Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or ? - Page 2

Dmitry · 22nd November 2009, 05:41 AM

I don't think this piece has much age to it. Other than that I don't have anything to add in terms of constructive input. Perhaps someone will come up with a more definite attribution.

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2009, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Mark,
perhaps you should put this piece on the Ethnographic Forum....not everyone views the European one and you might get more input

Regards David

GRRRRR!!!!!!!

Sad....but true.

Actually this thread has gotten monumentally more mileage than the one I posted not too long ago to try talking about espada anchas. Clearly the term 'Spanish hanger' works better, as not that many out there recognize the espada ancha (=Sp. wide sword, broadly describing frontier hangers and swords in New Spain).

Dmitry, I think the attributions discussed so far are probably pretty thoroughly as much as can be assessed, and I agree with Mark's position on it overall. I think these are vintage components (and I will find that scrolled pommel strap someplace!) and assembled in the manner that those who desperately need weapons typically have found through the centuries....in any way they can.
Rather than having the appearance of a piece intended to be passed off as something it is not, it seems more a working piece, and using components as best as possible. I have an old Spanish piece comprised of the larger part of one of the Spanish dragoon blades (Do not draw me without reason etc.); the hilt of a briquet (cast brass infantry hanger); and the three bar guard of a cavalry sabre........obviously components that were incongruent, but on the frontiers, pretty didnt matter. Anybody who knows about these rugged wildernesses and those who survived in them knows..everything got recycled!

The pewter or whatever it is, metal, as Peter describes, is certainly a malleable component and the only question really is, how long ago would this particular caged grip have been fashioned? The components such as the blade (and would like to know if there are marks on the blade as 'hawkeye' David keenly observed!

and the guard are old.

Best regards,
Jim

Dmitry · 22nd November 2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

GRRRRR!!!!!!!

Dmitry, I think the attributions discussed so far are probably pretty thoroughly as much as can be assessed,

Previous page is full of attributions, from Philippines to North Africa.
It's time to produce some material evidence!

Jim McDougall · 23rd November 2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Previous page is full of attributions, from Philippines to North Africa.
It's time to produce some material evidence!

Well noted Dmitry, thats always what we hope for, and I know I'll be using whatever resources I have and can find to add whatever I might locate. I think thats the best part of all this..the learning. Mark has always had a certain acumen for finding intriquing examples that often reveal interesting histories, so I'm sure theres a unique story in this one somewhere.

I just noticed the interesting and colorful item that David posted has the scrolled D guard element at crossguard terminal and pommel cap. While this Philippine fantasy item is obviously turista stuff, these can sometimes reflect influences seen in actual weapons of the past, present or both.

I recall some years ago while resesrching the M1913 Patton swords of the U.S.Army I discovered that at some point just prior to or during WWII many of these were cut down to form fighting knives/dirks. I have never seen one of these in altered form, but must have looked formidable with the huge bowl guard!

The point is the ersatz modification of weapons into fighting forms that were more suitable for thier intended use in the time. As I mentioned earlier, village blacksmiths in Mexico constantly turned out unbelievable and often some quite ungainly appearing weapons in the colorful and turbulent history of that country. Since components of old weapons that had sometimes been around for a century or even more were used, not only were these odd pieces hard to assess, but the numbers of early period weapons diminished notably.

This quite understandable phenomenon is nothing new or unusual, and factoring in trade routes and geopolitical 'turbulence' in many cultural spheres and colonial regions, the potential for accuracy or plausibility for these type weapons becomes a daunting challenge. This is why many shy away from entering in on making observations and comments, especially here, and why such material is often slow in forthcoming.

With that noted, my compliments to Mark, for his ever amazing fortitude and optimism in acquiring these interesting and challenging items; to those who constantly 'pick up the gauntlet' ...David, Peter and Colin with plausible and well placed assessments and to you Dmitry, for extending the courtesy of posting, even though as you say, you had nothing in particular to add.

That gesture means a lot!!! And hopefully says something to the host of lurking readers out there who are afraid of posting for fear of being chastized or whatever other reasons they have .........it takes courage at times to make comments, especially on topics one might know little of.
Its called participation, and sincerely appreciated, thank you guys.

All very best regards,
Jim

Dmitry · 23rd November 2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I recall some years ago while resesrching the M1913 Patton swords of the U.S.Army I discovered that at some point just prior to or during WWII many of these were cut down to form fighting knives/dirks. I have never seen one of these in altered form, but must have looked formidable with the huge bowl guard!

Actually, the only thing that was used for these fighting daggers [not really knives, since the edges were not sharpened, if I remember correctly] were the cut down Patton sword blades. The handles were made to fit by the artisans. Basket guards were discarded.

I'll look through my sources tonight. Perhaps I'll find something simi8lar to Mark's piece.

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2009, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Actually, the only thing that was used for these fighting daggers [not really knives, since the edges were not sharpened, if I remember correctly] were the cut down Patton sword blades. The handles were made to fit by the artisans. Basket guards were discarded.

I'll look through my sources tonight. Perhaps I'll find something simi8lar to Mark's piece.

Thanks for that info Dmitry! I'll put that with my notes....I kinda wondered how effective those huge bowl guards would have been. All it said in the reference I had, from what I recall, was that these swords were cut down, but no reference specifically to blade or hilt etc.

