety of combinations, and as pommels were often sundry items bought or traded in lots or from other sources, interchanged with other components.
This makes it difficult to estimate the date of a sword which is such an assembled sword, and this pommel is indeed atypical to the taller 'olive' types usually seen on these.

I agree with an earlier comment that unit or regimental numbers on hilts typically suggest British weapon. With the braided wire this sword seems to be intended for an officer, and officers swords were personal property, not issued..so a unit marked hilt seems unusual in this context.

So possibly earlier Solingen blade, British hilt, rewrapped grips, different pommel, assembled in America......Wyatt????
Forensically that would be my speculation at this point, if these components are indeed antique.
Always more research to go.


As for Victorian period reproductions for parlors and smoking rooms in baronial displays...….these regulation type swords and weapons were not among the favored selections.

[Will M]

Thank-you Jim for your insight. When I first acquired the sword I thought having a name on the blade would make it easy to research, not the case.
I'm told similar examples are in the Royal Armouries but I have no way to see these short of flying over the ocean.
If it's true the sword was used in the American Revolution I'd love to be able to place it there.
Finding a similar example has become quite challenging and without success.
I'll keep plugging away at it as I'm sure the end result will be rewarding.

[Bakerbarang]

I'm new to the forum and am an experienced collector of British Ordnance Flintlock weapons. My experience of swords is, however, very limited and I am seeking to learn from the obvious experience represented in this thread.
A few weeks ago I stumbled on an add on Craigslist - a person was selling three swords. Two of them were tourist trinkets (not actually swords), one appeared to be a British Victorian sword with the grip broken off but the third was a basket hilt. The Craigslist photo was terrible with the swords being almost silhouettes, but the outline of the basket hilt made me suspicious that it wasn’t junk. So, I met the person in a dark and gloomy house but even in the darkness I could see enough to know it was a real sword. I purchased it and took it out to the car in a garbage bag where I could have a real look in the daylight – I was not disappointed. It is a nice sword but I’m still not quite sure what I have. I was initially thinking a 17th century blade with a late 18th century hilt. The hilt, at first, looked like a later style but the presence of small curved quillons and short langets tends to point to something earlier. Am I right here? The more I looked at it (the overall condition and pommel riveting) it looked original and un-messed with. A gentle clean of the blade revealed markings which look old. So, do I have a 17th century Scottish sword? Internet searches reveal very little to guide me and the only text reference I can find to anything similar in form are on page 61 and 62 of Mazansky’s British Basket-Hilted Swords. But all of this represents my guesswork. I'm hoping some of you can guide me since the sword learning curve is extremely steep and Im having trouble putting this sword in some sort of age and ethnic context.

Any ideas/advice would be appreciated?

Anyway, I’m thrilled to have found this sword in a pile of unrecognized junk on Craigslist!

Thanks for your time.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum Baker ...
I am not the indicated person to enlighten you on your sword but, being a fan of marks, let me ask you if you have tried to decipher what that mark on the blade is about ?

[Battara]

Nice catch! I too got a great catch from Craigs list long ago.

Anyway, though your piece is truly old, it is an English and not Scottish basket hilt. The symbols? - I'll leave that to others.

[Jim McDougall]

It is hard to say with certainty with basket hilts whether English or Scottish as these denominators were pretty transcendent in these times and regions, but most characteristics suggest it is made by Scottish artisans. It is most certainly, as typical, a Solingen blade. The cross and orb coupled with the 'anchor' is atypical but commonly placed as here at the fuller terminus as far as I have seen on most blades of this time period.
This does seem a 17th century blade, and the hilt latter 17th-early 18th. The arms of the saltires entering the pommel is characteristic of Scottish hilt making, and makers in the garrison centers often produced for Highland units in the British army, but there are features which suggest profound Scottish symbolism such as the heart and especially the scallop shell....which if I recall had Jacobite associations. This was a relatively rarely seen symbol for the Spanish allies to the Jacobite cause.

Without going into notes and research, my inclination is toward a very Scottish basket hilt of at early 18th c. and most probably from border or lowland regions during the risings. It must be remembered that the distinctions between opposing sides were not truly delineated between Highland and Lowland; Scottish or English nor Jacobite against Government..so such classification is at this stage improbable.

