Did I Make a BIG Mistake?

Robert · 26th January 2010, 12:10 AM

Well I just couldn't help myself and had to take a chance in these. My question is did I just buy a couple of wall hangers or did I get something nice? VOC on the blade in the bad pictures and the clip point caught my attention. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 Any and all help and comments are more than welcome.

Robert

Here area couple of pictures from the auction.

kahnjar1 · 26th January 2010, 02:06 AM

Hi Robert. Interesting swords. The VOC is the symbal of the Dutch East India Company, in the Dutch = Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie. Other than that I'm sorry I know nothing of the swords themselves, but IF they are what they appear to be, then I would say you got a bargain!
Regards Stuart

Robert · 26th January 2010, 02:18 AM

Hello Stuart and thank you very much for your response. I did know what the VOC stood for and with the clip point on the blades I thought that these could be something interesting. I normally collect Philippine weapons but some times I see something that looks interesting that I know nothing about and end up buying it purely on impulse. I've ended up with some real junk doing this and was just hoping that this was not going to be the case with these.

I have seen some Dutch swords with this type of tip to the blades but not with the lion hilt. Like I said before, any and all help with these will be greatly appreciated.

Robert

celtan · 26th January 2010, 03:47 AM

: )

We all have been there. And yet, after a while, you develop a third sense that attracts you to actually meaningful stuff, even though you may not consciously "know" anything about it.

That's intuitive intelligence, and it's far more effective than the usual rational process.

Nice swords!

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

...some times I see something that looks interesting that I know nothing about and end up buying it purely on impulse. I've ended up with some real junk doing this

Robert

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2010, 03:49 AM

Hi Robert,
Unbelievable, where did the seller ever get the idea these were Masonic??!!!
I guess it is inevitable that I bring up the now legendary 'Shaver Kool' thread, which ran for five years (2000-2005) and I think even ended up with a thread on 'another' forum titled 'Batavia Kool'. It had to do with what appeared to be an ivory hilt eagle or gryphon head pommel, the VOC mark, and a ship with the words SHAVER KOOL. This seemed to be a 19th century commemorative sword.

It was discovered that the Dutch naval swords would have had lionheads, according to Jan Piet Puype of the Legermuseum at Delft, Netherlands, there was a M1880 naval sword of such type I believe. These swords, and there seem to have been a number found, and it was suggested that the 'eagle' head may have been a garuda head since these were produced in Indonesia.
The Dutch navy apparantly had these issued as a sword of honor or 'pedang keharmatan', if my recollections are correct.

The VOC stamp on these is of course interpretative, and did not occur authentically on the forte, but in the blade center I believe. The stamp was only permitted by the best producers, and while a few examples are recorded of 17th century, they were not well known until 18th. The VOC was officially dissolved in 1800, superceded by Bataviaasche Genootschap, though the VOC stamp, much in the tradition of the markings on European trade blades, survived spuriously as a quality associated stamp.

These are likely Indonesian examples of ceremonial swords recalling these Dutch naval swords, with it seems an unusual klewang? type blade...the Indonesian experts here will undoubtedly clarify.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2010, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

: )

We all have been there. And yet, after a while, you develop a third sense that attracts you to actually meaningful stuff, even though you may not consciously "know" anything about it.

That's intuitive intelligence, and it's far more effective than the usual rational process.

Nice swords!

M

And very nicely said Manolo!!!

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 26th January 2010, 04:01 AM

These resemble very much the A. Coppel Dutch klewang blade .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=dutch+klewang

You got a steal .
Congrats !

Robert · 27th January 2010, 01:41 AM

Celtan, Jim and Rick, Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and for the information everyone has offered. I guess that sometimes you can get lucky even after you've had a few to many barley pops.

As far as how the seller decided that these were Masonic, he said that is what he was told when he bought them at a garage sale. I didn't find this out until after I had made him an offer and he ended the auction. I have been searching the net for more information on these to no avail. I even went so far as to read the infamous

"thread that SHALL NOT be named"

. I believe that Jim is right that these are probably some kind of Indonesian ceremonial sword. With any luck something will come to light when they arrive and I have a chance to inspect them a little better for other markings. Do you think that there is any chance that someone here might have a couple of drags for the scabbards laying around that they would like to part with?

Again let me thank you all for you help and I will be posting more pictures when these arrive.

Robert

David · 27th January 2010, 05:38 AM

No offense to European arms collectors intended Jim, but i'm not so sure that the "Indonesian Experts" spend all that much time checking stuff out over on this forum. Robert, you might want to post this over on the main forum to see is it attracts some more attention. The VOC mark looks a bit rough and suspect to me, but you never know...