Thank you for checking further for more on Marks piece, I wish I had access to more of my old notes!!! Its just great to have teamwork in checking into these things.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 24th November 2009, 08:39 AM

Thanks to all involved who have taken the time to tackle this tricky item. Likewise, a special thanks to you, Jim, for noting the sometimes difficult position of posting an "unknown", versus a known specimen for discussion. (This reminds me of some of the friction I created when posting an axe in the past that I thought could have been a "private purchase" boarding axe. No material exists on the subject other than conjecture based on classic naval models and what a merchantman piece might have resembled. Many would only choose to purchase a known, marked piece rather than take a chance on something that might not be the real deal. I don't mind taking chances, provided I don't spend a bundle doing it-

)

When I posted this item, I left it open for discussion and am fascinated where it has gone. I mean, at least it did garner some attention. While not over-joyed that it isn't colonial American, I do find it pleasing that it could very well be West African, either Dahomey (slave trade heavily associated with piracy) or Maghreb (piracy directly). While it is embarassing to be so far off in my initial thoughts on this piece, I will absolutely stick by my opinion as to the age of this piece. The pics (poor ones made by me, I admit) don't do it justice, nor show the true age. The wood has a patina as dark as my old boarding pike discussed recently. The blade has patina, wear, and mild pitting reminescent of several colonial pieces I possess (the marking in question is so faint, I cannot tell for sure if it is just a forging flaw or a long-worn mark- sorry!). Even the lead(?), pewter (?) has an old dull luster exactly like my Victorian-era tavern flask. I have no doubt that it is pre-1900, even if it's origin remains a little fuzzy. In any case, hope that an example of something similar out there may turn up.

Dmitry · 25th November 2009, 05:41 PM

Anthony Tirri's book on Islamic weapons doesn't have any weapons with a similar grip.

Dmitry · 28th November 2009, 03:53 PM

Jim, here's what a WWII Patton-bladed dagger looks like. There are variations, this particular one is by Anderson.

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2009, 07:41 PM

Hi Dmitry,
Thanks very much for the photos......looks like a cast bayonet hilt.
Not exactly a Fairburn-Sykes

but looks like it would do the job.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 8th January 2010, 01:37 PM

www.apacheria.com/images/ew204.jpg
www.apacheria.com/images/ew204b.jpg
www.apacheria.com/images/ew204c.jpg

OK, so is this Spanish/Mexican colonial work? It sure looks like later 19th century Mex piece to me, complete with classic hilt shape and 3 barred guard. Forgot to mention that it is listed as a Mex sword on the website. Note the turned quillon on this piece and how it compares to mine. I have since seen another late-Mex piece in an old Fagan catalog that likewise had some type of tin/nickol wrap-around. Gaudy-looking, but an espada, none-the-less. Likewise, I have been pouring through web-sites and our onw forum, ut have yet to encounter a W. African sword with a hilt like mine. This isn't a pride-thing, I assure you. I'm neutral on it's origin, I just want some closure!! (

)- Don't we all on these anomalous pieces...

M ELEY · 9th January 2010, 03:02 AM

Bump. Anyone? Does this sword I posted lend some credence to Mex/Colonial Spanish or is there any proof that this new posting is ALSO of W African origin?? Note how even the D-guard grip are similar.

Here's another Mex sword with the same curve to the quillon, similar to the one on mine-

www.ambroseantiques.com/swords/mexican.htm

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2010, 06:29 AM

Hi Mark,
Well theres another interesting example! Again, this looks very much like the makeshift work representing established traditional sword types in Mexico, but post colonial period. Sabres similar to these are described in the Adams article on espada anchas as 'round tang' espadas, and they typically had multibar guards ('gavilan'). The blade on this is of espada ancha type but later, along with the very modern elements on the hilt with copper and aluminum.
It is not hard to imagine West Africa brought into the picture with some of these types of one off pieces which are all the more difficult to identify as there are seldom parallel items with which to compare them. Without actual handling of these, by appearance they have typological characteristics of the Mexican espadas, but the very modern components create concerns about likely refurbishing in more modern times.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 9th January 2010, 09:05 AM

Hello Jim and Happy New Year!

Thanks for responding. Did Adams establish if the so-called round tang espadas were a relatively late development in these swords, or were they seen on earlier pieces as well? You are right on when you mention the trade-routes and intricate cross-over of styles between some cultures. I'm still willing to believe W African...just too bad no exact examples forthcoming.

I find it interesting that the one characteristic which really makes one pause with classifying it (the alloy grip) is also the very thing that attracted me to it and makes it stand out. Without that, it would have been an extremely plain piece, less eye catching, yet with it, an anomaly.

Seems like the next step I might take is in testing the grip for metal type. If it does turn out to be tin or pewter, I imagine it could be older vs nickel (mid- 19th) vs zinc (late 19th/early 20th). Does anyone have any recommendations for tests?

katana · 9th January 2010, 01:43 PM

Hi Mark,
personally I still feel that this sword could be African ....don't forget that the Spanish had colonised parts of coastal Western Africa, as did the Portugese. The length of blade does suggest naval useage...perhaps a direct copy of those seen carried by the ships crews and onboard Marines. As the Spanish were involved in the Slave trade ....there is the possibility that this sword, or perhaps an earlier version, was issued to a native whom 'helped' in this activity, and would be a status symbol to show the individual's rank

I must point out that you could be totally correct, but without provenance and the age of the sword being unknown, this sword will be impossible to ID. I have several weapons that fall into this 'unknown' catergory .....the 'Mystery pile'

All the best
David

M ELEY · 10th January 2010, 07:09 AM

Thanks for commenting, David. Yes, the over-all look of this piece does hint at a naval connotation. That's one of the things that attracted me to it. Regardless of its origin, I like the piece and it continues to grow on me. I do admit that a more solid classification is my style, but if most of the evidence points to W African with Spanish influence, I can live with that. I'm still interested in a more definitive time period and would argue that it is pre-1900.

Ahh yes, the infamous "mystery pile". I have pilfered from it's stockpile many a time...

celtan · 11th January 2010, 12:54 AM

Guys,

The Canary islands are very, very far away from Europe, yet rather close to Africa, and they have similar made knives.

Taking into consideration the huge involvement of England in the slave trade, it is more likely that this sword might be a native copy of a British cutlass, compounded with a Canary Islands-type hilt. ( IIRC, the Spanish did not make any Cutlasses until the Napoleonic Wars. : )

Another alternative is that it might be a Filipino weapon? I does have a certain oriental "feel" to it.