This is a FANTASTIC piece!!! and Bakerbarang, I cannot thank you enough for sharing it here...….and I envy your fortitude in taking a chance on what is truly an amazing find! Congratulations! This is a truly valuable find.

I am hoping that the 'real' experts here like Cathey and Eljay might come in with their views, but in the meantime I add what I can based on what I can recall of previous researches.


PS. Personally I would avoid restoration beyond stabilizing any active corrosion, I have a ribbon hilt intact like this but the grip gone, and of the same period c.1690s, or earlier. I like its static condition as it to me represents history incarnate, and is rustically beautiful.

[Cathey]

Hi Bakerbarang

I can honestly say I have not seen one of these before. You are correct in that it does closely resemble the one featured on Page 62 of MAZANSKY Cyril British Basket-hilted Swords. I have not seen this pear shaped pommel with a hilt featuring this degree of decoration before on a sword of this age. Would you mind posting more pictures, particularly the entire sword and blade and some dimensions, ie, blade width length etc. I will go back though my data base and see what I can find. Also have you tried to flex the blade or is it stiff.

Cheers Cathey

[E.B. Erickson]

This nice sword got posted on MyArmoury a couple of days ago. My initial response is below.

You found that on Craigslist!!?? If I wasn't in Thailand I'd pay more attention to CL ads! Nice sword!

At any rate, my initial thought is English, very late 1500s/early 1600s (assuming that someone hasn't done an absolutely great job of forgery on the basket). There are a number of English characteristics on the hilt that are similar to other hilts of the period, like the quillons, which are actually fairly long, but bent back upon themselves.

The main item that would make me think Scottish is the pommel; it has rectangular slots to receive the ends of the hilt, which, as far as I know, may be an indicator of Scots manufacture. The little "langets" at the blade shoulder is also something that hints at Scotland.

Interestingly, look at the crude, undecorated, though nicely shaped, pommel and the rather nice workmanship on the basket. And yet everything appears to have a similar amount of pitting, and the pommel shape is certainly consistent with the early 1600s.

So I guess my vote is English, as per paragraph 2 above. That is not a dogmatic statement, though: feel free to sway me to Scotland with evidence!

By the way, how long is the blade?

--ElJay

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Eljay! I would not have imagined this hilt being that early!
I agree though, there are very English factors but the pommel attachment method rings Scottish. Also, the scallop shell ornament, any thoughts?
Very Spanish.....not something often seen in English use as far as I have known.
Cathey looking forward to your results!! Your data base is phenomenal !!!

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Nothing in my data base so this one has me a bit puzzled. It appears to combine elements from at least three early swords featured in Mazansky. No20A Certainly a very similar basket, VII Pear-Shaped Pommel page 23, A15d again same pommel, but very different basket as is the case with A17.

I agree with Eljay this is an early sword but the degree of sophistication of the hilt as apposed to No 20A has thrown me. I am going to try and get contact details for Cryril Mazansky and see if he has access to better pictures of Sword No20A, particularly the underside of the guard. Its times like this that I really miss the Baron of Earlshall.

With regard to British or Scottish refer to post #263, whilst it has features generally attributed to both the seating on the blade has me leaning towards Scottish at this stage.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

The Baron has come to our aid after all. It appears this basket hilt dates between 1575-1600 and is referred to by the Baron of Earlshall in his book "The Scottish Basket Hilted Sword Volume 1 c1450 to 1600" as a Slitted Guard basket hilt. The pages to refer to if you have the book are 187-270.

It is described here as Scottish due to the blade slot begin larger than the tang.

Great find as I have never seen one of these in the flesh before, please share more pictures and details such as blade length and width etc.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Bakerbarang]

Humble apologies, everyone, I have been off line for a bit. Work responsibilities has a way of interrupting a perfectly good hobby sometimes!
Thanks to you all for jumping in and offering your knowledge and being so helpful. My knowledge base was just enough to know I had something I needed to take seriously.

However unofficial, I really like the name Slitted Guard Basket Hilt - just nice to have some sort of name to put to this sword.