Robert · 27th January 2010, 06:08 AM

Hello David, You have a good point about re-posting these on the main forum for possibly more exposure. As you said, the VOC does look a bit odd but the pictures are of such poor quality I thought that I'd wait until the swords have arrived and I have had a lot better look at them before I made any judgement on their authenticity. Do you think I should start a new thread on the Ethnographic forum on these swords now or wait until after they have arrived, or just ask to have this one moved? Thank you for your suggestion.

Robert

Ian Knight · 27th January 2010, 11:16 AM

Hello Robert,
I'm not sure about these swords I'm afraid, but you will only know in your own mind when you handle them. The blades do look very point heavy similar to many reproductions. Yours also have that rounded appearance associated with repros. They swords seem quite crudely made too. I hope that I am wrong.
I have owned a couple of Dutch klewangs and the blades toward the point were much less meaty (in thickness).
Ian

cornelistromp · 27th January 2010, 07:40 PM

Hi Robert,

the blades and scabbards are possibly of the M1898, I think around 1910. The last day that the VOC existed was 17 Mars 1798.

the VOC marked their weapons on the blade (never ricasso) with a year and the first capital of the Dutch VOC chamber. (A for Amsterdam fa).

the VOC did have lionheadhilts at the end of the 18thC but not of this type.

Iam afraid it has never belonged to the VOC but it can be a unknown rare type developed around the end of the 19thC. so still a bargain.

Regards from Holland

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

No offense to European arms collectors intended Jim, but i'm not so sure that the "Indonesian Experts" spend all that much time checking stuff out over on this forum. Robert, you might want to post this over on the main forum to see is it attracts some more attention. The VOC mark looks a bit rough and suspect to me, but you never know...

No problem at all David, and it is very true that while there are distinct differences in these fields categorically, there are always profound influences between them. This was one of the reasons I wanted to expand to a subforum which dealt more directly with European, military and other categories which exceeded the ethnographic denominator.

One of the most fascinating areas of collecting for me was always the hybrid weapons found in the colonial regions occupied by many of the European powers, for example the swords of the British Raj. The subject of the Dutch East Indies is fascinating and the cross influences and diffusion of weapons can be entirely intriguing.

I must admit that I have often shied away from the Indonesian field as it is so consumingly complex, and though I always have admired the knowledge of the specialists in these, it is a daunting area of collecting. Recently I have been learning more on these, and with the factors I have noted, can see the excitement and fascination in them.

One key note of fascination to me historically was always that these entirely exotic weapons were included in Rembrandts collection of arms, and in well known cases appeared in some of his Biblical theme paintings. It was always fascinating to see the adventure of the high seas and the VOC bringing these weapons from another world into that of this most famous artist.

Back to the swords

Ians observations are well placed, as are Cornelis' comments which are most helpful in noting the later pattern these seem to be derived from, and the comments on the VOC markings.

I think it would be good to post these independantly on the Ethnographic Forum as suggested, to include those collectors who quite likely may have seen these type items in the context of other Indonesian items. While the post itself is well placed here from the Dutch origin of the sword type, the Indonesian provenance is as well pertinant.

This situation is an excellent example of the harmonious collaboration between these seemingly different forums, and the hybridization in weapons that reflects the important influences of cross culture diffusion.

Excellent observations and comments guys!!!
All very best regards,
Jim

Robert · 3rd February 2010, 02:40 AM

I made a BIG mistake!!! Pure junk.

Coomagirl · 26th July 2011, 08:52 AM

I know this is an old thread but was wondering why your swords that you purchased were junk. I have one very much like it, with the head of eagle. It has more detail and also had Batavia writen on it as well as VOC.

26th January 2010, 12:10 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Did I Make a BIG Mistake? Well I just couldn't help myself and had to take a chance in these. My question is did I just buy a couple of wall hangers or did I get something nice? VOC on the blade in the bad pictures and the clip point caught my attention. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 Any and all help and comments are more than welcome. Robert Here area couple of pictures from the auction. Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 26th January 2010 at 01:12 AM.

27th January 2010, 11:16 AM	#11
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Hello Robert, I'm not sure about these swords I'm afraid, but you will only know in your own mind when you handle them. The blades do look very point heavy similar to many reproductions. Yours also have that rounded appearance associated with repros. They swords seem quite crudely made too. I hope that I am wrong. I have owned a couple of Dutch klewangs and the blades toward the point were much less meaty (in thickness). Ian Last edited by Ian Knight; 27th January 2010 at 05:17 PM.