TTFN

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Mark,
personally I still feel that this sword could be African ....don't forget that the Spanish had colonised parts of coastal Western Africa, as did the Portugese. The length of blade does suggest naval useage...perhaps a direct copy of those seen carried by the ships crews and onboard Marines. As the Spanish were involved in the Slave trade ....there is the possibility that this sword, or perhaps an earlier version, was issued to a native whom 'helped' in this activity, and would be a status symbol to show the individual's rank

I must point out that you could be totally correct, but without provenance and the age of the sword being unknown, this sword will be impossible to ID. I have several weapons that fall into this 'unknown' catergory .....the 'Mystery pile'

All the best
David

M ELEY · 11th January 2010, 04:11 AM

Hello Manelo and thanks for your input,

I'll have to do a little research on the Canaries. I've seen the knife from there that resembles the plug bayonet, but never one with a guard or curved blade. Your logic of the trade routes does make sense, though.

Having looked through a million old catalogs of mine and perusing the web, I do see a more than slight resemblence with the so-called Fon war sword. Likewise, the curved short blades on some Nigerian pieces (still W Africa) could fit the bill, if not an exact fit. I still see more of a Spanish influence here with the European-style blade, D-guard hilt, strapwork grip and spiral quillon. The Spanish were in the Maghreb, but not in the Dahomey empire/area, more in Spanish Morocco. Likewise, we all know of the Spanish influence on Philippine weapons. As David succintly stated, this one might always remain in the mystery pile...

katana · 11th January 2010, 02:57 PM

Mark, the Canaries has been a Spanish colony for many years...

"....From the late fifteenth century to 1821 the Canaries underwent a process of increasing assimilation into Spanish political and cultural norms, despite periodic attacks from North Africa and from Dutch and English privateers and pirates in the seventeenth century. By the early twenty-first century the Canary Islands still formed part of the Spanish state, included in the 1978 constitution..."
http://www.answers.com/topic/africa-...canary-islands

One other thought I had about the 'spiral' design of the hilt ....Western Africans regard the snake with great 'reverence' ....it could be argued that it is symbolic (of a snake). I wondered whether there were any markings on the metal that could support this 'theory' ....however, as the metal inlay is soft, I suspect that if there were 'markings' originally, they would probably be 'rubbed' by now.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2010, 05:52 PM

Mark, I'm glad you've kept this thread going, and probably one of the best results is in emphasizing the difficulties in identification of swords which are actually Mexican, and really not technically Spanish Colonial. When dealing with weapons which are fabricated in later periods than the weapons they in essence replicate, often even using actual earlier components, it becomes extremely difficult to accurately assess them.

The 'round tang hilt' as I have mentioned, was essentially a hanger type sabre which evolved around the 1820's, and sought to add a multiple bar handguard as seen on European military sabre hilts. In "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", I believe the term used loosely was 'gavilan' to describe these hilts (the term if I recall refers to 'sprouts' as in wheat etc). As may be expected in the frontier environment in which these were fabricated, there were countless variations, and as mentioned, often using blades from surplus, trade or damaged weapons.
It would be difficult to establish definite periods of use, as popular use of these was essentially to carry forth traditional fashion from contemporary military styles and in some cases attempts to preserve the heritage of the Spanish ancestry, more from that point of view. It was a struggling young country seeking to create its autonomy and its own identity, which clearly reflected the diversity of its people.

The espada ancha itself developed primarily out of the recognition of the fashions of earlier times and the gentry of European countries, with one of the most likely influences being English hangers of the 17th century. While it evolved into essentially a utilitarian weapon of the frontier, very much like a machete, awareness of more military style weapons, and the multiple bar guard became popular, and probably carried well into the latter 19th century.
Even during the Porfiria, the long rule of Porfirio Diaz, swords were an element of the loosely styled police units known as 'Rurales', who wore many variations of sabres from vintage sabres of earlier times, to refurbished versions as described.

The scroll type quillon terminal noted is well established among examples of the espada ancha, and other sword variations in Mexico, which of course were produced throughout the 19th century.

The sword with the heavy blade and the unusual eaglehead hilt seems very much like the 'court' type dress swords (in this case with heavy fighting blade) which were often produced for officers or officials in what I would like to call 'regency type' weapons of Mexico. It seems that during post colonial (after 1821) times the attempts to create an 'Empire' beginning with Iturbide, also brought impressions of elevated stature to often relatively minor figures in outlying provinces and cities who sought to emulate regalia of the court atmospheres of Europe. The call for 'dress' fashion weapons was often answered by local blacksmiths who created traditional swords accordingly, and with in my opinion, admirable skill using materials available.

These are unfortunately often regarded dismissively by collectors, and clearly often misidentified, but in my opinion they represent the tenacious spririt of this diverse people seeking national identity in the most turbulent of times.

The final words in Bill Adams article, "The Unique Swords of Old Mexico" (1984) notes concerning these weapons that "...there is not yet much scholarship on the subject. I can see in the swords themselves much about the people who used them. For now, that is enough".

Well said about the weapons, but for me...it is never enough

and like most of my work on studying weapons, it remains 'work in progress'.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2010, 06:56 PM

I just wanted to add additional photos after the battle with that illustration from the Adams article which is addmittedly of poor quality, but shows the type of Mexican swords I am referring to, and which corresponds to the example shown by Mark.

Here is an illustration from Lee Jones article on this website on espada anchas which illustrates the scroll quillon, as well as excerpts from both Neumann and Peterson showing the hangers from which the espada ancha and subsequent 'roiund tang' espadas evolved.

Jim McDougall · 11th January 2010, 09:52 PM

Mark, concerning the link to this eaglehead sword, I wanted to add that this seems to fall into the type of 'regency' swords that were furbished for court or official dress wear. A number of years ago I was able to handle a sword that had belonged to the family of Gen. Santa Anna, and had been his of course. It seems as I recall it had a hilt with eaglehead and distinctly recall that it had something to do with Oaxaca on the blade. It was in the stored holdings of a museum in a safe, and I didn't get the opportunity for photos.