To answer some questions raised…
I totally agree with leaving this thing alone. I have no intention of “cleaning” it more than in the photos. The active rust is removed it is lightly oiled ant there I’ll stop. Before a police career in forensicscience I was trained as a conservator and worked in a national museum so I have a complete aversion to over cleaning historic objects rather than preserving them. So no worries this sword won’t be messed with.

Re measurements… Over all length 41.25”(1047mm), Blade length 35.1” (894mm), Blade width 1 9/16 (40mm). It is hard to describe how flexible the blade is. I would not describe it as stiff. It has about the same flex as several my mortuary swords but the blade is wider and thus somewhat heaver. (I don't actually collect 17th century swords but have ended up with some mortuary swords which I love and understand better.)

I have added some photos of the blade markings. One photo of the blade as found the rest after a light clean and oiling which, ironically creates reflection that makes them harder to photograph. The markings in the central fuller are the same on both sides of the blade. They appear to be an alternating series of letters I expect more decoration than having any meaning.
X X X o X C X o X C X o X X X
Forgive the poor quality of photos I only have my cell phone handy right now and the lighting is challenging. If there are any indications of blade age or maker from such marks I would be very keen to hear opinions.

Thanks for the references and page numbers particularly to "The Scottish Basket Hilted Sword Volume 1 c1450 to 1600" pages 187-270. I don’t have this reference but will try an interlibrary loan next week and see if I can track one down.

I will attempt to get some more phots up in a few days just for interest and will post one of the original terrible Craigslist photos just for fun so you can see what I first saw that got me in the car driving.

Thanks everyone. I so am enjoying this rather steep learning curve.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for adding more detail and specifications on this phenomenal example! I cannot emphasize enough how important this find is, and I am so grateful that you have shared it here.
As Cathey has noted, the book by the Baron of Earlshall is a powerfully important reference which has brought forward the knowledge and key details on these weapons.

The running wolf on the blade is actually believed to be a kind of talismanic device placed on blades made in Solingen, and became a recognized symbol associated with quality. The 'anchor' (cross with multiple arms) is also a device often used on Spanish blades and adopted in German blade motif.

The curious X's and letters are German applications often imitating the indecipherable groupings of such letters found on many blades. These are typically magic/talismanic acrostics or letters with sometimes numeric values. Often these were patriotic slogans or religious invocations which were 'coded' in this manner. The 'X' represents a cross, and in the position of the letter X may have been perceived as St. Andrews cross in Scotland, and as such among favored symbolism just as the famed 'ANDREA FERARA' markings.

[Victrix]

I have a sword (presumably 18thC Solingen made blade) with a motto stamped in the single fuller on each side of the blade. Between each letter in the motto is an ”o” separating them. So I think the o in Bakerbarang’s sequence of letters may be meant as separators.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

I have a sword (presumably 18thC Solingen made blade) with a motto stamped in the single fuller on each side of the blade. Between each letter in the motto is an ”o” separating them. So I think the o in Bakerbarang’s sequence of letters may be meant as separators.

Indeed I think you are right. These repeated 'letters' (usually X's) are intended as separators in a punctuated manner between these often complex acrostics.
The 'anchor' was used as a terminating element as well at the end of such phrases, names etc. in fullers originally with Spanish blades.

On earlier Frankish blades, such as in the 'Ulfberhrt' period, the cross was often placed as enclosure to this and other names in this same convention.

[Bakerbarang]

Just for fun…
Just so you can see what I saw on Craig’s list. The photo shows two of the swords. (the other one in the photo was a William IV pipe back with broken grip and the blade “sharpened” by some artist with a grinder!!) Not knowing much about basket hilts, what actually influenced me more was the outline of the blade. It just looked like an old blade with the rounded point - so I figured I’d gamble and go for a drive to see it. The house was dark but what I could see, I liked. I bought it and walked out to the car and took it out of it’s garbage bag for a proper look in the daylight. At that point I realized I may have landed on a really nice sword. I took some photos in the car and emailed them to a friend immediately asking what he thought. He indicated it was old and likely 18th century with what could be a 17th century blade. I was thrilled!
The photos from the car show the condition as found. All told, very well preserved. Not part of a collection, not understood, but fortunately not “sharpened” by the guy with the grinder! I’m amazed that this thing, while lightly rusted and missing the grip, does not appear to have been “improved” by anyone over the years. All the more amazing given that it appears to be a late 16th century weapon – that is a lot of years to have escaped being made into a fire place poker. I’m thrilled it is now found, preserved and, thanks to you all, being appreciated. I, like all of you is suspect, have stories about "the one that got away" I'm so glad I was actually able to catch this one.