27th January 2010, 07:40 PM	#12
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi Robert, the blades and scabbards are possibly of the M1898, I think around 1910. The last day that the VOC existed was 17 Mars 1798. the VOC marked their weapons on the blade (never ricasso) with a year and the first capital of the Dutch VOC chamber. (A for Amsterdam fa). the VOC did have lionheadhilts at the end of the 18thC but not of this type. Iam afraid it has never belonged to the VOC but it can be a unknown rare type developed around the end of the 19thC. so still a bargain. Regards from Holland Last edited by cornelistromp; 27th January 2010 at 09:02 PM.

26th January 2010, 02:06 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Robert. Interesting swords. The VOC is the symbal of the Dutch East India Company, in the Dutch = Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie. Other than that I'm sorry I know nothing of the swords themselves, but IF they are what they appear to be, then I would say you got a bargain! Regards Stuart

26th January 2010, 02:18 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Stuart and thank you very much for your response. I did know what the VOC stood for and with the clip point on the blades I thought that these could be something interesting. I normally collect Philippine weapons but some times I see something that looks interesting that I know nothing about and end up buying it purely on impulse. I've ended up with some real junk doing this and was just hoping that this was not going to be the case with these. I have seen some Dutch swords with this type of tip to the blades but not with the lion hilt. Like I said before, any and all help with these will be greatly appreciated. Robert

26th January 2010, 03:49 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,947	Hi Robert, Unbelievable, where did the seller ever get the idea these were Masonic??!!! I guess it is inevitable that I bring up the now legendary 'Shaver Kool' thread, which ran for five years (2000-2005) and I think even ended up with a thread on 'another' forum titled 'Batavia Kool'. It had to do with what appeared to be an ivory hilt eagle or gryphon head pommel, the VOC mark, and a ship with the words SHAVER KOOL. This seemed to be a 19th century commemorative sword. It was discovered that the Dutch naval swords would have had lionheads, according to Jan Piet Puype of the Legermuseum at Delft, Netherlands, there was a M1880 naval sword of such type I believe. These swords, and there seem to have been a number found, and it was suggested that the 'eagle' head may have been a garuda head since these were produced in Indonesia. The Dutch navy apparantly had these issued as a sword of honor or 'pedang keharmatan', if my recollections are correct. The VOC stamp on these is of course interpretative, and did not occur authentically on the forte, but in the blade center I believe. The stamp was only permitted by the best producers, and while a few examples are recorded of 17th century, they were not well known until 18th. The VOC was officially dissolved in 1800, superceded by Bataviaasche Genootschap, though the VOC stamp, much in the tradition of the markings on European trade blades, survived spuriously as a quality associated stamp. These are likely Indonesian examples of ceremonial swords recalling these Dutch naval swords, with it seems an unusual klewang? type blade...the Indonesian experts here will undoubtedly clarify. Best regards, Jim

26th January 2010, 04:01 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	These resemble very much the A. Coppel Dutch klewang blade . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=dutch+klewang You got a steal . Congrats !

27th January 2010, 01:41 AM	#8
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Celtan, Jim and Rick, Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and for the information everyone has offered. I guess that sometimes you can get lucky even after you've had a few to many barley pops. As far as how the seller decided that these were Masonic, he said that is what he was told when he bought them at a garage sale. I didn't find this out until after I had made him an offer and he ended the auction. I have been searching the net for more information on these to no avail. I even went so far as to read the infamous "thread that SHALL NOT be named" . I believe that Jim is right that these are probably some kind of Indonesian ceremonial sword. With any luck something will come to light when they arrive and I have a chance to inspect them a little better for other markings. Do you think that there is any chance that someone here might have a couple of drags for the scabbards laying around that they would like to part with? Again let me thank you all for you help and I will be posting more pictures when these arrive. Robert

27th January 2010, 05:38 AM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	No offense to European arms collectors intended Jim, but i'm not so sure that the "Indonesian Experts" spend all that much time checking stuff out over on this forum. Robert, you might want to post this over on the main forum to see is it attracts some more attention. The VOC mark looks a bit rough and suspect to me, but you never know...

27th January 2010, 06:08 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello David, You have a good point about re-posting these on the main forum for possibly more exposure. As you said, the VOC does look a bit odd but the pictures are of such poor quality I thought that I'd wait until the swords have arrived and I have had a lot better look at them before I made any judgement on their authenticity. Do you think I should start a new thread on the Ethnographic forum on these swords now or wait until after they have arrived, or just ask to have this one moved? Thank you for your suggestion. Robert

3rd February 2010, 02:40 AM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I made a BIG mistake!!! Pure junk.

26th July 2011, 08:52 AM	#15
Coomagirl Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 7	I know this is an old thread but was wondering why your swords that you purchased were junk. I have one very much like it, with the head of eagle. It has more detail and also had Batavia writen on it as well as VOC.