Oaxaca was contiguous to the west of the the key port of Vera Cruz, one of the extremely important ports of call in the 'Spanish Main' trade network, and perhaps this was a presentation piece to him?

In any case, it was yet another instance of the eaglehead used in these early times of the Mexican Republic.

All very best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th January 2010, 09:30 AM

Thank you gents once again for responding,

David, you have enlightened me on information on the Canaries that I was not aware of. I must read up on them, being that they were a Spanish colony and had contact with piracy, a personal favorite topic of mine. I shall do research on the knives you mentioned as well.

Jim, as always, the sheer amount of material you presented is amazing! Sorry to take up your time with this one, but it is always fascinating how many different inroads these types of mystery pieces lead down. Your knowledge of Spanish swords is abounding! I especially love the pics of the espadas with the barred hilts, similar to the one from my own collection. I do see your point on the later Mexican weapons as well. Strange that this bias exists for these 19th century types, yet not for the rapiers which still existed into this time period. Perhaps it is the legend of Zorro which kept the latter in a more "exciting" viewpoint vs the more cumbersome/primitive pieces used by the commonwealth?? In any case, Thanks so much for the material, amigo!

celtan · 12th January 2010, 12:50 PM

Eley,the Canaries are a Spanish province. I don't think that rapiers were still in vogue during the 19th C, although the small-sword did make it until the 1820s.

BTW, I don't seem to recall any roperas/rapiers ever been made in Mexico, although I believe some putting together/repairs of Blades and perhaps even hilts, imported from Spain did take place.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thank you gents once again for responding,

David, you have enlightened me on information on the Canaries that I was not aware of. I must read up on them, being that they were a Spanish colony and had contact with piracy, a personal favorite topic of mine. I shall do research on the knives you mentioned as well.

Jim, as always, the sheer amount of material you presented is amazing! Sorry to take up your time with this one, but it is always fascinating how many different inroads these types of mystery pieces lead down. Your knowledge of Spanish swords is abounding! I especially love the pics of the espadas with the barred hilts, similar to the one from my own collection. I do see your point on the later Mexican weapons as well. Strange that this bias exists for these 19th century types, yet not for the rapiers which still existed into this time period. Perhaps it is the legend of Zorro which kept the latter in a more "exciting" viewpoint vs the more cumbersome/primitive pieces used by the commonwealth?? In any case, Thanks so much for the material, amigo!

M ELEY · 12th January 2010, 01:00 PM

Hello Manolo,

I was referring to earlier rapiers (colonial Spanish, pre-1830) that were used in the later periods (I recall up to mid-century). I didn't realize, however, that no Mexican rapiers made. I recall seeing one attributed to a Mexican governor made in 1880 at an exclusive auction house via online recently. Perhaps it was more of a customized item reflecting back on a more Romantic time-period?

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2010, 01:55 PM

Hi Mark,
Thank you for the kind words, and as always, as we have discussed many times, the intriguing topic of piracy always comes into play as we look into the history of the Spanish Main. While the 'Golden Age' of piracy is placed from about 1680 through 1720, it has of course never really ceased and remained colorfully active in degree in its adventurous sense well into the 19th century. Jean Lafitte is well known as the romanticized pirate figure in his New Orleans dominion locally known as Barateria in the early years of the 1800's.
The legend of Zorro, always one of my favorites

as it is truly an amalgam of a number of adventure/romance classics coupled with local folklore and legends of banditry and outlaws. The use of the magnificent Spanish rapiers was of course purely Hollywood theatrics, but served well in carrying the popular 'swashbuckling' theme from the beginnings of motion pictures.

As Manolo has well observed, there were no rapiers of these 17th century types ever produced in New Spain in the early 19th century, the period represented in the Zorro stories. However, the Spaniards, with profound tradition pertaining to the sword, still held on to thier beloved 'cuphilt' through the 18th century, though mounted with heavier 'arming' blades by the 1760's. These type of cuphilts are known as 'Caribbean' cuphilts, as they seem to have been known primarily in those regions and Cuba as well as the South American regions. Also well known in these areas were the heavy bladed military swords in the design of multibar developed hilts known as the bilbo, dating from about 1760's and used into the 19th century. Both of these types might be classified as heavy, fighting rapiers.

I do know that there were shipments of rapier style blades going to New Spain in the early 18th century, which suggests of course that these may have been for refurbishing rapiers there. In the instance I speak of, there was a shipment of about 40 blades found in the remains of a shipwreck of that period off the coast of Panama I believe, its been quite a few years since that research.

While the actual use of rapiers with the narrow, fencing blades was pretty much gone by the 1820's, the smallsword or epee was of course well known with the gentry. I do have one of the 'court' epee style swords that seems undoubtedly to have been produced in Mexico, as noted earlier most likely in the 'regency' period between 1820's-1840's with the narrow rapier style blade, a dish guard, with crossbars beneath as vestigially placed quillons, and certainly intended as a dress element rather than a combat weapon.

I would believe that many examples of the earlier rapiers certainly did exist among the Peninsulares in New Spain who proudly maintained thier traditions and heritage, with these heirlooms as status symbols. As Mark has noted, as such, these early rapier forms certainly were present probably even into the 20th century but not worn or used. This could not have been in any significant numbers, and certainly diminished through the years as these dispersed into collections probably by the 1920's.

All very best regards,
Jim

celtan · 12th January 2010, 05:16 PM

Jim, you own one? A picture, a picture!

Hi Jim and Eley,

The Bilb(a)o was a cheap cuphilt heavy-bladed sword, made for export in Northern Spain, and meant mostly to be sent and sold in America.

