Lantaka fake or real?

[Maurice]

Dear forumites,

I have found two lantakas in an antiqueshop which I like very much.
But because I have not much experience with them, maybe somebody can tell me specific things which can distinguish a good from a fake one....

Also I would like to know if there are books writen about lantaka's. Any suggestions?

Thanks for your help in advance!

Maurice

[Henk]

Maurice,

Maybe you can take some pictures of these lantakas. That would help a lot i think.

[danny1976]

Maurice,

Send the photo,s to willem .

i think he can help you with this question.

Greetz,

Danny

[David]

Originally Posted by danny1976

Send the photo,s to willem .
i think he can help you with this question.

Post the photos HERE...i'm sure we would ALL like to see them...and Willem will see them here too.

[Maurice]

David, there are living more Willems in the Netherlands.
Danny is not reffering to asomotif. But I guess the other Willem is lurking too once in a while.

Unfortunately I don't have pics. I was quick at a real old dusty antique gallery. I have seen the lantaka's lying behind a sideboard. I couldn't reach for the lantaka's to give it a closer look, but it looked like they had nice old patina.
I had very little time because I was there for other business , of which I will post pictures when I have them.

Anyone know anything about books??

Maurice

[David]

Originally Posted by Maurice

David, there are living more Willems in the Netherlands.

Well, of course there are Maurice, but given the context is it really surprising that i would assume Danny meant "our" Willem?
I would think that if you are truly interested in these lantakas that you will return to the shop and ask for a closer look. You should get some photos then and post them. I think it would be really hard to comment without seeing them.

[asomotif]

i would assume Danny meant "our" Willem?

nope, Danny means another Willem.
Let's say "Big Willem"

I have no knowledge of lantaka's at all.
i already PM -ed Maurice.

[Henk]

In that case it would be nice if Maurice would post the pictures and the comments of "Big Willem" as well.
After all we all are very curious

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Henk

In that case it would be nice if Maurice would post the pictures and the comments of "Big Willem" as well.
After all we all are very curious

Henk, I am curious too. Because when it is real old and not of the fake ones, I would like to have one of them in my collection. I am not sure if I am able to take pictures there. I will go after the holidays and see what I can do to provide photo's.
I will send the other Willem an email if he knows books of lantaka's. I will let you know.

[M ELEY]

Wow...definitely a loaded question considering there are true old ones, ones that were used only as a form of currency all the way up into the 20th century, ones that were used as wedding doweries/gifts (to my understanding, these cheaper made pieces are like symbolic pieces, like a Victorian copy of earlier piece) and, of course, modern fakes. I know very little how to spot the fakes, but it is my understanding that the older ones were typically plainer than the more modern and currency models (lacking the dolphin and dragon decorations, etc). Likewise, the ones used as true firing pieces had their trunnions set low on the pieces so thay could be used as true swivel-type rail guns (meaning, I have seen some of the modern faux-verdigris guns with trunnions directly extending from their sides, thus, not true swivels as the lantankas were intended to be). Also adding to the confusion is that the larger of the pieces were true weapons whereas the smaller ones were just signallers. What length constituting which was a fighter and which wasn't hasn't been made clear to me in any of my research. Sorry if this causes more confusion than answers-

Look for true signs of wear and aging, including inside the barrel. Perhaps look up how the new ones are given fake green patina and how to spot it.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Wow...definitely a loaded question considering there are true old ones, ones that were used only as a form of currency all the way up into the 20th century, ones that were used as wedding doweries/gifts (to my understanding, these cheaper made pieces are like symbolic pieces, like a Victorian copy of earlier piece) and, of course, modern fakes. I know very little how to spot the fakes, but it is my understanding that the older ones were typically plainer than the more modern and currency models (lacking the dolphin and dragon decorations, etc). Likewise, the ones used as true firing pieces had their trunnions set low on the pieces so thay could be used as true swivel-type rail guns (meaning, I have seen some of the modern faux-verdigris guns with trunnions directly extending from their sides, thus, not true swivels as the lantankas were intended to be). Also adding to the confusion is that the larger of the pieces were true weapons whereas the smaller ones were just signallers. What length constituting which was a fighter and which wasn't hasn't been made clear to me in any of my research. Sorry if this causes more confusion than answers-

Look for true signs of wear and aging, including inside the barrel. Perhaps look up how the new ones are given fake green patina and how to spot it.