[Bakerbarang]

Cathey, you had asked for an overall photo to go with the measurements. - sorry I for got about that. Here is a photo.

[Jim McDougall]

Baker, THANK YOU so much for this story!!!
This one did not get away thanks to you and we can all learn from it!!
It truly is magnificent, and I can just hear the stories it wants to tell.

[M ELEY]

A Scottish basket hilt broadsword with 'S' bars incorporated in the hilt. The rounded thin bars indicative of the Stirling smiths. Leather grip with a single thin wire wrap. 31" blade marked with four Wundes king's heads each side of blade, possibly attributed to Peter Wundes the Elder (1580-1630) or Peter the Younger (1630-1685).

Based on the pommel style and primitive heart punches, it appears to date to the first quarter of the 18th c.

[E.B. Erickson]

This type of blade with the king's heads and the shallow fullers either side of the centerline are usually engraved "Andria Ferara" between the king's head stamps. Are there any traces of this on your sword?

--ElJay

[M ELEY]

Hello Eljay and thanks for responding. The sword is not in hand yet, but when it does arrive, I will search closely for the Ferara marking. From the pic, there might also be a faded orb (?) to the right of one of the heads, but my weary eyes might be playing tricks...
Mark

[BlackcapBob]

Good Evening, This is my first post and first basket hilted sword which I recent bought, any comments or advice will be gratefully received.

The sword from my limited research I believe dates from around 1600 ?? and is English, with a Solingen blade made by Clemens Deinger which is stamped to both sides of the blade, it appears to have brass or similar decoration remaining in the stamp marks of some letters or symbols, it also has a stamp on the ricasso of a bird in a shield shaped armourers mark, the blade is 36” or 91.5 cm long and 1 1/16” or 2.7 cm at its widest point and of a backsword style, it is still sharp, there are no fullers.

The pommel is a solid spherical shape, there are no decorations on the two shields of the hilt and no apparent makers mark, the grip has its wires intact and in good condition with 3 separate types of wire thickness, there are Turks heads knots top and bottom. There is only one screw holding the hilt to the pommel.

I have noticed that one of Cathey’s many swords post 162 has a blade by Clemens Dinger which also appears to have a number of similarities in the shape of the hilt as mine, the blade is very different being a broadsword with several fullers.

I have a copy of 1000 Marks of European Blademakers and the similarities between the spelling of Clemens Deinger on my blade and Clemens Dinger on Cathey’s blade are striking with the N’s being reversed and both having a bird as there symbol in a shield stamp on the ricasso, is it possible that my blade with Deinger which appears a simpler design is slightly earlier than Cathey’s when for some reason they had dropped the E and developed a finer Swan shaped stamp also seen on the ricasso in addition to the bird shield stamp. Obviously over time trademarks change and newer sharper images could be stamped in addition.

According to Lenkiewicz, Clemens Dinger traded in Solingen between 1590 and 1617 during which period it appears to me that Deinger dropped the E and became Dinger and the swan stamp was developed later ??.

I have tried to obtain a copy of Solinger Schwertschiede des 16 und 17 Jahrhunderts und Ihre Erzeugnisse by Weyersberg from Ken Trotman but he has sold out and will not be reprinting any more so I am unaware of what if anything Weyersberg knows about Clemens Deinger or Dinger of this period, any assistance would be appreciated, Cheers Bob.

[fernando]

Welcome to our forum Bob .
Great sword you show us. Let us see what the members have to say about it.

[BlackcapBob]

Hi Fernando, Thank you for allowing me to join the forum and make a post, this place is full of interesting swords and much much more, time for me to browse some more.
See you around, Cheers Bob.