Roperas/Rapiers with lasso-guards were made until 1650-80s, and the cup-hilted rapiers were made until about 1710 or so. Subsequent blades were sturdier, or used in the much shorter small-swords. They can not be considered true rapiers. For virtually all purposes, there were no rapiers in the 19th C, although some subsisted in use during the _very early_ 18th C. Granted, some small-sword blades look the part, but are much shorter.

Jim, the quality of the blade is paramount to a sword. Which is the reason this part of the sword was made only in certain places such as Toledo, Solingen, Albacete, Klingenthal, Birmingham, Barcelona, Wyra Bruk etc... and exported. I don't know of any such place in America, but I would love to hear and learn more on the subject..!

Best regards,

M

(BTW, I think some blades were also found at the "Caballo" wreck.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Mark,
Thank you for the kind words, and as always, as we have discussed many times, the intriguing topic of piracy always comes into play as we look into the history of the Spanish Main. While the 'Golden Age' of piracy is placed from about 1680 through 1720, it has of course never really ceased and remained colorfully active in degree in its adventurous sense well into the 19th century. Jean Lafitte is well known as the romanticized pirate figure in his New Orleans dominion locally known as Barateria in the early years of the 1800's.
The legend of Zorro, always one of my favorites

as it is truly an amalgam of a number of adventure/romance classics coupled with local folklore and legends of banditry and outlaws. The use of the magnificent Spanish rapiers was of course purely Hollywood theatrics, but served well in carrying the popular 'swashbuckling' theme from the beginnings of motion pictures.

As Manolo has well observed, there were no rapiers of these 17th century types ever produced in New Spain in the early 19th century, the period represented in the Zorro stories. However, the Spaniards, with profound tradition pertaining to the sword, still held on to thier beloved 'cuphilt' through the 18th century, though mounted with heavier 'arming' blades by the 1760's. These type of cuphilts are known as 'Caribbean' cuphilts, as they seem to have been known primarily in those regions and Cuba as well as the South American regions. Also well known in these areas were the heavy bladed military swords in the design of multibar developed hilts known as the bilbo, dating from about 1760's and used into the 19th century. Both of these types might be classified as heavy, fighting rapiers.

I do know that there were shipments of rapier style blades going to New Spain in the early 18th century, which suggests of course that these may have been for refurbishing rapiers there. In the instance I speak of, there was a shipment of about 40 blades found in the remains of a shipwreck of that period off the coast of Panama I believe, its been quite a few years since that research.

While the actual use of rapiers with the narrow, fencing blades was pretty much gone by the 1820's, the smallsword or epee was of course well known with the gentry. I do have one of the 'court' epee style swords that seems undoubtedly to have been produced in Mexico, as noted earlier most likely in the 'regency' period between 1820's-1840's with the narrow rapier style blade, a dish guard, with crossbars beneath as vestigially placed quillons, and certainly intended as a dress element rather than a combat weapon.

I would believe that many examples of the earlier rapiers certainly did exist among the Peninsulares in New Spain who proudly maintained thier traditions and heritage, with these heirlooms as status symbols. As Mark has noted, as such, these early rapier forms certainly were present probably even into the 20th century but not worn or used. This could not have been in any significant numbers, and certainly diminished through the years as these dispersed into collections probably by the 1920's.

All very best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2010, 08:00 PM

Hi Manolo,
Yes I do have one, but it is pretty simple, I'll try to find a photo of it if I have one in the files. Actually I havent seen it in years.
Excellent synopsis on these swords! and well put about the blades. That name 'Caballo' rings a bell, but I havent seen notes on that shipwreck in years either....all I remember was a group of blades, many with 'Jesus' on one side in the central fuller, and 'Maria' one the other same place. I'm pretty sure these blades could have been Solingen made, and possibly later than the end of the 17th century that I once assumed. They were all narrow rapier blades though.

The same situation presented itself when countless numbers of the Solingen produced 'dragoon' blades began being shipped, with 'Draw me without Reason' etc. mottos on the blades about the 1760's.

You are right about the rapiers, whose blades definitely did become much stouter into the 18th century, especially as they came into the military perspective from the extremely long civilian duelling weapons. As with terminology and its application, it is often difficult to determine with weapons and in many, if not most cases, semantics do prevail.

Very best regards,
Jim

colin henshaw · 14th January 2010, 06:04 PM

Hi

I finally laid my hands on this photo I took of a dagger from the Akan (Ghana) area in West Africa, that I owned some years ago. It can be seen the dagger has a similar style of lead inlay decoration applied to the wooden handle, including a spiral form (albeit on a smaller scale).

Another point to note is....a comparison of the West African sword posted by Fernando in August 2008 with this one...the general style and "crudeness" in both swords is quite close.

I'm say, 80% sure Mark's sword if from the forest Kingdoms of West Africa...

Regards.

M ELEY · 16th January 2010, 05:09 AM

Hello Colin and thank you so much for replying,

FINALLY! Definitive proof of lead strapwork on a W African piece. It is nice to finally find proof and catagorize these mystery pieces. Now the only question for me is...is there any connection with the pirate trade? If so, even a weak one and I'll keep the piece. Otherwise, it's off to eBay!

Many of the pirates dealt in the "Black Ivory Trade" as it was called, and I know that the Afon and Dahomey were associated with the trade. Was Ghana? Of course, the pirate/slave connection ended a century or more before slavery itself did, but again if a connection can be made, the piece stays. I'll have to do some research on Ghana. Were they as sea-faring people, like the Barbary corsairs? Research...