Thank you very much for your extensive valuable information.
Can you tell something about the source of your research?
Maybe I have more questions now after reading your story, but the more questions to nail down, the more knowledge after finding the answers!

The wear and aging of wooden, bone and ivory swordhandles I can recognize.
But to recognize old bronze patina is a limitation I still have, want and need to learn. Can anyone post examples of good bronze patina, and fake bronze patina?

Rg,
Maurice

[David]

Originally Posted by Maurice

I am not sure if I am able to take pictures there. I will go after the holidays and see what I can do to provide photo's.

If you tell the shop owner that you are truly interested in them, but want to sent photos to someone more knowledgeable and he refuses to let you i would take that as a clear sign that they might be fakes and tell the guy so.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

If you tell the shop owner that you are truly interested in them, but want to sent photos to someone more knowledgeable and he refuses to let you i would take that as a clear sign that they might be fakes and tell the guy so.

David you are right about that. But that is not what I meant.
What I meant (but didn't write) is that it is a real dark antiquestorage. Almost no light is coming through the little windows, so it would be hard to show the patina.
I will contact him as soon as the holidays are over to make an appointment to shoot some pictures, because he is closed already for this year...

[Battara]

Maurice, you mentioned literature on lantaka. Unfortunately the literature is scarce. One source is THE KERIS AND OTHER WEAPONS by Gardner. There is also a book by Alex Teoh called THE MIGHT OF THE MINIATURE CANNON. Another good source of information is this link and resource: www.cannonsuperstore.com (scoll down to the cannon info and fake cannon info)

These and some research have guided me in my procuring my mini-lantaka, making sure it is not a fake and having appropriate patina. True bronze will have a brown-black patina first, then perhaps some blue green. Other aspects can be found from these resources.

Hope this helps.

[Battara]

Oh yes, I forgot, there is also this: www.bronzecannons.net/ cannon_journal.html

[kino]

Brunei Museum had published a couple of articles regarding Lantakas. One article written by Shariffuddin (sp?), and one by Tom Harrison. Sariffuddin wrote extensively ,from history and origin, classifications and terminology of Lantakas in the Brunei museum. I recall seeing a few plates from miniatures to kabau and crocodile forms.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Battara

Oh yes, I forgot, there is also this: www.bronzecannons.net/ cannon_journal.html

Jose, thank you, but I am not able to buy the e book because there are some problems with the "recipient of that paypalaccount". I did send you a pm.

Originally Posted by Kino

Brunei Museum had published a couple of articles regarding Lantakas. One article written by Shariffuddin (sp?), and one by Tom Harrison. Sariffuddin wrote extensively ,from history and origin, classifications and terminology of Lantakas in the Brunei museum. I recall seeing a few plates from miniatures to kabau and crocodile forms.

Thanks, do you know where to grab it?

[Albert]

I found this information:

BRUNEI MUSEUM JOURNAL :
Vol.1, No.1 1969
CONTENTS
............
ETHNOLOGY & PREHISTORY
5. SUNGAI LUMUT : 15th CENTURY BURIAL GROUND by Barbara Harrison & P. M.Sharifuddin
6. THE GOLDEN HOARD OF LIMBANG by Tom Harrisson
7. BRUNEI CANNON by P. M. Sharifuddin
8. BRUNEI CANNON – THEIR ROLE IN SOUTHEAST ASIA by Tom Harrison
HISTORY
9. BRUNEI AND THE MORO WAR by F. Delor Angeles
............

Publication Section
Brunei Museums Department
Main Office:
National Archives Building
Jalan Menteri Besar
Brunei Darussalam
Tel: 673-2381672/7
Tel: 673-2384371
E-mail: bmcomm@brunet.bn

http://www.museums.gov.bn/bmj69.htm

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Albert

I found this information:

BRUNEI MUSEUM JOURNAL :
Vol.1, No.1 1969
CONTENTS

7. BRUNEI CANNON by P. M. Sharifuddin
8. BRUNEI CANNON – THEIR ROLE IN SOUTHEAST ASIA by Tom Harrison

E-mail: bmcomm@brunet.bn

http://www.museums.gov.bn/bmj69.htm

Thank you very much for your help Albert.
I will send an email right away to them.

Regards,
Maurice