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Bob, and welcome to the forum.
Your basket hilt indeed has resemblances in the hilt form to a number of examples. It must be remembered that these kinds of nuances are pretty much the closest to any sort of specific identification with these swords, as there were not regulated patterns but simply favored designs.

This seems to be a hilt for British dragoon use about mid 18th century but possibly earlier. The spherical pommel seems an earlier affectation and the screw attachment of quillons was characteristically English. However, as military swords were being made in garrison towns in Scotland for Scottish forces in British service, it is hard to distinguish.

As always, swords were basically assembled in these locations using mostly German blades, and the hilts produced by various makers and shops,.
In "British Basket Hilted Swords" (Mazansky) there are examples (p.141, and p.81 (D10) in which the hilt plates have similar 'notching' and were noted c. 1750s.

In the case of the blade , I found good reference to the markings in "European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks: by Staffan Kinman, 2015.
This is one of the most comprehensive and detailed books on markings in recent years and well augments the Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962) with newer evidence and details.
On p.104:
A sword with standing swan in cartouche and inscription CLEMENS DEINGER was carried by King Gustaf II Adolf at Dirschau in 1627 during the Polish campaign.
It is noted that a reference was made in 1640, to a 'decrepit swordsmith Clemens Dinger', which of course suggests he was at end of his days by then. Perhaps the 'N' was inadvertently reversed )?).There appears to be a son carrying on in Solingen after with variations of the swan etc.

In my thinking, the roughly applied name with appropriate crosses and the swan mark may suggest the Clemens Deinger the older, and place the blade c. 1640 or earlier.

Whatever the case, I would say this blade was in use for obviously a very long time, and perhaps, as a heirloom found its way into a cavalry officers sword of mid 18th century. This was very often the case for Scottish officers in the British cavalry.

[BlackcapBob]

Hello Jim, Thank you for your reply.

I have a copy of Mazansky and discounted both D10 p81 and p141 as they have additional rear guard extensions and wrist guards which are absent from my hilt. I would approximate the overall style and shape, appears to me to be similar to B1C page 67 which dates from 1610-40.

I fully accept that these hilts will have been made all over the UK and at best we are guessing, I agree that it is munitions quality and a trooper would have been please to have had it at the time. Each hilt in Mazansky are unique to the maker and no doubt the purchaser.

My rational for Deinger the elder was simply your rational in reverse, the simply style of the blade, no fullers and stamping of a bird in a shield mark and no swan mark suggests early work, if Catheys was slightly later and by the same maker then we know that the E has been dropped but the reversed N still exist, the Swan mark in addition to the bird shield stamp are his trade marks or those of his son, they also show up on the 1627 blade which I was unaware of, does it still exist it would be interesting to compare marks.

The 1640 quote decrepit maker Clemens Deinger reference could easily have been the younger, if his father, the elder worked from 1590-1617 then assuming he started his business at 30 he would be 80 or more in 1640 a gigantic age then, his son would have been well in his 50-60's more likely his son in my opinion, all assuming they are the same family.

Isnt history wonderful, as Clemens was a popular name then but not now. Cheers Bob.

[kronckew]

Thought I'd add my two cents (or maybe a tuppenny).

Interesting, I shall attempt to add a thought on the mix and matching world then. What a mess the sword mfg. was in at the end of the 18c! England over-extended on three fronts, adoption of a set 1796 pattern for swords was imposed to replace the mess to try to sort out all the variations into a more uniform mess, to increase supply which was falling behind, at least for troopers and ground pounders, Navy and officers came later. Officers had a wide leeway in selecting their swords, as they were and are still never 'issued' but bought privately.n Even std. Post 1796 blades varied amongst officers, as long as the hilts looked vaguely true to the patterns from a distance.

My 'American' revolutionary sword was originally a French dragoon sword, had part of it's brass 'basket' removed, possibly due to damage, in the transition to American service. British Royalist/Royal Dragoon swords were also made by Pooley or Pussey (sp?) in New York based on English 4-slot designs but a round grip and a urn pommel. You see replicas in the Mel Gibson film used by the wicked UK Dragoon leader. The film history is suspect, but the swords were fairly correct.

Mine was discussed HERE a while back and may be a naval variant. Oh what a tangled web we weave, etc.