28th November 2009, 03:53 PM	#39
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Jim, here's what a WWII Patton-bladed dagger looks like. There are variations, this particular one is by Anderson. Attached Images

8th January 2010, 01:37 PM	#41
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Ahhh...the game is (still) afoot! www.apacheria.com/images/ew204.jpg www.apacheria.com/images/ew204b.jpg www.apacheria.com/images/ew204c.jpg OK, so is this Spanish/Mexican colonial work? It sure looks like later 19th century Mex piece to me, complete with classic hilt shape and 3 barred guard. Forgot to mention that it is listed as a Mex sword on the website. Note the turned quillon on this piece and how it compares to mine. I have since seen another late-Mex piece in an old Fagan catalog that likewise had some type of tin/nickol wrap-around. Gaudy-looking, but an espada, none-the-less. Likewise, I have been pouring through web-sites and our onw forum, ut have yet to encounter a W. African sword with a hilt like mine. This isn't a pride-thing, I assure you. I'm neutral on it's origin, I just want some closure!! ( )- Don't we all on these anomalous pieces... Last edited by M ELEY; 8th January 2010 at 01:48 PM.

9th January 2010, 03:02 AM	#42
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Bump. Anyone? Does this sword I posted lend some credence to Mex/Colonial Spanish or is there any proof that this new posting is ALSO of W African origin?? Note how even the D-guard grip are similar. Here's another Mex sword with the same curve to the quillon, similar to the one on mine- www.ambroseantiques.com/swords/mexican.htm Last edited by M ELEY; 9th January 2010 at 09:07 AM.

11th January 2010, 05:52 PM	#50
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Mark, I'm glad you've kept this thread going, and probably one of the best results is in emphasizing the difficulties in identification of swords which are actually Mexican, and really not technically Spanish Colonial. When dealing with weapons which are fabricated in later periods than the weapons they in essence replicate, often even using actual earlier components, it becomes extremely difficult to accurately assess them. The 'round tang hilt' as I have mentioned, was essentially a hanger type sabre which evolved around the 1820's, and sought to add a multiple bar handguard as seen on European military sabre hilts. In "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821", I believe the term used loosely was 'gavilan' to describe these hilts (the term if I recall refers to 'sprouts' as in wheat etc). As may be expected in the frontier environment in which these were fabricated, there were countless variations, and as mentioned, often using blades from surplus, trade or damaged weapons. It would be difficult to establish definite periods of use, as popular use of these was essentially to carry forth traditional fashion from contemporary military styles and in some cases attempts to preserve the heritage of the Spanish ancestry, more from that point of view. It was a struggling young country seeking to create its autonomy and its own identity, which clearly reflected the diversity of its people. The espada ancha itself developed primarily out of the recognition of the fashions of earlier times and the gentry of European countries, with one of the most likely influences being English hangers of the 17th century. While it evolved into essentially a utilitarian weapon of the frontier, very much like a machete, awareness of more military style weapons, and the multiple bar guard became popular, and probably carried well into the latter 19th century. Even during the Porfiria, the long rule of Porfirio Diaz, swords were an element of the loosely styled police units known as 'Rurales', who wore many variations of sabres from vintage sabres of earlier times, to refurbished versions as described. The scroll type quillon terminal noted is well established among examples of the espada ancha, and other sword variations in Mexico, which of course were produced throughout the 19th century. The sword with the heavy blade and the unusual eaglehead hilt seems very much like the 'court' type dress swords (in this case with heavy fighting blade) which were often produced for officers or officials in what I would like to call 'regency type' weapons of Mexico. It seems that during post colonial (after 1821) times the attempts to create an 'Empire' beginning with Iturbide, also brought impressions of elevated stature to often relatively minor figures in outlying provinces and cities who sought to emulate regalia of the court atmospheres of Europe. The call for 'dress' fashion weapons was often answered by local blacksmiths who created traditional swords accordingly, and with in my opinion, admirable skill using materials available. These are unfortunately often regarded dismissively by collectors, and clearly often misidentified, but in my opinion they represent the tenacious spririt of this diverse people seeking national identity in the most turbulent of times. The final words in Bill Adams article, "The Unique Swords of Old Mexico" (1984) notes concerning these weapons that "...there is not yet much scholarship on the subject. I can see in the swords themselves much about the people who used them. For now, that is enough". Well said about the weapons, but for me...it is never enough and like most of my work on studying weapons, it remains 'work in progress'. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th January 2010 at 07:30 PM.

11th January 2010, 06:56 PM	#51
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	I just wanted to add additional photos after the battle with that illustration from the Adams article which is addmittedly of poor quality, but shows the type of Mexican swords I am referring to, and which corresponds to the example shown by Mark. Here is an illustration from Lee Jones article on this website on espada anchas which illustrates the scroll quillon, as well as excerpts from both Neumann and Peterson showing the hangers from which the espada ancha and subsequent 'roiund tang' espadas evolved. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th January 2010 at 07:36 PM.

22nd November 2009, 05:41 AM	#31
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I don't think this piece has much age to it. Other than that I don't have anything to add in terms of constructive input. Perhaps someone will come up with a more definite attribution.

24th November 2009, 08:39 AM	#37
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thanks to all involved who have taken the time to tackle this tricky item. Likewise, a special thanks to you, Jim, for noting the sometimes difficult position of posting an "unknown", versus a known specimen for discussion. (This reminds me of some of the friction I created when posting an axe in the past that I thought could have been a "private purchase" boarding axe. No material exists on the subject other than conjecture based on classic naval models and what a merchantman piece might have resembled. Many would only choose to purchase a known, marked piece rather than take a chance on something that might not be the real deal. I don't mind taking chances, provided I don't spend a bundle doing it- ) When I posted this item, I left it open for discussion and am fascinated where it has gone. I mean, at least it did garner some attention. While not over-joyed that it isn't colonial American, I do find it pleasing that it could very well be West African, either Dahomey (slave trade heavily associated with piracy) or Maghreb (piracy directly). While it is embarassing to be so far off in my initial thoughts on this piece, I will absolutely stick by my opinion as to the age of this piece. The pics (poor ones made by me, I admit) don't do it justice, nor show the true age. The wood has a patina as dark as my old boarding pike discussed recently. The blade has patina, wear, and mild pitting reminescent of several colonial pieces I possess (the marking in question is so faint, I cannot tell for sure if it is just a forging flaw or a long-worn mark- sorry!). Even the lead(?), pewter (?) has an old dull luster exactly like my Victorian-era tavern flask. I have no doubt that it is pre-1900, even if it's origin remains a little fuzzy. In any case, hope that an example of something similar out there may turn up.

25th November 2009, 05:41 PM	#38
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Anthony Tirri's book on Islamic weapons doesn't have any weapons with a similar grip.

28th November 2009, 07:41 PM	#40
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Dmitry, Thanks very much for the photos......looks like a cast bayonet hilt. Not exactly a Fairburn-Sykes but looks like it would do the job. All the best, Jim

9th January 2010, 06:29 AM	#43
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, Well theres another interesting example! Again, this looks very much like the makeshift work representing established traditional sword types in Mexico, but post colonial period. Sabres similar to these are described in the Adams article on espada anchas as 'round tang' espadas, and they typically had multibar guards ('gavilan'). The blade on this is of espada ancha type but later, along with the very modern elements on the hilt with copper and aluminum. It is not hard to imagine West Africa brought into the picture with some of these types of one off pieces which are all the more difficult to identify as there are seldom parallel items with which to compare them. Without actual handling of these, by appearance they have typological characteristics of the Mexican espadas, but the very modern components create concerns about likely refurbishing in more modern times. All the best, Jim

9th January 2010, 09:05 AM	#44
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Jim and Happy New Year! Thanks for responding. Did Adams establish if the so-called round tang espadas were a relatively late development in these swords, or were they seen on earlier pieces as well? You are right on when you mention the trade-routes and intricate cross-over of styles between some cultures. I'm still willing to believe W African...just too bad no exact examples forthcoming. I find it interesting that the one characteristic which really makes one pause with classifying it (the alloy grip) is also the very thing that attracted me to it and makes it stand out. Without that, it would have been an extremely plain piece, less eye catching, yet with it, an anomaly. Seems like the next step I might take is in testing the grip for metal type. If it does turn out to be tin or pewter, I imagine it could be older vs nickel (mid- 19th) vs zinc (late 19th/early 20th). Does anyone have any recommendations for tests?

9th January 2010, 01:43 PM	#45
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Mark, personally I still feel that this sword could be African ....don't forget that the Spanish had colonised parts of coastal Western Africa, as did the Portugese. The length of blade does suggest naval useage...perhaps a direct copy of those seen carried by the ships crews and onboard Marines. As the Spanish were involved in the Slave trade ....there is the possibility that this sword, or perhaps an earlier version, was issued to a native whom 'helped' in this activity, and would be a status symbol to show the individual's rank I must point out that you could be totally correct, but without provenance and the age of the sword being unknown, this sword will be impossible to ID. I have several weapons that fall into this 'unknown' catergory .....the 'Mystery pile' All the best David

10th January 2010, 07:09 AM	#46
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thanks for commenting, David. Yes, the over-all look of this piece does hint at a naval connotation. That's one of the things that attracted me to it. Regardless of its origin, I like the piece and it continues to grow on me. I do admit that a more solid classification is my style, but if most of the evidence points to W African with Spanish influence, I can live with that. I'm still interested in a more definitive time period and would argue that it is pre-1900. Ahh yes, the infamous "mystery pile". I have pilfered from it's stockpile many a time...

11th January 2010, 04:11 AM	#48
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Manelo and thanks for your input, I'll have to do a little research on the Canaries. I've seen the knife from there that resembles the plug bayonet, but never one with a guard or curved blade. Your logic of the trade routes does make sense, though. Having looked through a million old catalogs of mine and perusing the web, I do see a more than slight resemblence with the so-called Fon war sword. Likewise, the curved short blades on some Nigerian pieces (still W Africa) could fit the bill, if not an exact fit. I still see more of a Spanish influence here with the European-style blade, D-guard hilt, strapwork grip and spiral quillon. The Spanish were in the Maghreb, but not in the Dahomey empire/area, more in Spanish Morocco. Likewise, we all know of the Spanish influence on Philippine weapons. As David succintly stated, this one might always remain in the mystery pile...

11th January 2010, 02:57 PM	#49
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Mark, the Canaries has been a Spanish colony for many years... "....From the late fifteenth century to 1821 the Canaries underwent a process of increasing assimilation into Spanish political and cultural norms, despite periodic attacks from North Africa and from Dutch and English privateers and pirates in the seventeenth century. By the early twenty-first century the Canary Islands still formed part of the Spanish state, included in the 1978 constitution..." http://www.answers.com/topic/africa-...canary-islands One other thought I had about the 'spiral' design of the hilt ....Western Africans regard the snake with great 'reverence' ....it could be argued that it is symbolic (of a snake). I wondered whether there were any markings on the metal that could support this 'theory' ....however, as the metal inlay is soft, I suspect that if there were 'markings' originally, they would probably be 'rubbed' by now. Regards David

11th January 2010, 09:52 PM	#52
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Mark, concerning the link to this eaglehead sword, I wanted to add that this seems to fall into the type of 'regency' swords that were furbished for court or official dress wear. A number of years ago I was able to handle a sword that had belonged to the family of Gen. Santa Anna, and had been his of course. It seems as I recall it had a hilt with eaglehead and distinctly recall that it had something to do with Oaxaca on the blade. It was in the stored holdings of a museum in a safe, and I didn't get the opportunity for photos. Oaxaca was contiguous to the west of the the key port of Vera Cruz, one of the extremely important ports of call in the 'Spanish Main' trade network, and perhaps this was a presentation piece to him? In any case, it was yet another instance of the eaglehead used in these early times of the Mexican Republic. All very best regards, Jim Attached Images

12th January 2010, 09:30 AM	#53
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thank you gents once again for responding, David, you have enlightened me on information on the Canaries that I was not aware of. I must read up on them, being that they were a Spanish colony and had contact with piracy, a personal favorite topic of mine. I shall do research on the knives you mentioned as well. Jim, as always, the sheer amount of material you presented is amazing! Sorry to take up your time with this one, but it is always fascinating how many different inroads these types of mystery pieces lead down. Your knowledge of Spanish swords is abounding! I especially love the pics of the espadas with the barred hilts, similar to the one from my own collection. I do see your point on the later Mexican weapons as well. Strange that this bias exists for these 19th century types, yet not for the rapiers which still existed into this time period. Perhaps it is the legend of Zorro which kept the latter in a more "exciting" viewpoint vs the more cumbersome/primitive pieces used by the commonwealth?? In any case, Thanks so much for the material, amigo!

12th January 2010, 01:00 PM	#55
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Manolo, I was referring to earlier rapiers (colonial Spanish, pre-1830) that were used in the later periods (I recall up to mid-century). I didn't realize, however, that no Mexican rapiers made. I recall seeing one attributed to a Mexican governor made in 1880 at an exclusive auction house via online recently. Perhaps it was more of a customized item reflecting back on a more Romantic time-period?

12th January 2010, 01:55 PM	#56
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Mark, Thank you for the kind words, and as always, as we have discussed many times, the intriguing topic of piracy always comes into play as we look into the history of the Spanish Main. While the 'Golden Age' of piracy is placed from about 1680 through 1720, it has of course never really ceased and remained colorfully active in degree in its adventurous sense well into the 19th century. Jean Lafitte is well known as the romanticized pirate figure in his New Orleans dominion locally known as Barateria in the early years of the 1800's. The legend of Zorro, always one of my favorites as it is truly an amalgam of a number of adventure/romance classics coupled with local folklore and legends of banditry and outlaws. The use of the magnificent Spanish rapiers was of course purely Hollywood theatrics, but served well in carrying the popular 'swashbuckling' theme from the beginnings of motion pictures. As Manolo has well observed, there were no rapiers of these 17th century types ever produced in New Spain in the early 19th century, the period represented in the Zorro stories. However, the Spaniards, with profound tradition pertaining to the sword, still held on to thier beloved 'cuphilt' through the 18th century, though mounted with heavier 'arming' blades by the 1760's. These type of cuphilts are known as 'Caribbean' cuphilts, as they seem to have been known primarily in those regions and Cuba as well as the South American regions. Also well known in these areas were the heavy bladed military swords in the design of multibar developed hilts known as the bilbo, dating from about 1760's and used into the 19th century. Both of these types might be classified as heavy, fighting rapiers. I do know that there were shipments of rapier style blades going to New Spain in the early 18th century, which suggests of course that these may have been for refurbishing rapiers there. In the instance I speak of, there was a shipment of about 40 blades found in the remains of a shipwreck of that period off the coast of Panama I believe, its been quite a few years since that research. While the actual use of rapiers with the narrow, fencing blades was pretty much gone by the 1820's, the smallsword or epee was of course well known with the gentry. I do have one of the 'court' epee style swords that seems undoubtedly to have been produced in Mexico, as noted earlier most likely in the 'regency' period between 1820's-1840's with the narrow rapier style blade, a dish guard, with crossbars beneath as vestigially placed quillons, and certainly intended as a dress element rather than a combat weapon. I would believe that many examples of the earlier rapiers certainly did exist among the Peninsulares in New Spain who proudly maintained thier traditions and heritage, with these heirlooms as status symbols. As Mark has noted, as such, these early rapier forms certainly were present probably even into the 20th century but not worn or used. This could not have been in any significant numbers, and certainly diminished through the years as these dispersed into collections probably by the 1920's. All very best regards, Jim

12th January 2010, 08:00 PM	#58
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Manolo, Yes I do have one, but it is pretty simple, I'll try to find a photo of it if I have one in the files. Actually I havent seen it in years. Excellent synopsis on these swords! and well put about the blades. That name 'Caballo' rings a bell, but I havent seen notes on that shipwreck in years either....all I remember was a group of blades, many with 'Jesus' on one side in the central fuller, and 'Maria' one the other same place. I'm pretty sure these blades could have been Solingen made, and possibly later than the end of the 17th century that I once assumed. They were all narrow rapier blades though. The same situation presented itself when countless numbers of the Solingen produced 'dragoon' blades began being shipped, with 'Draw me without Reason' etc. mottos on the blades about the 1760's. You are right about the rapiers, whose blades definitely did become much stouter into the 18th century, especially as they came into the military perspective from the extremely long civilian duelling weapons. As with terminology and its application, it is often difficult to determine with weapons and in many, if not most cases, semantics do prevail. Very best regards, Jim

14th January 2010, 06:04 PM	#59
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi I finally laid my hands on this photo I took of a dagger from the Akan (Ghana) area in West Africa, that I owned some years ago. It can be seen the dagger has a similar style of lead inlay decoration applied to the wooden handle, including a spiral form (albeit on a smaller scale). Another point to note is....a comparison of the West African sword posted by Fernando in August 2008 with this one...the general style and "crudeness" in both swords is quite close. I'm say, 80% sure Mark's sword if from the forest Kingdoms of West Africa... Regards. Attached Images

16th January 2010, 05:09 AM	#60
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Colin and thank you so much for replying, FINALLY! Definitive proof of lead strapwork on a W African piece. It is nice to finally find proof and catagorize these mystery pieces. Now the only question for me is...is there any connection with the pirate trade? If so, even a weak one and I'll keep the piece. Otherwise, it's off to eBay! Many of the pirates dealt in the "Black Ivory Trade" as it was called, and I know that the Afon and Dahomey were associated with the trade. Was Ghana? Of course, the pirate/slave connection ended a century or more before slavery itself did, but again if a connection can be made, the piece stays. I'll have to do some research on Ghana. Were they as sea-faring people, like the Barbary corsairs? Research...